 Spirits & Immunity, Almost unkillable by mundane means? |
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 Oct 28 2005, 10:23 AM
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#1
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948  |
Is it just me or have spirits stayed the same from SR3 while characters & guns have drastically changed?
The immunity to normal weapons for spirits seems to include elemental effect weapons (like tazers) unless they have an allergy to it. This means that it is IMPOSSIBLE to harm a Force 5 spirit with a panther assault cannon, not to mention the fact that character attributes are almost halved compared to SR3 which means that Charisma/Willpower attacks will be somewhat weaker. Now, I can understand that dragons are supposed to be powerful (stats around 50yish or something) but aren't spirits a wee bit powerful now? It was at least possible to harm a F5 spirit before with a powerful enough handgun or an elemental effect weapon in SR3, but now??? :eek: (I looked for a similar thread but couldn't find any) |
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Oct 28 2005, 10:58 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 251 Joined: 29-April 02 Member No.: 2,659 |
Armor piercing weapons are the answer. An assault rifle loaded with EX-EX will have an AP of 3, reducing the Armor of the Force 5 spirit to 7. The DV of said rifle is 8, higher than the armor, so you do physical damage as normal. If you want to kill a spirit with a handgun, you'll need to use a Super Warhawk or APDS ammo. |
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Oct 28 2005, 11:04 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 123 Joined: 7-October 05 From: Glow City Safehouse Member No.: 7,821 |
Actually, this topic came up in of all places the bug city thread under 'Shadowrun topic'. Not exactly a logical place to look, but look up my post in topic http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=10464 I cover this common misconception from 2nd to 4th edition. Ammo and Autofire modifiers to damage count towards bypassing damage immunities. It's rather roundabout, but you are making a key mistake in your reading.
[Edit: Ack, I am beaten with a more efficient explanation! Curse you Dancer! :D] |
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Oct 28 2005, 11:23 AM
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#4
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Aah, that explains a lot, Tazers sounds nice then, or Stick-N-Shock ^_^
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Oct 28 2005, 02:09 PM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
BTW, force of personality attacks are out. They no longer exist.
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Oct 28 2005, 02:20 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 251 Joined: 29-April 02 Member No.: 2,659 |
I suppose spirits can't buy a Nonconductive option for their Immunity to Normal Weapons :) . |
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Oct 28 2005, 02:34 PM
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#7
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Pfft, good luck even hitting an Air:5.
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Oct 28 2005, 03:29 PM
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#8
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Target Group: Members Posts: 38 Joined: 25-October 05 Member No.: 7,892 |
Not to mention that it is the _modified_ damage value that has to beat their armor rating. So Full Auto kicks that damage value way up there. |
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Oct 28 2005, 03:43 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 251 Joined: 29-April 02 Member No.: 2,659 |
White Knight LMG w/gyromount firing a Wide Full Burst. -10 to dodge. |
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Oct 28 2005, 03:50 PM
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#10
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Well, that's actually a -9 to the defender's pool. But that still leaves the Air Spirit with 11 dice of defense before taking a full defense action. That misprinted Reaction Score is crazy big. Not to mention the fact that 10 points of hardened armor is going to make a humorous anecdote out of your White Knight even if it does somehow hit. -Frank |
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Oct 28 2005, 03:51 PM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Plus that -1 die pool each rime you make a defense test in a round. Just concentrate an OBSCENE amount of firepower at it. Have everyone fire two guns at it, then let the troll with the HMG go last.
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Oct 28 2005, 04:09 PM
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#12
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
If you are using regular rounds, yes. But APDS is something different with a total AP -5. Although to touch a Force 6 going Wide instead of Narrow you'd have to step up to a HMG. Beyond that a Panther XXL or AV rockets.....which gets you back to the Dodging issues with the wacked Reaction since you can't burst fire with those weapons (at least not the ones in the BBB). EDIT: Actually, i guess you can't Dodge a rocket? |
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Oct 28 2005, 04:12 PM
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#13
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
BTW if you are good enough to drop an Airburst HE Grenade right on top of the Force 5 spirit that is another way to go.
