 Upcoming books, Runner Havens' cities |
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 Nov 23 2005, 08:17 PM
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#76
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King of the Hobos  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127  |
Speaking of Pomorya, what exactly is up with the place? Any of the resident Germans care to shed some light on this demi-Tir since I don't have access to SoE currently, and well from the sounds of it the German language version is a lot more detailed? Thanks. |
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Nov 23 2005, 08:24 PM
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#77
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 141 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Austin, TX CAS Member No.: 1,097 |
So I will not be getting any of the fluff that is core to supplying the correct feel to my players. Thanks. |
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Nov 23 2005, 08:44 PM
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#78
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
What gets me is that the whole philosophy of "the English-speaking market has little interest in translations of the German material" seems to be based on poor sales of a single sourcebook several years ago.
One datapoint does not a trend make. And even if it did, products signifigantly different than a sourcebook such as Die 6. Welt, are also not considered for translation. |
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Nov 23 2005, 10:04 PM
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#79
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
That's not what I said, but feel free to interpret it whichever way you like. The new location book format will focus and detail two major sprawls per book (note: FanPro D is expanding Hamburg exceptionally for this one to provide a core German setting. The German language chapter is unlikely to be ready for translating or even finished when Runner Havens goes to press). To round off the book and offer alternative settings and plots, several other sprawls are given a necessarily less detailed look. These other sprawls are meant to broaden horizons, offer alternative backdrops and open a greater spectrum of possibilities. All I can say is that, if the Shadows of writeups for smaller countries weren't descriptive and atmospheric enough for you, then the backup sprawls chapter probably won't work for you either. If on the other hand, you liked Lisbon in SoE or Indonesia in SoA then you'll probably like this part of the book. |
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Nov 23 2005, 10:23 PM
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#80
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
You got me wrong on that: i never wanted to change the past of the german setting. All i want is a change of the current setting. History is moving forward, so could the setting. We already had some changes in the setting (as M :nuyen: STIC mentioned), so why isn't it possible to overthrow the current setting and install a new one? I.e. a new revolution sponsored (indirectly) by Lofwyr which brings a new facist police-state to Germany. Maybe the northern half of the country resists that change and has a new governemt of its own. But please get rid of all the small countries, which give the ADL the impression of a would-be-north america. |
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Nov 23 2005, 10:25 PM
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#81
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Why another Tir-state? Why? Because America got its state and even those bloody irish, so why not Germany? Everything the USA has is cool. They have an elven state? We can as well! It's an economic backwater, it's too small and it's ridicoulus. |
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Nov 23 2005, 10:48 PM
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#82
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
And you got me wrong if you understood I was saying that there won't be change. We've been seeing gradual change and I'm sure it will continue. Personally I've got a lot of faith in the current German crew, a lot of the changes I've seen have been for the better and the discussions I've had with them are promising. The reason I've been mentioning writing in or starting a petition, is that unless you make your voice heard (in a reasonable and constructive manner) change might not be in the direction you (meaning the fanbase unsatisfied with the current status quo) are looking for. |
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Nov 23 2005, 10:59 PM
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#83
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
How does that not apply to Tir Na Nog? It has 3.7 Million People. Total. That's smaller than such cities as New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, DC, San Jose, Philidelphia, Dallas, Boston, Detroit, Miami, Houston, Atlanta, Seattle, and Phoenix. It's slightly larger than Minneapolis, but only barely. The only reason anyone gives a crap what happens in Tir Na Nog is that it is apparently filled with Immortal Elves, so people who want to see Earthdawn easter eggs can pore through the Tir writeup looking for them. From any practical social, economic, or military standpoint it's completely irrelevent. Having the nation of Tir Na Nog angered at you would be substantially less of an inconvenience to a corporation or organization than being banned in Atlanta. Pepsi cares more about Coke's iron grip in Georgia than it does about what side Tir Na Nog takes in the cola wars. So the Germans wanted an excuse to drop Earthdawn easter eggs in their own language. I don't care, that sounds pretty reasonable. -Frank |
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Nov 23 2005, 11:05 PM
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#84
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
That's only one part of the facts i dislike about Pom. Tir Na Nog is Ireland, and Ireland is somehow... more fitting to have a fairy-tale kingdom ;) Not that it's the best-wrritten piece of canon, but it was nice. And it didn't appear just to be there because "the amis have one too!". |
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Nov 23 2005, 11:08 PM
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#85
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Ah, i see. It was just because you wrote of "retroactively" changings and that made me wonder.
