 Whitney-Morgan Caseless Machine Gun, Now WHAT the frag is that? |
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 Nov 6 2005, 07:05 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 87 Joined: 12-January 05 From: Brazil, RN, Natal (Also known as Amazonia) Member No.: 6,968  |
First things first: I play exclusively 2nd edition SR (mostly because I have tons of 2nd ed. material), and among the illustrations in the Gear section of the SR2 Corebook, there´s this "Whitney-Morgan Caseless Machine Gun". Well, apparently, that´s all there is to know about this thing. No mention in any of my sourcebooks, nor any else, even the Cannon Companion (that I do have).
I´m thinking of letting my players have one of these, since they see the nice illos and keep asking "how much costs one of these?". But I have no stats aside it being "caseless" and obviously rotating barrels. Is it LMG? MMG? Even HMG? My guess it´s a LMG, similar to the Vindicator, but using only caseless ammo from a special magazine, maybe integral (can caseless ammo fit into a ammo belt?). While you´re on it, I found some mentions of a "Colt 6-PAK" in the Lone Star Sourcebook, but without any comment more detailed than "being a cheap rip-off from the Vindicator". Any suggestions? I´m thinking of using this as a support weapon for the Lone Star FRT - which my players sometimes meet (twice, to be precise, and there´s a third in their way as we speak). Please help. Did I say please? |
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Nov 6 2005, 07:45 PM
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#2
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Ah yes, the Whitney Morgan Caseless Machine Gun (Not to be confused with the Whitney Morgan 30mm Automatic Assault Cannon, which was a statless piece of art from early printings of the First Edition book).
First and Second editions were kind of funny about military grade hardware (anything bigger than an LMG). I believe the designers only listed nameless generic versions of the assault cannon, the grenade launcher, the MMG, the HMG and the missile launcher because they were afraid that giving them a name would encourage players to take them even though they're really too heavy for a typical Shadowrun. Also, many of those weapons typically get vehicle mounted anyway, which tends to take away much of a weapon's individuality. (Of course, when they put out the Street Sam's Catalog, every weapon had a name, probably because with the layout of that book it would have been silly not to.) However, the art department had drawings of heavy weapons, and it would have sucked to just put a generic label like "heavy machine gun" on a piece of art, so they invented a name. Unfortunately, because they didn't put the words "heavy" or "medium" in the name, we don't know which of the two generic classes of machine gun the Whitney Morgan was supposed to be representative of. To address some of your other questions, yes, caseless ammo can be belted, and for the Colt 6-Pak I'd use the Vindicator stats, but maybe give it a longer spinup time and shorter battery life. |
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Nov 6 2005, 08:14 PM
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#3
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,010 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I don't remember the SR2 stats, but my advice would be to reduce the recoil comp (if any), cut the battery life (not the spinup time, that's critical), increase the weight, and reduce the price to 50-75%. ~J |
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Nov 6 2005, 08:34 PM
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#4
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Target Group: Members Posts: 87 Joined: 12-January 05 From: Brazil, RN, Natal (Also known as Amazonia) Member No.: 6,968 |
Yeah, that´s what I thought at first, but couldn´t accept as being the truth.
Good points. I was going to give the Colt 6-PAK exactly the same stats as the Vindicator, but with some schticks, as being cheaper and heavier, but that´s better - makes them more differenciated. The Morgan-Whitney Caseless is going to be the "generic" HMG - with rotating barrels (give her some 15 rounds/turn capacity) and 20% extra ammo capacity (her being caseless and all). |
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Nov 6 2005, 09:02 PM
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#5
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
You can forget about "spin-up time" if you want. It's a pretty rediculous concept, there more for "game balance" than anything else. Real miniguns don't work that way. They're either feeding ammo (thus firing it) or they're not; how fast the barrels are spinning has absolutely nothing to do with it. It can be rotating at 2 rpm, 6,000 rpm or anywhere in between, it doesn't matter. The thing is going to fire as long as it's being fed ammo. It takes less than half a second for the barrels to ramp up to full rotation and the weapon can be firing during that time.
The Colt 6-PAK is a kind of rip on a real minigun, the GE XM214 (which was also called the "6-PAK"). It's an electrically-driven 5.56x45mm minigun. |
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Nov 8 2005, 06:25 PM
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#6
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Target Group: Members Posts: 87 Joined: 12-January 05 From: Brazil, RN, Natal (Also known as Amazonia) Member No.: 6,968 |
Really? Crap, and I thought I knew something about guns (having two military fanboys babbling about guns non-stop full-time at every game session). Thanks for the info, Ray. I never went much into miniguns, except for some heavy stuff (like the Vulcan), but otherwise... You know what? No rotating time for everybody - that´ll settle things right.
Didn´t know that. I´m taking in account that it looks like the gun used by some corporate soldiers (I think it´s the Lone Star Sourcebook, but could easily be Corporate Shadowfiles), the one with a helicoidal magazine, calico-like. Am I wrong? |
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Nov 8 2005, 10:55 PM
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#7
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
I don't know what a "Colt 6-PAK" is supposed to look like. There's a pic on LS.83 with a super-sexy gun-toting chick cop with a rediculously small minigun, if that's what you're thinking of. I suppose you could say that would be it (I don't personally recall any "Colt 6-PAK" in canon, but that doesn't mean much). Anyway, the real XM214 looks like this. It never made it beyond experimental stage and was never adopted by any armed forces, AFAIK. |
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Nov 8 2005, 11:21 PM
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#8
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Just to make sure, that is Blaine's gun from Predator, right?