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Oct 28 2005, 04:15 PM
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#14
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Also, Naval grade weaponry might work, and subtactical nukes have shown some promise, though it might just put them to sleep.
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Oct 28 2005, 04:15 PM
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#15
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Best I've been able to come up with is a zergling horde of watchers plinking away at the thing. But, if you've got a conjurer handy already, then he can just as likely deal with the spirit directly.
Although I suppose I could outfit an army of Connection:1/Loyalty:6 Contacts with smartlinked SMGs. That's pretty much a global solution to many problems. |
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Oct 28 2005, 04:27 PM
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#16
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
A Wide Long Burst of AP from a 16"? :) |
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Oct 28 2005, 05:46 PM
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#17
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Target Group: Members Posts: 66 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,887 |
I had a force 5 spirit attack my players the other night. The mage with the weapon focus, and the adept with killing hands made short work of it. Yes, the reaction is insane, but it's only got two passes a turn.
Never bring a knife to a gun fight, and fight magic with magic. p.s. I was also reading the x's as +'s. Otherwise they'd be truly insane. |
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Oct 28 2005, 05:52 PM
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#18
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
But really, you need to do a little thinking when fighting spirits with mundane means. We all know that pouring water on a fire elemental is fun, so remember to use the proper weapons vs. the proper spirits:
Spirits of Fire: Yes, water, fire extiguishers, all of these bypass the damage reduction. removing the oxygen in a room will do it too. Smokey the bear is the natural enemy of fire spirits. If all else fails, pee on it. Spirits of water: Temperature control. Heat of any sort can boil it, Cold can freeze it. Also, tossing the ingredients for quick dry cement into the spirit will get you a neat statue rather quickly. Add enough sugar and lemon juice to it for a lemonde elemental, which in addition to being a little slower due to weight increase, are quite tasty. Spirits of air: A high powered fan will work wonders here. A high powered vaccum can be used ghostbuster style to trap the bugger. A pile of frechly raked leaves is like catnip to these buggers, and they will abandon any other pursuit in order to play with one. Like fire elementals, they are'nt much threat without any air. Finally, you could actually try to get one caught up in a combustion process, weakening them by using up the air they are made of. Spirits of earth: A good deal of water can quickly turn these into spirits of mud. Getting off the ground through levitation spells, or going off in a boat, will prevent them from following. Drop it in a lake for good measure, it will take it a while to get back out. And never, ever forget that paper beats rock. Spirits of man: These are the simplest to deal with. After all, what does every amn want? get it some beer, a barbecue, a sports broadcast to watch and a playboy, and that sucker will never bother you again. Higher level spirits may require sports cars or SUVs as well. Spirits of Beasts: Known to calm down with soothing music. Occasionally tamed by "beauty." Frequently bribeable with raw meat. If all else fails shout "SIT!" as loud as you can. |
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Oct 28 2005, 06:05 PM
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#19
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Without that change Killing Hands and Weapon Focus would have done little. It would have come down to Bannishing it, or overwhelming firepower/grenades. |
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Oct 28 2005, 06:31 PM
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#20
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
I think that's the key to the balance that should be there. |
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Oct 29 2005, 02:09 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 251 Joined: 29-April 02 Member No.: 2,659 |
White Knight with Ex-Ex rounds: DV8, AP-3. Does physical damage to a Force 5. Not very much, but it does. What do Air Spirits do, apart from being impossible to kill? Can you ignore them while you go gank the conjurer? |
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Oct 29 2005, 01:07 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 123 Joined: 7-October 05 From: Glow City Safehouse Member No.: 7,821 |
