 Deluded Players |
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 Nov 14 2005, 12:46 PM
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#76
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Horror  Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445  |
That pun was worth about an 18M Stun. My head is reeling from it.
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Nov 14 2005, 08:36 PM
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#77
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Target Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,884 |
Then you are wrong. This is not my opinion; you are in gross contradiction with the book. According to page 38, paragraph 3 of the SR3 Core Book (in the chapter on Game Concepts): In other words, if something in the rules doesn't quite fit or make sense to you, feel free to change it. Your statement that you believe the GM’s job consists solely of mindlessly following the rules as written breaks with canon. Please stop representing your wrong opinion as being supported by the book. |
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Nov 14 2005, 08:52 PM
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#78
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
This would seem to imply changing or ignoring the rules is an OPTION, not a REQUIREMENT. Even if it were a requirement, by virtue of following that rule, he cann ignore other rules as necessary and still say honestly the GM's job "consists solely of mindlessly following the rules as written?" It's just some rules take precedence. |
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Nov 15 2005, 01:13 AM
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#79
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
That's great an all except that all too often instead of changing something that doesn't make sense, it is now incumbent upon GMs to make stuff up because Fanpro couldn't be bothered. |
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Nov 15 2005, 01:27 AM
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#80
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Ahhh.. but I do mindlessly follow that canon rule too. And since I am mindless, then everything in the book makes sense. Once you mindlessly follow every rule in the book, everything makes sense. Once you use this canon rule to come up with your own rules, then it is no longer canon. It is a house rule now (See Breaking The Rules p94 SR3Comp). Please stop representing your wrong opinion as being supported by the book. But I thank you for correcting me: as per canon:
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Nov 18 2005, 12:58 AM
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#81
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: 29-September 02 Member No.: 3,348 |
Oh, I allowed it. Though I did repeatedly warn the player the combo was bad for the PC’s longterm survival.
That’s an interesting house rule. |
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Nov 18 2005, 04:31 AM
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#82
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
I could see doing that. Much less paperwork, and fewer potential abuses. |
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Nov 18 2005, 12:10 PM
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#83
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
It is less a house rule than "You say that orichalcum as an Uncommon Allergy is allowed? Bring me the book that says so and prove it." And because only those in the books can be successfully proven to my satisfaction.... |
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Nov 18 2005, 03:48 PM
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#84
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: 29-September 02 Member No.: 3,348 |
In the book, the examples are just that - examples, not an exhaustive list. By disallowing any allergies or phobias besides the one's listed, you're clearly using a house rule.
As to your example about the player wanting to take orichalcum as an Allergy, the listed examples are there to help you as the GM decide whether the Allergy should be Common, Uncommon, or so rare they shouldn't get points for it. Still, your house rule does avoid having to actually decide anything or risk the chance of diagreement with your players. Of course, if you aren't willing to do that at some point in the game, I don't see how you can function as a GM. |
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Nov 18 2005, 05:32 PM
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#85
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Just to clarify, my comment wasn't to say that such a drastic limitation of flaws was IMO a good idea, just that it would vastly simplify the situation.
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Nov 19 2005, 02:50 PM
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#86
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
I am not disallowing any allergies or phobias besides the one's listed, I am making them convince me that any other allergies and phobias other than those listed are, in fact, canon. Also once you decide whether or not another allergy or phobia is Common, Uncommon or unrated, then you are also using a house rule. You are in fact houseruling the phobia or allergy. |
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Nov 19 2005, 04:48 PM
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#87
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 11-November 05 From: Tri-Cities, WA - USA Member No.: 7,947 |
I'm all for house ruling in general, particularly about edges and flaws. But as much as it pains me, I have to agree with Toturi, particularly on the allergies part. There's no rule system for defining how common any particular material is, and so any ratings you give for them are inherently unreliable.
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Nov 19 2005, 04:57 PM
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#88
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Of course, you can also determine how common the materials are...
If your players have a habit of taking, say, plutonium as an allergy, suddenly plutonium slugs are all the rage. :) |
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Nov 20 2005, 01:41 AM
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#89
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: 29-September 02 Member No.: 3,348 |
Just what do you mean here by the word canon? There are plenty of real world allergies and phobias that aren't listed in the Shadowrun Companion. The rules specifically allow players to take allergies and phobias beyond the listed examples, thus players taking allergies and phobias besides the ones listed is canon, based on my understanding of the term.
Agreed. Of course, by ruling you won't allow any allergies or phobias except the listed examples, you are also making a house rule. There's nothing wrong with house rules. So long you and your players are happy with the house rule you've made about allergies and flaws, that's fine. I'd find your house ruling almost as straightjacketing as a GM ruling that the only characters I could play were the example characters on pages 65 to 80 of SR3. |
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Nov 20 2005, 01:53 PM
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#90
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727 |
There is an interesting Ed-Toturi discussion going on.
Ed, I'll just jump in the middle of the thread to say I agree with you on most of what you say about a GM's perspective of the game. Said that, I know people just like Toturi who are more comfortable when they don't have to make any possibly personal decisions about rules because in this way nobody can call them unfair. So -they say- their games-ruling is not biased. I believe thus they feel more self-confident about providing a predictable and unbiased game-setting. BTW. Are you a lawyer IRL Toturi? It is a matter of tastes. I run a game similar to Ed's, and I do use my GM fiat to approve or dissaprove any character presented to me. I have even allowed some characters who (ohmygod) ARE NOT CANON. I just made sure to have the complete group's consensus behind my ruling, plus, I use a consistent, well argumented criteria. Plus, I am very happy that your clueless player had gone to amuse people elsewhere else. The stories were funny, though. Cheers, Max |
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Nov 20 2005, 04:13 PM
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#91
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
No. Just a bookninja.
