 Tough Calls, "Sorry, you were collateral damage." |
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 Nov 16 2005, 04:49 PM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058  |
Let me present a hypothetical scenario, taking place in Bug City. (so there's a clear idea of the stakes and circumstances)
Your team has gotten into a bit of a tight spot - your surprise attack that was meant to extract a valued contact from a lightly fortified building stumbled into an ambush. Of the three lightly armed people that entered the building "undercover", one is down - possibly dead - one is captured, and one has quietly taken out the guards watching the contact, and is trying to get him out of the building. Meanhwile, outside, the team's Strato drone was just taken down by a sniper firing AV ammo, and the rigger - who was meant to be the second part of a one-two punch - has to pull back and regroup. (and waste time diggin for a stimpatch to deal with the dumpshock) The guy who's with the contact (who happens to be a good friend of his) - armed with a pistol and a single IPE concussion grenade he smuggled in - is moving toward the front of the building stealthily (with the contact staying back and in cover) and gets the drop (surprises, in game terms) on a group consisting of five or six enemies, one of their leaders, and the teammate that had been captured. In a three meter wide hallway. Do you throw the grenade - because there were something like 20 bad guys in this place, and this is your one big chance to adjust the odds in your favor, with no backup coming anytime soon - knowing that it's guaranteed to disable your teammate, and there's a chance it might kill him? Would your character view a runner who did that sort of thing as a professional simply making the best of a bad situation, or as someone you wouldn't want to run with? |
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Nov 16 2005, 04:55 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 332 Joined: 19-September 05 From: Nashville, Tn Member No.: 7,761 |
simple. throw the grenade. nothing sounds prettyer that a grenade spoon chiming through the air. the guy should live. if not. o well. better luck next reincarnation. If he dose live. i'll have a stem pack ready for him. unless he's a mage. then... yea i'd still have a stem pack.
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Nov 16 2005, 04:58 PM
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#3
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Ooooh, hypotheticals.
What's your opinion on the teammate? Friends? Professional associates only? Tossing the grenade is the more amusing option, but the situation is hosed and your job is finished. You could toss the grenade, hope the NPCs dive for cover and then scurry through the fragged room, dragging the maybe dead teammate out the door and hope you can make a break before they regroup and pursue. -Siege |
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Nov 16 2005, 04:59 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 184 Joined: 22-September 05 Member No.: 7,770 |
I would be upset if that happened to my character, but then realize that it was my own fault for being captured and my teamate was just trying to get the job done, not specifically targeting me. However, I'd be ready with an explanation of your actions just in case the player who's character just died doesn't take it well.
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Nov 16 2005, 05:46 PM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 57 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,767 |
Shoot the hostage. Or toss the grenade, in this case. Though the idea of throwing the grenade without arming it first just to try and make the enemies scatter is rather amusing, let's face facts: if they don't scatter then you're dead meat, and these guys sound professional enough to notice you didn't pull the pin.
If you don't toss the grenade, the captured teammate is more or less dead anyway, right? Do you have anyone else on the way to save him? Besides, you've got the contact to think about, and your rigger at least is going to be pretty pissed if you went through all this only to get him killed in an avoidable firefight. |
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Nov 16 2005, 05:48 PM
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#6
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Professional usually means you grab cover first and then wait to see if the pin was left in.
Professionals know what grenades do and know what they can't do if they get caught in the grenade AoE. -Siege |
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Nov 16 2005, 06:10 PM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Yes. My hypothetical character, with a hypothetical grenade, during a session we hypothetically played yesterday. ;) IMO, tossing it was the right choice - the guy who was captured not only survived it, but managed to stay conscious, which is an interesting revelation about the character (This is what happens when you have a creative GM and decide to make a character with maxed-out Amnesia...), roughly half the opposition is down as a result (including a man in charge that was probably a physad or something), we should be able to easily turn the tables on the other half, and since we are in Bug City post-quarantine, the explosions don't really blow the mission. (in fact, the plan was for the rigger to hit from the outside, with the characters inside attacking at the same time - a covert extraction in force. :P) What I was curious about mostly was not just whether other people thought it was the right thing - or only thing - to do given the circumstances, but how they'd view this sort of thing in terms of team dynamics / professional runner code, etc. |
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Nov 16 2005, 06:13 PM
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#8
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
It's a tough call. But glad to hear the other character made it out.
Normally, you try and not leave a guy behind. But... for this case where he's captured... it really depends on the mindset between your characters. |
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Nov 16 2005, 06:34 PM
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#9
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Considering all the influencing factors are subjectively important, it's really a matter of opinion.
For what it may be worth, I would've tossed that sucker too. -Siege |
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Nov 16 2005, 06:37 PM
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#10
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Toss the 'nade, every time. PC's get access to karma pool and Hand of God, why waste time on guilt?
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Nov 16 2005, 06:39 PM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
In one of my games, Killing other PCs, even in a bad situation, would be frown apon. It's a bit metagaming, but you don't cut your losses on people who are members of your team. You go to the wall fro them. Better in my opinion to have the whole party die trying to get everyone out alive than to kill a hostage party member just to geek some guards. If all else fails, you give back the dude you extracted in exchange, and call the run a loss.
