LoS vs. Touch, a fight to the cast |
LoS vs. Touch, a fight to the cast |
Nov 9 2005, 03:08 PM
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#1
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 332 Joined: 19-September 05 From: Nashville, Tn Member No.: 7,761 |
Question: a spell that requires LoS to cast. Could it be cast at touch. in a blind situation, around a corned behind you back(mugging) or total dark.
i can see argument for both sides. |
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Nov 9 2005, 03:11 PM
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#2
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
IMO, yes.
~J |
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Nov 9 2005, 03:18 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
I'm not sure I understand the question. Do you mean only using touch, like if the caster is blind?
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Nov 9 2005, 03:31 PM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
IMO, if the spell is LOS, then the caster must be able to see or astrally percieve the target. So, if the mugger grabs you from behind, and you can't turn your head around to look at him, and you can't astrally percieve him [whether astral perception is limited to the direction your eyes are looking is a whole other topic], then you're screwed.
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Nov 9 2005, 03:58 PM
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#5
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I'm curious, in your opinion do Touch-range spells then have capabilities that regular spells do not? Or do you just rule that you must have LOS to target even if you're touching them for all spells?
~J |
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Nov 9 2005, 04:00 PM
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#6
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Touch is just a limited range version of LOS. Both perform the function of creating a conduit for mana between the caster and te target or subject. However, the conduit formed by touch is stronger and has less resistance, thus less drain.
Reasonably, one should be able to use either technique and benefit from the approperiate drain reduction at touch range. However, that isn't the way the spell rules work. Depending on one's interpertation one could cast spells using touch just as one can cast spells at a lower force but without drain reduction or casting spells with touch would require learning the spell as touch range. Both interpertations have their benefits and their consequences. |
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Nov 9 2005, 04:03 PM
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#7
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
:proof: ~J |
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Nov 9 2005, 06:13 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
This passage is never refuted in any of the text that talks about touch range. So a literal interpretation of the rules would indicate that
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Nov 9 2005, 06:16 PM
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#9
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Right. I'm asking if that's the way you play it.
~J |
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Nov 9 2005, 07:05 PM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
It's never actually come up, and now I no longer have a group.
If I did have a group, I'd probably ask the rest of the players out of game what they're preference was, and either go by the strict rule or house-rule according to their preference (recognizing that either way it could work for or against them in the future.) [edit]I personally don't feel strongly about this either way. If it were entirely up to me, I'd probably go with a strict interpretation, since that's the easiest defensible position. |
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Nov 9 2005, 11:40 PM
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#11
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Just FYI, there is almost no conceivable situation where someone could grab a magician from behind and the magician couldn't cast a spell on them. Why is that? Well, seeing *any* part of the target is theoretically enough to form the mana conduit needed to turn their innards into soup. Sure, if you were really playing hardball, you could rule a guy with a hand over your eyes would have the penalties for 90% cover, since 'all' you could see was his hand. But being able to look down and see a knee, a hip, a hand, his shoes... those are all you need.
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Nov 10 2005, 10:47 AM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 38 Joined: 25-October 05 Member No.: 7,892 |
Pull a large sack over their head and upper body from behind? |
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Nov 10 2005, 11:53 AM
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#13
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Burn a hole in your pants with one of the multitude of independent cybereyes (with lasers!) implanted in your cyberleg(s), then let the bastard have it.
:rotfl: |
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Nov 10 2005, 12:15 PM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 24-August 05 Member No.: 7,607 |
If the attacker has his hand over your eyes, so you can't see him, and you percieve to see his aura, would you be able to cast using LOS, or does his aura become intertwined with your own?
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Nov 10 2005, 12:24 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Earth - Europe - AGS - Norddeutscher Bund - Hannover Member No.: 7,624 |
I think I read in an errata or in the spell-construction rules that touch fullfills LoS requirement.
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Nov 10 2005, 02:23 PM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,144 Joined: 22-September 04 Member No.: 6,690 |
If he's got his hands over my eyes, I'd see if the GM would accept that arguement I have a perfect LOS to his hand... |
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Nov 10 2005, 02:28 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
So what happens when a mage is captured? If a spellcaster is bound, gagged and blindfolded, are you suggesting that she could cast spells on anyone who grabbed her and hoisted her up?
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Nov 10 2005, 02:38 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 175 Joined: 15-July 04 From: Imperial Japan Member No.: 6,483 |
IMO if you can touch someone with your hand then you can cast whatever touch spell you like in the sense that you transmit all the magic you need to your hand and it is then discharged into whatever you touch with it.
Hand over the eyes thing? Visual mod maybe, other than that I dont know. It has never come up in my games |
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Nov 10 2005, 04:03 PM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
I'd play it off as two entirely separate things. If the spell requires touch, you must touch the target, but it works even if you can't see. If the spell requires LOS, you have to see them, even if you are touching them.
And I was always under the impression that touch spells were cast through your hands. Being touched isn't good enough, your hands have to be in contact with the target. |
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Nov 10 2005, 04:08 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
Sounds like a SNAD. If I was GMing and had to make the call right now, I'd allow it.
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Nov 10 2005, 04:09 PM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
So, you wouldn't let them fulfill their requirement by touching the subject with their foot (kick)? No giving the target the 'ol kiss of death? |
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Nov 10 2005, 04:11 PM
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#22
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Not unless they specifically bought the spell with that as their touching extension, and hands not allowed. in other words, when you have a spell with a range of touch, you have a specific part of your body you have to touch with.
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Nov 10 2005, 06:45 PM
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#23
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Target Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 31-October 05 Member No.: 7,913 |
In one of the older magic books, it clarified that to hit someone with a spell you needed to perceive the target. Touching a target with your eyes closed qualified, regardless of the actual range of the spell. You didn't even have to be the one touching, someone could grab you and you could fire off the spell. How they will clarify this edition is up for grabs, but I don't think it will be too different.
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Nov 10 2005, 08:04 PM
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#24
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
That raises questions about being able to hear or smell the target, though, so I'm not entirely sad they got rid of it.
~J |
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Nov 10 2005, 08:08 PM
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#25
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
A dolphin or a wale with sorcery would probably be able to cast using eccolocation |
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