Perssek might also be referring to an image of a corpsec goon holding some kind of self-contained minigun on a staircase with a APC and floating mage in the background. |
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Nov 9 2005, 12:04 AM
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#9
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
No. His (as well as Arnold's in T2, same gun IIRC) was a modified M134, the 7.62x51mm version. Unlike the XM214, the M134 actually has been adopted by the military and is in regular use, in particular with the 160th SOAR (ala Black Hawk Down). |
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Nov 22 2005, 08:01 PM
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#10
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Target Group: Members Posts: 87 Joined: 12-January 05 From: Brazil, RN, Natal (Also known as Amazonia) Member No.: 6,968 |
EXACTLY!! |
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Nov 23 2005, 12:40 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
If you really _must_ worry about spinup time, You can use something negligible like 90% max ROF the first turn of fire.
If the rules were being true to the ROF of a minigun, they would pump out between 100-150 rounds in a single combat turn. I don't think they do. IIRC, 15 rounds per action? A RL SAW or M60 can do that. |
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Nov 23 2005, 02:22 PM
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#12
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Not that realistic firing times have anything to do with any other gun, mind you, but yeah. Miniguns should just be called "instant death suppression wands" or something, realistically.
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Nov 23 2005, 02:37 PM
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#13
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Damn, I'm good.
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Nov 23 2005, 02:39 PM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Miniguns with RoFs up to 200 rounds per CT are available in my games. Yet no players has so far shown any interest in getting one. Weird.
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Nov 23 2005, 03:47 PM
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#15
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
I would suggest they see the miniguns as the bait on the hook, the hook being that if they start using them, the NPCs will. |
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Nov 23 2005, 03:57 PM
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#16
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,948 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Maybe they are available as loot from dead NPCs? [edit] RoF: 1 pass/combat turn = 200 rounds/minute 2 passes/turn = 400rpm 3 passes/turn = 600rpm Initiative 31-40 = 800 rpm I thought the 600-800 range is the upper limit on control for a hand held weapon? [/edit] |
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Nov 23 2005, 04:37 PM
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#17
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I assure you that's not the case. NPCs have always used them when appropriate.
The "upper limit of control" is, in most cases, the absolute mechanical RoF limit of the weapon, since few weapons are manufactured such that they are uncontrollable at their cyclical rate. Some are just more controllable than others. There are some exceptions, of course -- for example, I'm not quite convinced a MAC-11 (1600rpm) or a fully automatic 10mm Auto or .45 ACP Glock (somewhere around 1300rpm) counts as "controllable" for the average shooter, but that's just because they're machine pistols without (useful) shoulder stocks -- they're meant to be quickly sprayed in the direction of the enemy at very close ranges. MP5: 800rpm MP7: 950rpm Brugger & Thomet MP9: 900rpm Uzi/Mini-Uzi/Micro-Uzi: 600rpm/950rpm/1250rpm Scorpion vz.61: 850rpm FN P90: 900rpm AK-47: 600rpm M4A1 (and M16A3?): 700-950rpm G36: 750rpm FN Minimi/M249 SAW: 750rpm (belt) / 1000rpm (magazine) FN MAG/M240 GPMG: selectable 650-750rpm/950-1000rpm (high) M60E3: 550rpm M134: selectable 2000rpm/4000rpm (max 6000rpm) XM214: selectable, up to 10000rpm |
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Nov 26 2005, 02:18 AM
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#18
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Target Group: Members Posts: 82 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,544 |
Check Plastic Warrior's Running Gear, they developed stats for the WMCMG. |
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Nov 26 2005, 04:56 AM
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#19
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Didn't they also do stats for the statless Chandler Capture 100 shotgun that was featured in early printings of the first edition core book?
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Nov 26 2005, 01:53 PM
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#20
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,948 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Thanks for the comments and RoF. I knew when I was posting that, "upper limit of control" was a poor word choice. I just knew that many automatic weapons had RoF in the range of 600-800 rounds/minute. I had even read where people complained that the mini and micro Uzi spat bullets at almost too fast a rate, that they burned through clips and had a hard time firing short bursts. I guess my point was - SR RoF do not seem so "off" as people complain. If the character is taking 3 or 4 actions a turn (initiative 21-40), then they are right in the real world range for many of the weapons RoF. The problem is if the character is only acting once a combat turn, holding down the trigger for a minute should spit out more than 200 rounds. If the system is going to break down and "shaft" someone, I would just as soon it be the ones who are probably not as dependant on the results as those built to use those weapons. Like non-rigging riggers, non-decking deckers, and non-spell sustained mages. Most other characters are going to regularly go 3 times a combat turn. |
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Nov 26 2005, 04:04 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 12-April 04 From: Lacey, Washington Member No.: 6,237 |
You could always bump the range and damage of the Colt 6PAK down to assault rifle or SMG levels. . . . Just a thought to go with the small illustration
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