Ok, i'll do so tomorrow. Maybe i even might get a reply... but i'm still having the opinion that the german crew needs to do a lot of work in personal PR. Actually a good part of the german players don't like their work too much. And the crappy translated last books don't help to change that opinion. |
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Nov 23 2005, 11:16 PM
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#86
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Now don't get me wrong - I don't really know what I'm talking about. I haven't read the German-only source material. But Grimm's Fairy Tales are actually from the modern-day BRD, so having a "fairy tale kingdom" somewhere in there seems pretty reasonable. Did they put it in a dumb place? Wear white socks after Labor Day? What does the German-only stuff actually say about the Pom that's so angering? As someone who hasn't seen this material, the argument needs to be framed a bit better before I can even see where different sides are coming from. -Frank |
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Nov 24 2005, 02:57 AM
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#87
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
My question is why do the German (speaking) consumers get three full blown settings in Runner Havens as opposed to only the two that the rest of us pay for? Why do the German speaking people need a bonus incentive that the rest of us don't? Why do they deserve bonus material more than the rest of us? And I still see no real reason for Die 6 Welt (the Sixth World) to be a German-only release. Even if it does contain other German-only information ... in fact, especially because it contains such info. As for the suggestion that I learn German, I don't believe there should be the need. Shadowrun is printed in both German and English, and the information should be available to those people that speak either language. |
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Nov 24 2005, 06:36 AM
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#88
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Earth - Europe - AGS - Norddeutscher Bund - Hannover Member No.: 7,624 |
For me it is quite difficult to tell what is wrong with Pomorya. It does not have the right look and feel. The historical background of the other two dendelion-eater kingdoms is much more convinving concerning the metaplot and the Earthdawn-Shadowrun crossover. Pomorya leaves the impression, that the German authors simply saw Tir Tairngire and Tir Na Nog (and I don't give a frag on the correct spelling of those, never liked these fragging dandelion-eaters after all) and said "Uuuuuh! Pixypixies...me wanna too pixypixies!". It is as unfitting to German all day reality as all those small feuding city states are. I would say 95% of all Germans see themselves as Germans first (well in fact nationality isn't veryimportant for most of us) and second as Saxons, Lower Saxons, Hamburgers ;) ... Okay, the Bavarians are different. But who really cares? :D If you take a look at modern day Germany in my opinion there are two distinct possibilities. The first is the development of some kind of "economy-first" police state dominated by corporations. Our former secretary of the interior, Otto Schilly, paved the way for that by introducing lots of new laws cutting down important civil rights and by fighting out his personal feud with the press. The new conservative government will as sure as hell not be any better. The second possibility is, that over the next 50 years the neo-conservatives will put so much pressure onto the people, that the country explodes and the people start fighting back. That could lead to something a bit similar to the official SR background, but surely not to that crap. EDIT: Germany, even medieval Germany has nothing to do with what is described in Grimm's Fairy Tails. Especially because the english translations are more than only bad. :( |
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Nov 24 2005, 07:43 AM
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#89
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
So the problem with Pomorya is that it isn't written convincingly? That's a lethally severe problem, but one which ironically can be fixed without really changing the setting at all, just by writing it more convincingly. A good example of that in action is the contrast between the old Tir Na Nog book and the much shorter and punchier segment in SoE. The basic framework is the same, but with all the digressions about the unstoppable economic and military power of frickin Ireland backed up by a feudal economic system removed, it's a whole lot easier to take.