Ok, a chart giving how many net hits (as per modified damage value, page 140) you need to achieve damage vs. a force 5 spirit, so that we can see exactly how effective various weapons can be. I include the base hit nessessary to actually hit the target in this chart:
Light Pistol: 8 hits Light Pistol w\ APDS or EX-EX: 4 hits Heavy Pistol: 6 hits Heavy Pistol w\ APDS or EX-EX: 2 Hits Warhawk: 3 hits Warhawk w\ APDS or EX-EX: 1 hit! SMG: 7 hits SMG w\ APDS or EX-EX: 3 Hits Assault Rifle: 4 hits Assault Rife w\ APDS or EX-EX: 1 hit! Rifle or Shotgun(Slug): 3 hits Rifle w\ APDS or EX-EX: 1 hit! Elephant Rifle: 2 hits Elephant Rifle w\ APDS or EX-EX: 1 hit! Sniper Rifle: 1 Hit! LMG: 4 Hits LMG w\ APDS or EX-EX: 1 Hit! MMG: 3 Hits MMG w\ APDS or EX-EX: 1 Hit! HMG: 2 Hits HMG w\ APDS or EX-EX: 1 Hit! Obviously the damage has to then bypass the body+armor test but considering that armor is no longer the gaurenteed minus it was in previous editions, high powered weapons with Ex-Ex ammo such as the Warhawk, the Elephant gun, or a Sniper rifle are highly likely to do damage. A Force 5 Earth spirit for instance will only absorb on average 3 to 6 hits from any of these attacks. My end point is spirits are like anything else in Shadowrun. Bring the right gear, you have nothing to fear. |
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Oct 29 2005, 03:37 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 29-October 05 Member No.: 7,908 |
There is one problem there. The compare armor step on page on 140, and the table on 141 state that autofire does not factor into "modified damage" for determining whether damage is physical or stun. It doesn't say whether this applies to hardened armor functionality explicitly. Instead the hardened armor power on page 288 just states "modified damage." Well the question becomes which "modified" damage applies. In one interpretation the spirit is immune. In the other the spirit takes stun damage instead of physical. But there is a strong precedence from SR3 that suggests that autofire doesn't count for "modified damage" when making hardened armor comparisons. It isn't really clear. You could take the RAW approach, the spirit of precedence approach, or the rule 0 approach. So once you get past the hubris, I think the answer is consult your GM. If you disagree, work it out.
Using elemental powers is an awesome tactic as always, agreed! Unfortunately it can be difficult to evade spirits as you have described. Page 177 tells us that materialized spirit of all kinds are not subject to gravity. You need to be in that pesky of body of water! Of course, your mileage may vary. Some DMs might say that earth elementals don't care about standing body of water especially if it is a spirit of the forest or something. Though the text does suggest that most spirits except those you'd associate with flying tend to stay earthbound and just hover or float. But it never says they aboslutely have to stay earthbound. *Though, if materialized spirits are indeed immune to gravity I have to applaude them for being able to keep up with the planet in orbit as it spins??? No, seriously. It's magic. No need to over analyze. **Edited to add qualifier on "earthbound" spirits. |
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Oct 29 2005, 03:49 PM
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#24
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
well, if you don't mind force 5 lightning bolts backed up with 10 dice in spellcasting (magic + spellcasting skill, skill and magic of the spirit are equal to force), then i suppose not. of course, that is a specific optional selection for an air elemental, not an automatic one, but even so i don't think it'll be terribly uncommon either. alternatively, they can take the lightning aura thing and go into hand-to-hand combat... which i believe adds +4 to the DV of their attacks and makes them electric. add in the engulf power (which i believe air spirits automatically receive) and you begin to have things to worry about. generally speaking, a combat-oriented spirit (especially air and fire, IMO) is a very scary thing, and you don't want to leave it around for too long. oh, and "only" needing one net hit to hurt the spirit isn't all that easy... that means, assuming the spirit gets 1 hit on every 4 dice, that a force 5 air spirit gets 5 hits on a normal dodge. good luck with that. of course, if you presume those 'x' were supposed to be '+' then you get a much more reasonable situation. |
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Oct 29 2005, 04:27 PM
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#25
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Target Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 30-September 05 Member No.: 7,791 |
That's actually power. For force 5 spirit, it makes 13 dice to hit (agility (force +3) + skill (force)), DV 5 and half impact armor, but no spell defense. Force 7 spirit with DV 7 and 17 dice to hit is even more nasty. And as an air spirit, it's almost unhitable - reaction 28? thats a joke :) |
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