Is it just me or have spirits stayed the same from SR3 while characters & guns have drastically changed?

The immunity to normal weapons for spirits seems to include elemental effect weapons (like tazers) unless they have an allergy to it.

This means that it is IMPOSSIBLE to harm a Force 5 spirit with a panther assault cannon, not to mention the fact that character attributes are almost halved compared to SR3 which means that Charisma/Willpower attacks will be somewhat weaker.

Now, I can understand that dragons are supposed to be powerful (stats around 50yish or something) but aren't spirits a wee bit powerful now? It was at least possible to harm a F5 spirit before with a powerful enough handgun or an elemental effect weapon in SR3, but now???

(I looked for a similar thread but couldn't find any)

Actually, this topic came up in of all places the bug city thread under 'Shadowrun topic'. Not exactly a logical place to look, but look up my post in topic http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=10464 I cover this common misconception from 2nd to 4th edition. Ammo and Autofire modifiers to damage count towards bypassing damage immunities.

It's rather roundabout, but you are making a key mistake in your reading.

Aah, that explains a lot, Tazers sounds nice then, or Stick-N-Shock ^_^

BTW, force of personality attacks are out. They no longer exist.

Pfft, good luck even hitting an Air:5.

Plus that -1 die pool each rime you make a defense test in a round. Just concentrate an OBSCENE amount of firepower at it. Have everyone fire two guns at it, then let the troll with the HMG go last.

BTW if you are good enough to drop an Airburst HE Grenade right on top of the Force 5 spirit that is another way to go.

Also, Naval grade weaponry might work, and subtactical nukes have shown some promise, though it might just put them to sleep.

Best I've been able to come up with is a zergling horde of watchers plinking away at the thing. But, if you've got a conjurer handy already, then he can just as likely deal with the spirit directly.

Although I suppose I could outfit an army of Connection:1/Loyalty:6 Contacts with smartlinked SMGs. That's pretty much a global solution to many problems.

I had a force 5 spirit attack my players the other night. The mage with the weapon focus, and the adept with killing hands made short work of it. Yes, the reaction is insane, but it's only got two passes a turn.

Never bring a knife to a gun fight, and fight magic with magic.

p.s. I was also reading the x's as +'s. Otherwise they'd be truly insane.

But really, you need to do a little thinking when fighting spirits with mundane means. We all know that pouring water on a fire elemental is fun, so remember to use the proper weapons vs. the proper spirits:

Spirits of Fire: Yes, water, fire extiguishers, all of these bypass the damage reduction. removing the oxygen in a room will do it too. Smokey the bear is the natural enemy of fire spirits. If all else fails, pee on it.

Spirits of water: Temperature control. Heat of any sort can boil it, Cold can freeze it. Also, tossing the ingredients for quick dry cement into the spirit will get you a neat statue rather quickly. Add enough sugar and lemon juice to it for a lemonde elemental, which in addition to being a little slower due to weight increase, are quite tasty.

Spirits of air: A high powered fan will work wonders here. A high powered vaccum can be used ghostbuster style to trap the bugger. A pile of frechly raked leaves is like catnip to these buggers, and they will abandon any other pursuit in order to play with one. Like fire elementals, they are'nt much threat without any air. Finally, you could actually try to get one caught up in a combustion process, weakening them by using up the air they are made of.

Spirits of earth: A good deal of water can quickly turn these into spirits of mud. Getting off the ground through levitation spells, or going off in a boat, will prevent them from following. Drop it in a lake for good measure, it will take it a while to get back out. And never, ever forget that paper beats rock.

Spirits of man: These are the simplest to deal with. After all, what does every amn want? get it some beer, a barbecue, a sports broadcast to watch and a playboy, and that sucker will never bother you again. Higher level spirits may require sports cars or SUVs as well.

Spirits of Beasts: Known to calm down with soothing music. Occasionally tamed by "beauty." Frequently bribeable with raw meat. If all else fails shout "SIT!" as loud as you can.

Ok, a chart giving how many net hits (as per modified damage value, page 140) you need to achieve damage vs. a force 5 spirit, so that we can see exactly how effective various weapons can be. I include the base hit nessessary to actually hit the target in this chart:

Light Pistol: 8 hits

Light Pistol w\ APDS or EX-EX: 4 hits

Heavy Pistol: 6 hits

Heavy Pistol w\ APDS or EX-EX: 2 Hits

Warhawk: 3 hits

Warhawk w\ APDS or EX-EX: 1 hit!