As to Germans feeling pretty German rather than Saxon (or whatever), yes that's true. And it may surprise you to know that most Californians feel like they are Americans first and so on and so forth. The Awakening brought out sessessionism worldwide, not just in the US. With the military power of individuals randomly advanced to meaningful status, the smaller scale disputes became bigger deals. The US broke up into three major chunks and ended up losing a bunch of minor crap to sorcerous cabals in doing so. Having an occassional medium-sized country break into a bunch of pieces and then refederate doesn't sound too weird. Not as weird as India managing to hold on to Nagaland and Tamil-Nadu! So far the complaints I'm hearing seem to be: 1. Somebody didn't look at a topographical map when they wrote which parts of a city were underwater. Fix: redraw flood map after looking at actual topography. 2. Pomorya was poorly and unconvincingly written. Fix: Rewrite in a more convincing fashion. 3. Someone got excited and moved the Reichstag to a post-office box in Bristol. Fix: Either ignore it entirely, or write up a tirade about how now the Reichstag meet in a castle large enough only for the parliament and security, and all staffers are forced to stay on the mainland and communicate through the Matrix. It was probably instituted as a security procedure. 4. Someone had the audacity to make a Catholic theocratic local government in one of the more Catholic areas of Deutschland. Fix: Is that even a problem? I'm confused. Now, I've also seen some people complaining about Berlin being an Anarchist mess that makes no sense. What does it actually do that makes no sense? This being the Awakened world, I would think that a number of major cities would at various times declare new Shanghai/Paris style communes. At least for a while. -Frank |
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Nov 24 2005, 07:57 AM
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#90
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i have to agree with Fortune. i don't think anyone's begrudging german-speaking SR players german-centric play material; indeed, with a fan community as large as theirs apparently is, i'd be upset if there weren't material being produced that caters to them. however, we certainly are jealous of them for getting material that we don't get. it's not like german-language SR exists in some kind of vaccuum, and doesn't interact with english-language SR--just look at Shockwaves. the game that english-speaking players get is being impacted by information they don't have access to. i think that's something worth being upset about.
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Nov 24 2005, 08:06 AM
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#91
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Earth - Europe - AGS - Norddeutscher Bund - Hannover Member No.: 7,624 |
A possible solution could be offering translations over Holo Streets. Perhaps something Fanpro US already has in mind?
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Nov 24 2005, 08:27 AM
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#92
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I doubt it. That would make people happy, and we can't have that!
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Nov 24 2005, 08:41 AM
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#93
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
The German SR community is indeed large - in Germany the status of SR is quite different from the USA. As I understand it, in the US Shadowrun is one RPG among many, with D&D as the unmatched market leader. In Germany, FanPro's The Dark Eye fantasy system has been the market leader for the last 20 years and it's likely to stay that way. Next come D&D, SR and WoD, with the exact order changing every year. Nearly every German RPG gamer has at one point tried SR or at least knows about the game, you will find SR games at every convention, SR books at every FLGS, SR novels* in most bookstores. (*Aside from translated English novels ~20 original German SR novels have been published in the last years.) |
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Nov 24 2005, 08:48 AM
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#94
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Earth - Europe - AGS - Norddeutscher Bund - Hannover Member No.: 7,624 |
I think the WoD isn't as popular as before the restart. In fact I don't know a single regular group playing the new edition of Vampire. Also the relatively large Vampire LARP community did not change to the new background.