To me, it is not so much a lack of confidence, but more of the case that if I paid good money to buy the books, I might as well get my money's worth by using the books to the last printed letter. Since sometimes I(or the other GM) cannot make it to the sessions, we decided the best way not to step on each other's toes and to keep PCs portable between GMs is to follow strict canon. GM fiat is alright as long as there is 1 GM trying to keep things consistent, but when you have 2 or more GMs, GM fiat might end up be schizophrenic. His fiat might not be my fiat and we do not want to end up in a situation where a PC who may leap tall buildings in a single bound in my games can barely climb up the stairs in his. |
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Nov 21 2005, 02:37 PM
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#92
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,144 Joined: 22-September 04 Member No.: 6,690 |
The problem with this is the level of pedantry you often exhibit in your posts makes it seem like you're operating in direct violation of
which is why you seem to set so many people's teeth on edge.
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Nov 23 2005, 08:26 PM
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#93
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Target Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 2-November 04 From: Sandalwood Mountian Member No.: 6,800 |
Would like some advise on talking to another player.
He is from a AD&D background and tries to play Shadowrun as such. Kick door down, charge in, kill everything, take their stuff, and have mage heal you, type of play. This quite often ends up with him being at least seriously injured, and the rest of the party unhappy. On the two times out of the eight runs that the players character has died, the player has brought in a clone, brother, cousin, of his last character, who is angry at whom ever caused the last characters demise. So how do get the player to stop running his characters in such a way that will eventually result in a TPK before the rest of the group goes to the GM and asks that he give the player the boot? |
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Nov 23 2005, 08:30 PM
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#94
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Instead of killing him, have him get caught by the cops. Send him through a full trial, and have him sentenced to a couple of years in federal-pound-me-in-the-ass-Mr.-Troll-prison. Roleplay all of it. It's the only way for him to learn that some genres assume that there are consequences to actions.
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Nov 23 2005, 08:36 PM
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#95
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
How old is this player? How well do you know him? Is he a friend of yours, or a good friend of any of the other players? I ask because it's pretty clear he has no intention of taking the hint in game, so the only mature thing to do right now is to talk to him out of it - problem is, it sounds like it's unlikely he'll respond well to it... Still, you ought to try before giving him the boot, and my advice would basically be this: Tell him you need to talk, and then explain to him that a) Acting mindless will get him killed b) Passive-aggressive bullshit like bringing in clone characters that act worse and worse in order to get back at you won't be acceptable any longer - you're the one who does the work GMing the game, and you shouldn't have to put up with someone crapping all over it repeatedly and that c) What he's doing is making everyone else unhappy, and he needs to make at least some effort to adapt to the style of game you and your players enjoy, or take a walk. Although if you really want to handle it in-game... pass the ball over to the (unhappy) players, if they're up to it - perhaps he will get the point after the other PCs refuse to associate with his psycho characters and declare their intent to run without him. Make sure they know you're not requiring them to play along with his nonsense if they don't want to. |
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Nov 23 2005, 08:52 PM
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#96
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Target Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 2-November 04 From: Sandalwood Mountian Member No.: 6,800 |
Old enough to have played AD&D 1st ed as an adult. I am beggining to wonder, but it looks as though his friendship ratings is slipping
That's what my moneys on.
Probably the best option. Will probably be easiest with a couple of my fellow players as back-up.
Unfortunately, I am one of the unhappy players, and am beggining to wonder if this is my only option. |
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Nov 23 2005, 09:44 PM
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#97
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Target Group: Members Posts: 70 Joined: 8-November 05 From: Kwaj, RMI Member No.: 7,935 |
If this is the guy's first try at SR pull him aside and explain to him how SR is more like a D&D campaign where all the PCs are playing thief characters and that his heavy handed fighter/berserker style was counter productive.
If he cant grok that then he needs to be spanked a few times by the party to keep him in line since it doesn't seem like the GM sees what's happening. If they guy can't take the hint...knock your GM upside the head and tell him to get rid of the guy. |
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Nov 24 2005, 12:46 AM
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#98
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
Also, if he is abusing character creation with clone characters, start requiring that any new character have no associations with the previous character, and tell him that you will firmly disallow any use of out-of character or previous character knowledge.
Other than that, I agree with what others have said. Discuss his behavior with him, and let the others know that they don't have to compromise their own roleplaying (in other words, if his character acts like an amateur, they can refuse to run with him). I don't think you should come up with any elaborate "in-game" punishments, whether they fall under the category of "realistic consequences" or not. They eat up game time, and are far more likely to sour him on the game completely than to teach him anything. |
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Nov 26 2005, 02:42 AM
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#99
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
How to talk to him?
Get a job in the mental health or addictions field. Find and take a course on Motivational Interviewing techniques. Use that. GM: So how did the game go, in your opinion? Player: Well I died, that sucked. GM: It sucked that you died. P: I wish I didn't die all the time. GM: Sounds like you'd have a better time if your characters didn't die so often. P: Yeah, everybody else's characters stay alive. GM: What I'm hearing is that you want your character to be more like the others. P: No, not the same type or anything, just to be able to keep playing them. GM: I see, you want your character to behave more like the others. P: I think so.... GM: Tell me more about that. P: If I played my character like those guys did, then he wouldn't die so much. GM: And you'd have a better time. P: Yeah, I would. I want to play my character the way those guys do. GM: Sounds like you want to to learn from them how they play their characters. P: Yeah. and so on.... :P |
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Nov 26 2005, 04:54 AM
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#100
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
That reads like an RPG flavored version of the output from the old ELIZA program.
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