SMG: 7 hits

SMG w\ APDS or EX-EX: 3 Hits

Assault Rifle: 4 hits

Assault Rife w\ APDS or EX-EX: 1 hit!

Rifle or Shotgun(Slug): 3 hits

Rifle w\ APDS or EX-EX: 1 hit!

Elephant Rifle: 2 hits

Elephant Rifle w\ APDS or EX-EX: 1 hit!

Sniper Rifle: 1 Hit!

LMG: 4 Hits

LMG w\ APDS or EX-EX: 1 Hit!

MMG: 3 Hits

MMG w\ APDS or EX-EX: 1 Hit!

HMG: 2 Hits

HMG w\ APDS or EX-EX: 1 Hit!

Obviously the damage has to then bypass the body+armor test but considering that armor is no longer the gaurenteed minus it was in previous editions, high powered weapons with Ex-Ex ammo such as the Warhawk, the Elephant gun, or a Sniper rifle are highly likely to do damage.

A Force 5 Earth spirit for instance will only absorb on average 3 to 6 hits from any of these attacks.

My end point is spirits are like anything else in Shadowrun. Bring the right gear, you have nothing to fear.

That is something that really should have been included in the Counterspelling or Powers section. Explicitly allowing Counterspelling of spirit powers that are magical. Magical powers are so very close to spells in function and description. They even use spell terminology, like "subject", without it being explained separately for powers.

well, yeah, i figured the bound spirit thing was kinda assumed in that... obviously for an unbound one, at most you might cast the spells and then turn 'em loose for a remote service, while you stay behind sustaining the spells.

For the record, many people play by the house rule (and I'm willing to bet soon-to-be offical errata ) that those "x"s are supposed to be "+"s when it comes to spirits.

Why do we do this? Aside from the insanity of a multiplier, In previous editions they were always +s, like for example:

Fire Elemental
B: F+4 Q: F+2(x3) S: F-2, Ext... Ext.

Air Elemental in 3rd E? Q: F+3(x4)

Those multipliers were for Running Speed which isn't used any more. They have the movement stat. So what happened? The translator either did the spirits first or last, dooming them to bugginess. And since there is no quote in the book saying, "The astral realm was flooded with awakened caffeine", It seems unlikely they would gain such a huge boost to their abilities between editions.

I indeed like the x as x...
A spirit should be nearly impossible to hin in physical combat.. It's a spirit after all... YOu can always banish it, toss a spell at it or attack it in astral combat...

Or if you're mundane...? You get taken out by the unstoppable Force 5 spirit.

In SR3 you could attack with force of personality(pg188). In SR4, it says under spirit combat "Only the truly courageous, driven, or mad have enough force of personality to allow their attacks to affect a spirit" pg177. My guess is that in order to keep the base rules simple the desided not to include the rules for force of personality combat until the SR4 magic book came out. A good rule that would probably be close to actual rule would be Willpower vs. Force, damage is Charisma/2. This would give a non-magical group at least a chance versus spirit. As it is now if you don't have a mage, or a tank, your pretty much screwed.

add in that unbound spirits can be sent on remote service, and then no longer count against the total# of spirits controlable(1 for unbound) and securtiy mages can send the spirit train at any known intruder. Summon, remote service kill the party. Summon, remote servie kill the party etc. If every 2 combat turns the party gets hit by a spirit on a rampage. well there will be pain in there future. And I'm sure the party spellcaster can have fun abusing this as well.

Heck even with sane stats using the + method this makes spirits way to powerful. Why this isn't limited to bound spirits I just don't know.

And yeah they have the flavor text for fighting with force of personality, they seem to have dropped the rules though.

How does Innate Spell (for Spirits of Man) work? If I summon a Spirit of Man with Stunbolt, it will cast it using Magic+Spellcasting dice (total Force x 2). But what Force will it cast the spell at? Will it suffer Drain? Which stats will it resist Drain with?

Thanks. Not as hard to kill as a Spirit of Air, but it looks like its got considerably more punch.

Or just replace the grenade with a remote activated bomb

Sure, there's that. I was assuming no available Demolitions skills present so went for simple prepackaged boomboom.

Also, I have a (retired) shaman who loved ye olde "Magic Fingers Delivery System" for grenades. Don't even have to risk annoying a spirit.

Since the spirit doesn't really exist before it is brought into being, can it spend an edge point to resist summoning?

-Frank

The spirit apparently exists.