The Watcher kamikazee - Dumpshock Forums

The Watcher kamikazee, Great Dragon Killer?

tisoz View Member Profile	Nov 9 2005, 06:41 PM Post #1
Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,944 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920	A Force 1 watcher can move at roughly 1000 km/hour, or at least 800m/turn. Using the impact damage rules, this gives a damage of 80D. Why throw spells or engage in astral melee as long as you have this kind of weapon available? Cast a spell that is going to cause Physical drain and probably have only single digit power? Command the watcher to run into the target at its fast movement rate. If the target manages to dodge, the watcher is not like a stray shot, it is going to turn around and keep coming until it succeeds or is destroyed (or its time runs out, wouldn't that be fun to dodge for that long.) Trying to stop the watcher as the target may be harder than expected. What TN modifiers should spells suffer for trying to hit something moving at such speeds? Engaging in melee pretty much means the watcher is going to succeed in impacting. Astral barriers might become much more popular.

SL James View Member Profile	Nov 9 2005, 06:48 PM Post #2
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473	1. Exactly what do you propose to hit? Watchers can't materialize to hit a mundane target. 2. Do the impact damage rules mean anything in astral combat? IIRC, the do not (I don't imagine inertia or acceleration mean squat in the astral plane given instant acceleration and deceleration from or to 0). But I don't have a reference at hand.

RunnerPaul

Nov 9 2005, 06:58 PM

Post #3

Neophyte Runner

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QUOTE (SL James)

2. Do the impact damage rules mean anything in astral combat? IIRC, the do not (I don't imagine inertia or acceleration mean squat in the astral plane given instant acceleration and deceleration from or to 0). But I don't have a reference at hand.

There are rules for when a dual natured item gets force through an astral barrier such as a ward because of physical momentum or gravity affecting the physical portion of the dual natured item.

I don't think they apply to this situation because: 1.) watchers aren't dual natured, and 2.) most of the targets you'd want your watcher kamikaze to slam into aren't astral barriers.

tisoz View Member Profile	Nov 9 2005, 07:19 PM Post #4
Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,944 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920	I was going by the premise that keeps getting expounded about having a watcher travel at fast movement and pull a dual natured being along. I think it is total BS, but if it can work, so can the kamikaze hitting dual beings like Thor shots.

Backgammon View Member Profile	Nov 9 2005, 07:39 PM Post #5
Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600	Weird though: does kinetic energy exist in astral space???

hyzmarca

Nov 9 2005, 07:41 PM

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QUOTE (Backgammon)

Weird though: does kinetic energy exist in astral space???

KE = mv^2

m=0

mv^2 = 0

tisoz View Member Profile	Nov 9 2005, 07:55 PM Post #7
Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,944 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920	Since when do magic and physics need to reconcile?

Tanka

Nov 9 2005, 08:09 PM

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QUOTE (tisoz)

Since when do magic and physics need to reconcile?

They don't. Levitation, for instance, goes completely against physics.

As does everything that happens in Astral Space.

Kagetenshi

Nov 9 2005, 08:12 PM

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QUOTE (tisoz)

Since when do magic and physics need to reconcile?

Since always.

Levitation does not go against physics. Levitation (if you interpret it strictly) demonstrates large flaws in the real-world theories of physics as applied in-game, that does not mean it ignores physics.

~J

Tanka

Nov 9 2005, 08:31 PM

Post #10

Chrome to the Core

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

QUOTE (tisoz @ Nov 9 2005, 02:55 PM)

Since when do magic and physics need to reconcile?

Since always.

Levitation does not go against physics. Levitation (if you interpret it strictly) demonstrates large flaws in the real-world theories of physics as applied in-game, that does not mean it ignores physics.

~J

While this may be true, it doesn't explicity say anything about the laws of physics being totally wrong (or having major flaws) anywhere in any of the books.

So, until then, I say it ignores physics simply because it's magic. (Cheesey, ain't it?)

Fortune View Member Profile	Nov 10 2005, 12:06 AM Post #11
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	Unless the target was a Barrier, wouldn't the speeding Kamikaze Watcher™ just push the other Astral Form aside? I was under the impression that is what happened with non-fixed Astral entities.

Sunday_Gamer View Member Profile	Nov 10 2005, 12:59 AM Post #12
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 344 Joined: 28-July 03 Member No.: 5,133	One of the biggest reasons to cast spells or engage in astral melee is that if you are fully astral, you won't be summoning anything, watchers included as far as I know. Sunday PS: Yup Fortune, again, as far as I know, that's precisely what would happen. There are no collision rules in astral space, Newton and Einstein weren't invited to the party.