If the other players can deal with the fact that you geeked their character, then that's fine. I've actually been in mob game where my character was killed by the rest of the party for blowing one too many deals, and it was fine. But as a rule, you should aviod killing other PCs at any cost. |
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Nov 16 2005, 06:42 PM
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#12
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Ya know, of all the places I don't want to be captured, Bug City is pretty high on that list.
-Siege |
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Nov 16 2005, 06:50 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
For what it's worth, if it had been a real grenade, I almost certainly wouldn't have thrown it.
Since it was a concussion grenade, I knew there was a serious chance of physical injury to the teammate because of the very restricted space, but figured we all had better chances of making it out alive if I threw it than if I tried to shoot it out. |
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Nov 16 2005, 06:57 PM
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#14
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
My answer would depend upon the character. If I were the guy in the middle, assuming I had had a good relationship with either the player or the character beforehand, I wouldn't really hold a grudge against the player. Really, either course is justified. Given most of the characters I have right now though, that grenade would be in the air.
(One wonders if you couldn't set it up with a tripwire as a mine, in which case you could hit fewer bad guys, but perhaps keep the hostage from getting as hurt. Thinking of different solutions is always good, when you have the time.) |
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Nov 16 2005, 07:58 PM
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#15
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Target Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: 2-October 05 Member No.: 7,799 |
Knowing the folks I play with, they would've used a white phosphorous grenade if they had one!
Seriously though, if it was a concussion grenade I would toss it. |
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Nov 16 2005, 07:59 PM
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#16
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
Too bad the character couldn't smuggle in an extra grenade, this one a flashbang or such.
Well, this scenario reinforces the principle of having one set of lethal weaponry and another for non-lethal if there's room. |
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Nov 16 2005, 08:02 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 908 Joined: 31-March 05 From: Georgia Member No.: 7,270 |
Throw the grenade...
best circumstances.. teammate survives and is rescued.. worse case scenario teammate dies, but the enemy can't get any information out of him. |
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Nov 16 2005, 08:21 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 565 Joined: 7-January 04 Member No.: 5,965 |
considering that the bad guys are either bugs, or working for bugs? if i was the hostage, i know id prefer a gernade sandwitch to getting eaten by the bugs. Fate worse than death, that. you throw your gernades, and pray they work.
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Nov 16 2005, 08:51 PM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Well, that's definitely the worst case scenario in Bug City, but not necessarily a given. The setup was this: The guy we were trying to bust out is a surgeon. (one of my character's Level 2 contacts) After the quarantine happened, some enterprising goons basically took him prisoner at his medical practice, and started selling his services to anyone who could pay them in food or ammo. We'd have wanted the guy freed regardless, but even more so in this situation, since we had a number of people in need of medical attention, and expected to have more, the way things were going. My character has a transducer, so when he came in pretending to be a patient (carrying a backpack with food as payment, with the concussion grenade hidden among cans of Aztecola), the doc caught on instantly and plugged into my datajack for "diagnostics", allowing us to have a detailed conversation under the noses of the guards... Which did reveal, among other things, that while one guy is visibly in charge, all the real decisions seem to come down from his "associate" who stays out of sight at all times, and is supposed to be a magician. Which of course makes you wonder what other, ulterior motives they might have had for taking over a medical practice. |
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Nov 16 2005, 09:22 PM
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#20
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
smooth. I like that part where ya had the conversation under their noses.
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Nov 16 2005, 09:30 PM
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#21
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Just a concussion grenade? Throw that thing!
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Nov 16 2005, 10:01 PM
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#22
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Indeed. :notworthy: Anyway, to the question. I'll sometimes go with the colateral damage option even when it's really only about equal tactical value to other options. So, umm, i'm a bit puzzled where "Tough Calls" ties into this? Did you leave out something, like the captured guy owed you a LOT of money that you wouldn't be able to collect if he died? :grinbig:
You GM was playing it by the book, the Amnesia PC didn't know this would happen? |
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Nov 16 2005, 10:11 PM
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#23
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
Well the full on five point amnesia flaw says that the PC doesn't know their past, skills or abilities and that the GM should write up the character so that goes for their attributes and edges and flaws as well. Kind of drastic putting him up against a concussion grenade in crowded territory as a way to figure out what kind of body rating and cyber/bioware he might have, but needs must when the devil drives I suppose. :) |
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Nov 16 2005, 10:13 PM
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#24
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Generally, Bug City + Captured = Kill them just to be safe unless the characters know how long it takes to invest a flesh form then it is kill him then it equies Kill them just to be safe if they've been captured longer than that time.
Am I the only one who doubts the wisdom of rescuing this surgeon contact? |
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Nov 16 2005, 10:38 PM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Damn, Y'all are cold. Forgive me if I don't feel safe running with a bunch of people who would kill me for a tactical advantage.
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