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tisoz
A Force 1 watcher can move at roughly 1000 km/hour, or at least 800m/turn. Using the impact damage rules, this gives a damage of 80D. Why throw spells or engage in astral melee as long as you have this kind of weapon available? Cast a spell that is going to cause Physical drain and probably have only single digit power?

Command the watcher to run into the target at its fast movement rate. If the target manages to dodge, the watcher is not like a stray shot, it is going to turn around and keep coming until it succeeds or is destroyed (or its time runs out, wouldn't that be fun to dodge for that long.)

Trying to stop the watcher as the target may be harder than expected. What TN modifiers should spells suffer for trying to hit something moving at such speeds? Engaging in melee pretty much means the watcher is going to succeed in impacting. Astral barriers might become much more popular.
SL James
1. Exactly what do you propose to hit? Watchers can't materialize to hit a mundane target.

2. Do the impact damage rules mean anything in astral combat? IIRC, the do not (I don't imagine inertia or acceleration mean squat in the astral plane given instant acceleration and deceleration from or to 0). But I don't have a reference at hand.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (SL James)
2. Do the impact damage rules mean anything in astral combat? IIRC, the do not (I don't imagine inertia or acceleration mean squat in the astral plane given instant acceleration and deceleration from or to 0). But I don't have a reference at hand.

There are rules for when a dual natured item gets force through an astral barrier such as a ward because of physical momentum or gravity affecting the physical portion of the dual natured item.

I don't think they apply to this situation because: 1.) watchers aren't dual natured, and 2.) most of the targets you'd want your watcher kamikaze to slam into aren't astral barriers.
tisoz
I was going by the premise that keeps getting expounded about having a watcher travel at fast movement and pull a dual natured being along. I think it is total BS, but if it can work, so can the kamikaze hitting dual beings like Thor shots.
Backgammon
Weird though: does kinetic energy exist in astral space???
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Backgammon)
Weird though: does kinetic energy exist in astral space???

KE = mv^2

m=0

mv^2 = 0
tisoz
Since when do magic and physics need to reconcile?
Tanka
QUOTE (tisoz)
Since when do magic and physics need to reconcile?

They don't. Levitation, for instance, goes completely against physics.

As does everything that happens in Astral Space.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (tisoz)
Since when do magic and physics need to reconcile?

Since always.

Levitation does not go against physics. Levitation (if you interpret it strictly) demonstrates large flaws in the real-world theories of physics as applied in-game, that does not mean it ignores physics.

~J
Tanka
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (tisoz @ Nov 9 2005, 02:55 PM)
Since when do magic and physics need to reconcile?

Since always.

Levitation does not go against physics. Levitation (if you interpret it strictly) demonstrates large flaws in the real-world theories of physics as applied in-game, that does not mean it ignores physics.

~J

While this may be true, it doesn't explicity say anything about the laws of physics being totally wrong (or having major flaws) anywhere in any of the books.

So, until then, I say it ignores physics simply because it's magic. (Cheesey, ain't it?)
Fortune
Unless the target was a Barrier, wouldn't the speeding Kamikaze Watcher™ just push the other Astral Form aside? I was under the impression that is what happened with non-fixed Astral entities.
Sunday_Gamer
One of the biggest reasons to cast spells or engage in astral melee is that if you are fully astral, you won't be summoning anything, watchers included as far as I know.

Sunday

PS: Yup Fortune, again, as far as I know, that's precisely what would happen. There are no collision rules in astral space, Newton and Einstein weren't invited to the party.
FrostyNSO
What if the watcher was dikoted and "relaxed"?
Sandoval Smith
In Astarl Space, impacts don't matter. Does a materialized watcher actually have some sort of substance to it? I'm not that familiar with spirit-fu.
Kagetenshi
Watchers can't Materialize, only Manifest.

~J
PlatonicPimp
Still, the idea that a watcher can pick up a dual natured object (Like, say, an active focus or that nifty/keen living wood stuff) and accellerate it to tremendous speeds is kinda awesome. Nevertheless, I'd say that a watcher trying to do such a thing would find that, while they are burdened by a object with a material as well as an astral nature, they would be unable to acheive the "Speed of thought" astral speeds, only move at normal speeds in relation to the world. Because those nifty astral speeds are dependant, partially, on the fact that you have no Mass.
blakkie
Also air resistance could be an issue. So to fight that you'd have a small aerodynamically shaped to reduce air friction resistance. Maybe using the shape of a firearm slug? Which at 1000 km/hour would be, um, roughly a pistol shot?
Dog
Note that I have forwarded this thread to the ASPS and they are not happy about it. biggrin.gif

I know watchers are supposed to be mindless and all, but would one actually do this?

How well can they aim themselves at 800m/t?
(An unfamiliar watcher winks into manifestation before your eyes and looks around with confusion. "I guess I missed that critter in Reno," he mutters before reorienting himself and shooting off to the south at mach 2.)
PlatonicPimp
QUOTE (blakkie)
Also air resistance could be an issue. So to fight that you'd have a small aerodynamically shaped to reduce air friction resistance. Maybe using the shape of a firearm slug? Which at 1000 km/hour would be, um, roughly a pistol shot?

Yeah, but a dual natured pistol shot that you don't need to use an action to fire, and which will turn around and come back if it misses. Well worth the extra money it took to get a dual natured bullet to begin with.
Kagetenshi
Don't use a bullet, use something harder. If it doesn't deform you can reuse it.