FrostyNSO View Member Profile	Nov 10 2005, 04:22 AM Post #13
Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550	What if the watcher was dikoted and "relaxed"?

Sandoval Smith View Member Profile	Nov 10 2005, 01:49 PM Post #14
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,144 Joined: 22-September 04 Member No.: 6,690	In Astarl Space, impacts don't matter. Does a materialized watcher actually have some sort of substance to it? I'm not that familiar with spirit-fu.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Nov 10 2005, 03:50 PM Post #15
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Watchers can't Materialize, only Manifest. ~J

PlatonicPimp View Member Profile	Nov 10 2005, 03:58 PM Post #16
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320	Still, the idea that a watcher can pick up a dual natured object (Like, say, an active focus or that nifty/keen living wood stuff) and accellerate it to tremendous speeds is kinda awesome. Nevertheless, I'd say that a watcher trying to do such a thing would find that, while they are burdened by a object with a material as well as an astral nature, they would be unable to acheive the "Speed of thought" astral speeds, only move at normal speeds in relation to the world. Because those nifty astral speeds are dependant, partially, on the fact that you have no Mass.

blakkie View Member Profile	Nov 10 2005, 04:03 PM Post #17
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263	Also air resistance could be an issue. So to fight that you'd have a small aerodynamically shaped to reduce air friction resistance. Maybe using the shape of a firearm slug? Which at 1000 km/hour would be, um, roughly a pistol shot?

Dog View Member Profile	Nov 10 2005, 04:03 PM Post #18
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025	Note that I have forwarded this thread to the ASPS and they are not happy about it. :D I know watchers are supposed to be mindless and all, but would one actually do this? How well can they aim themselves at 800m/t? (An unfamiliar watcher winks into manifestation before your eyes and looks around with confusion. "I guess I missed that critter in Reno," he mutters before reorienting himself and shooting off to the south at mach 2.)

PlatonicPimp

Nov 10 2005, 04:06 PM

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QUOTE (blakkie)

Also air resistance could be an issue. So to fight that you'd have a small aerodynamically shaped to reduce air friction resistance. Maybe using the shape of a firearm slug? Which at 1000 km/hour would be, um, roughly a pistol shot?

Yeah, but a dual natured pistol shot that you don't need to use an action to fire, and which will turn around and come back if it misses. Well worth the extra money it took to get a dual natured bullet to begin with.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Nov 10 2005, 04:14 PM Post #20
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Don't use a bullet, use something harder. If it doesn't deform you can reuse it. ~J

blakkie

Nov 10 2005, 04:24 PM

Post #21

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QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)

Yeah, but a dual natured pistol shot that you don't need to use an action to fire, and which will turn around and come back if it misses. Well worth the extra money it took to get a dual natured bullet to begin with.

You just have to make sure to carefully explain to them that they can't just fly through people and walls like they did before. :) Would it require a Simple Action to start them out? But i suppose one kicked off they could keep trying till they landed a hit. Maybe even figure out to pick the thing back up and take another run if it managed to go clear through or was deflected off by armour.

@Kagetenshi, i was thinking shape only. You definately would want it to be something very sturdy for reuse. Does True Wood have any special ironwood type hardness?

PlatonicPimp View Member Profile	Nov 10 2005, 04:35 PM Post #22
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320	I'd think true earth myself. BTW, do any foci remain dual natured even when not is active use by a mage? Anchoring foci perhaps? maybe an anchoring focus with the trigger ("When it hits a dude at high speed" with a nasty fireball on it?

TeOdio

Nov 10 2005, 05:33 PM

Post #23

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QUOTE (Dog)

(An unfamiliar watcher winks into manifestation before your eyes and looks around with confusion. "I guess I missed that critter in Reno," he mutters before reorienting himself and shooting off to the south at mach 2.)

Exactly. Tisoz, where does it talk about watchers picking up dual natured items? Is that 3rd or 4th ed? As a GM, I usually only use them for security, and I've never had a player try to use theirs to carry dual natured items.
:nuyen: :nuyen: :nuyen:

PlatonicPimp View Member Profile	Nov 10 2005, 05:36 PM Post #24
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320	Any astral being can interact "Physically" (Astrally?) with a dual natured object. A watcher is an astral being, albiet with a str. of 1. So if an object exists on the astral, it can be interacted with by the watcher, and if it is small enough, it can be picked up.

mfb

Nov 10 2005, 05:40 PM

Post #25

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QUOTE (tisoz)

Since when do magic and physics need to reconcile?

if you accept this, you've got the answer to your original question. a watcher moving at 800mpt doesn't hurt a dual being because magic and physics don't need to reconcile.

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