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Nov 24 2005, 08:59 AM
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#95
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
The short answers (that others have already mentioned) are: a) because they have to wait several more months for the German version when the English version is already available to them; b) because the language barrier isn't as much of a problem for them as it is for Americans, and as such they deserve extra local focus material for buying German production rather than English version (FanPro D needs to make a living too); c) because they pay slightly more for their version of the book; and d) because every licensee is allowed to produce their own content (if the new French license goes ahead I wouldn't be surprised to see a similar add-ons there); e) finally (to quote MYSTIC) given that the Hamburg was picked for a 2000-word writeup in the English version it would be considered "barely enough to introduce someone not familiar with the older AGS books to the city and would be completely dissatisfying to someone whos already knows Germany". Then there's relevance and mileage: is a 5$ (USD) hike in the price worth it to find out there's a bar called Empire in St. Pauli, a fence named Anya in the harbor district and the name of the Senator for Public Health - when the main plots, characters and forces about town will be in the shorter version anyway (a price increase should also take into account the context of buying 4 new core SR books in the next year and a couple of other sourcebooks). There's also the issue of practicality: besides adding 5$ (USD) to the price tag, given writing and translation time the add-on would delay production up to 4-5 months (further). I want to reiterate this, because it seems to be something people are missing: The German add-on is always written after the English drafts are finished. This makes it impossible to include them in an English book even were a translation worthwhile commercially. Then there is also the fact that until Christian Lonsing took over the line the material produced for Shadowrun D was often incompatible with canon (or just plain munchkin). Finally, there is the matter that even though canon is mostly integrated now, a lot of the German material is littered with local references, old characters and plot details (that date back to the FASA years, this is the case with Shockwaves, but also B:ADL/T:AGS and Die 6 Welt) that would be coming completely out of the blue - and are for the most part pretty useless without the context. Going to the trouble of translating, properly editing the English, explaining such references or replacing them, weeding out "legacy"inconsistencies, explaining who many of the major German players mentioned are, providing the backstories required, etc, for a product that's an atypical unproven quantity (a 500+ page trade paperback format book), written specifically by German authors for a German audience, is not a feasible enterprise or an acceptable risk for a company with the size and manpower of FanPro US (particularly not when its currently completely geared towards churning out the new core books).
That's one of the possibilities I meant when I said:
Personally, I think this sort of add-on stuff on Holostreets would be perfect (same with the German-language chapter of System Failure), however, until Holostreets is up and running there's really no point in speculating about this possibility. Bear in mind there are other possibilities, though the terms of FanPro's license with Wizkids does limit us somewhat. Note this would still not be feasible for other types of material like Die 6 Welt or the German Hot Spots books in the works for next year. |
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Nov 25 2005, 08:43 AM
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#96
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i dunno. it just seems like getting some of it translated should be a bit higher on the to-do list, given that every time someone mentions the german-language stuff everybody goes ape over it. granted that DS isn't the end-all be-all of SR fandom, or even a good representation of it, it's still striking to me that there's so much noise here about wanting the german-language stuff.
re: the difficulty in getting the translation done along with all the stuff that has to go along with it. why not just do the translation of the material and make it available, without bothering with all the cross-referencing and explanations? we're big kids, we can handle it. if we have questions about it, there are plenty of german-speaking posters here and elsewhere online that we can yammer questions at. just get the new stuff translated and available, and a lot of people will be very happy. |
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Nov 25 2005, 08:57 AM
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#97
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Earth - Europe - AGS - Norddeutscher Bund - Hannover Member No.: 7,624 |
Why do you think that DS is not representative for the whole SR-community? |
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Nov 25 2005, 09:01 AM
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#98
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
it just isn't, in my experience. there are a wide array of viewpoints, here, but they tend to fall within a certain range. the range is different at different sites. it's... i dunno, i guess the best way to describe it is 'personality'. different groups of fans have different overarching 'personalities'.
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Nov 25 2005, 09:24 AM
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#99
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Why do you think it is? |
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Nov 25 2005, 09:34 AM
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#100
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Earth - Europe - AGS - Norddeutscher Bund - Hannover Member No.: 7,624 |
Nearly 6.600 members. No preselection of members besides of the necessity of an internet-connection. I think that makes DS pretty representative. Am I wrong? Well, possibly the casual Shadowrun players are a bit underrepresented.
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