~J
blakkie
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
Yeah, but a dual natured pistol shot that you don't need to use an action to fire, and which will turn around and come back if it misses. Well worth the extra money it took to get a dual natured bullet to begin with.

You just have to make sure to carefully explain to them that they can't just fly through people and walls like they did before. smile.gif Would it require a Simple Action to start them out? But i suppose one kicked off they could keep trying till they landed a hit. Maybe even figure out to pick the thing back up and take another run if it managed to go clear through or was deflected off by armour.

@Kagetenshi, i was thinking shape only. You definately would want it to be something very sturdy for reuse. Does True Wood have any special ironwood type hardness?
PlatonicPimp
I'd think true earth myself. BTW, do any foci remain dual natured even when not is active use by a mage? Anchoring foci perhaps? maybe an anchoring focus with the trigger ("When it hits a dude at high speed" with a nasty fireball on it?
TeOdio
QUOTE (Dog)
(An unfamiliar watcher winks into manifestation before your eyes and looks around with confusion. "I guess I missed that critter in Reno," he mutters before reorienting himself and shooting off to the south at mach 2.)

Exactly. Tisoz, where does it talk about watchers picking up dual natured items? Is that 3rd or 4th ed? As a GM, I usually only use them for security, and I've never had a player try to use theirs to carry dual natured items.
nuyen.gif nuyen.gif nuyen.gif
PlatonicPimp
Any astral being can interact "Physically" (Astrally?) with a dual natured object. A watcher is an astral being, albiet with a str. of 1. So if an object exists on the astral, it can be interacted with by the watcher, and if it is small enough, it can be picked up.
mfb
QUOTE (tisoz)
Since when do magic and physics need to reconcile?

if you accept this, you've got the answer to your original question. a watcher moving at 800mpt doesn't hurt a dual being because magic and physics don't need to reconcile.
TeOdio
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
Any astral being can interact "Physically" (Astrally?) with a dual natured object. A watcher is an astral being, albiet with a str. of 1. So if an object exists on the astral, it can be interacted with by the watcher, and if it is small enough, it can be picked up.

Yeah, I got that, but it usually pertains to trying to destroy a focus, or as a duel natured being, a ghoul can fight a being on the astral. But does it actually say you can manipulate the physical part of a dual natured object/being by grabbing it etc. You can destroy the astral (magical) part of an item and it will stop working (become useless junk), and since a dual natured being is aspected to both sides of the mirror so to say, you can injure them just like an astrally projecting mage. I would just say the idea of a kamikaze watcher wouldn't work because they themselves have no mass. If a watcher flew into a great dragon it would be like a mosquito hitting an elephant. (But with 4 watchers as friends in melee you got a punchers chance that first initiative pass... until the manaball comes and wipes you all off the face of the astral earth (3rd edition rules)).
nuyen.gif nuyen.gif nuyen.gif
PlatonicPimp
Well, I'm not saying I'm not interpreting the rules a bit, but I've never seen anything that says you CAN'T lift a dual natured object from the astral. It makes sense, since they aren't two separate but related objects, but one object on two separate planes. Though now that I think about it, there is at least 2 good precidents for taking the astral substance of something and having it separate from it's physical nature. The first is astral projection, and the second is too integral to the plot of survival of the fittest that I won't mention it.

But if your astral form has the strength to lift the dual natured thing, why not let them?
tisoz
QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 9 2005, 06:06 PM)
Unless the target was a Barrier, wouldn't the speeding Kamikaze Watcher™ just push the other Astral Form aside? I was under the impression that is what happened with non-fixed Astral entities.

I agree with astral vs astral just pushing one aside.

I am thinking more of the astral vs dual natured, the dual natured being fixed on the physical plane. Then does it become a question of can the dual being astrally project if displaced due to the collision?
hyzmarca
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
But if your astral form has the strength to lift the dual natured thing, why not let them?

Astral Forms don't have strength period. They have charisma instead.
tisoz
QUOTE (TeOdio)
Tisoz, where does it talk about watchers picking up dual natured items? Is that 3rd or 4th ed? As a GM, I usually only use them for security, and I've never had a player try to use theirs to carry dual natured items.
nuyen.gif nuyen.gif nuyen.gif

A poster here on Dumpshock keeps expounding the idea of watchers being able to propel astrally perceiving/levitating magicians at the watchers fast movement rate. I think it's impossible, but no one seems to agree or have much comment.

I also remember a thread about purely astral entities carrying off active foci, which I also didn't agree with.

Just trying to point out some ramifications if things I disagree with were to be ruled canon.
tisoz
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Nov 11 2005, 11:17 AM)
But if your astral form has the strength to lift the dual natured thing, why not let them?

Astral Forms don't have strength period. They have charisma instead.

Not quite:
QUOTE
Astral Strength equals Charisma
tisoz
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (tisoz)
Since when do magic and physics need to reconcile?

if you accept this, you've got the answer to your original question. a watcher moving at 800mpt doesn't hurt a dual being because magic and physics don't need to reconcile.

Trying to input magic into physics equations is going to result in some odd values.

There is probably a sixth world study of astral physics. Just as physics starts reaching breaking points when taken to extremes (quantum, relativity and speed of light), astral space and metaplanes are extremes.
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