Monofiliment Whip Weapon Foci?

Monofiliment Whip Weapon Foci?, yay or nay?

Would you allow a monofiliment whip weapon foci?
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Apathy

Dec 5 2005, 06:05 PM

Post #51

Running Target

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QUOTE (TheHappyAnarchist @ Dec 5 2005, 11:58 AM)

I'm wondering what is stopping you from using Orichalcum in a monomolecular string?
Couldn't you just string the orichalcum out and reinforce it's bond with magic until it was monomolecular width?

Thus making the actual whip orichalcum as well? Or am I missing something.

Even if you could do this with magic...

Somebody would have to learn new spells specifically to attenuate and strengthen the molecules.
Not sure you could cast a spell like this, since you have to be able to see the target without technological vision enhancements (isn't a molecule-thick strand too thin to see unaided? or even with the help of optical lenses?).
That molecular strength spell would have to be maintained, which means the focus would have to become a stacked weapons focus and sustaining focus. Then you wouldn't be able to turn the focus off without the magical monoline turning to dust. It would also raise the crafting and bonding costs for the weapon.

Ultimately, if you're the GM you should do whatever you want in your game. In my game, I'd say that it would be theoretically possible, but practically speaking too difficult and expensive to make or to bond, and it smells too much like a munchkinizer.

Halabis View Member Profile	Dec 5 2005, 07:04 PM Post #52
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 19-October 04 Member No.: 6,773	Monowhips arent actualy monomolecular, just realy thin. They call them that for marketing hype!

Liper

Dec 5 2005, 07:42 PM

Post #53

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QUOTE

That's horse shit. While you can't add any radicals to the mono-line,You can't put any alchemical radicals or pieces of Orichalchum into the monowire...

Which, if you recall, the reason foci go to the astral with you is that it has a aura. If you can't add anything to reduce a already almost impossible number to enchant to the monowire you can't have a whole aura, the wieght at the tip will have a aura that's not part of anything (and operating outside of the body's aura)

QUOTE

Please. You've got nothing. You are grasping at straws from previous editions where it was also legal to make monowhip weapon foci to try to prove that the current rules where you can make monowhip weapon foci are somehow against design intent. They aren't. Monowhip weapon foci are totally sweet, and I'm pretty sure that the designers approve.

Everything in SR lore and design has ALWAYS indicated that the more highly processed the item, the more magic doesn't work with it.

Saying it's something meant to be there or even approved of is just trying to validate your own dripping saliva of the thought of using something like this.

QUOTE

Immunity to normal weapons has no effect against Combat Spells or Weapon Foci.

Yup, but you can't make a monowhip into a weapon focus and it be a monowhip, you're arguing something a bit different then I am. I've stated time and time again you lose any and all damage improvment of the monowhip, you have at the most a standard whip. But you ignore this and go based off of something different then the intent of the SR universe, Nigel findley would be rolling in his grave.

QUOTE

Are you talking about creating the weapon or enchanting it? I did not realize there were enchanting rules in SR4. You do not have to create the weapon, you can go buy a mundane one and enchant it.

In sr2 and sr3 you went off the object resistance test to enchant, in sr4 a highly processed/technological item requires a threshold of 4 or greater to be affected by magic.

QUOTE

Please see SR3 page 191 about weapon foci damage that has been pointed out and quoted several times as well as pointing out that your 2nd edition quote concerns resorting to Force of Will attacks which are quite different.

Please read my qoute before talking further, it's not about force of will attacks, it's in relation to the damage bonus that some tech stuff provided.

It's saying if you have a weapon foci knife with a dikoted edge, you lose the bonus from the dikote against a spirit/astral form but the damage remains that of a knife, which doesn't contradict anything in the sr3 qoute.

QUOTE

a weapon focus inflicts it's base damage in both phsyical and astral combat

a dikote knife in sr3 apparently doesn't ever have the ability to be technologically improved with a dikote edge or a monofilament edge or laser edge against even mundane targets, wow reading comprehension.

QUOTE

I'm wondering what is stopping you from using Orichalcum in a monomolecular string?

trying to fit a compound into a molecule.

6thDragon

Dec 5 2005, 08:07 PM

Post #54

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QUOTE (tisoz)

Points to MitS, page 43 under Material Basis, especially Mundane Telesma. It is also generally accepted that rules in a later published book supercede previous rules, especially books that go into greater detail on a subject.

You got my hopes up that there was something there. If you're refereing to an example of enchanting a sword off the self and saying that indicates weapons foci no longer need orichalcum, I'd say you're really reaching. You could enchant sword to be any other type of foci, there is no rule saying a sword has to be a weapon foci. You all must really want this very bad, to be that desperate. I'll agree that SR has alway had made it hard to influence high-tech gear with magic. In SR3, you definitely couldn't have one, however, there is nothing in the core SR4 book that would indicate you can't. But I'd still make my players wait for the expansion if they asked.

emo samurai View Member Profile	Dec 5 2005, 09:26 PM Post #55
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019	This is assuming you're just using a single long line of carbon molecules. If it was this, it would have to be all single-bonds with hydrogen atoms bonded to the otherwise free electrons. This would make it a long, thin hydrocarbon atom, combustible and unstable. What's more realistic is to make it a long, 4-molecule thick tube made of buckminsterfullerine bond formations. This kind of technology actually exists, and could probably be formed around a long molecule-thick thread of orihalcum by the year 2070. So, yeah.

TheHappyAnarchis...

Dec 5 2005, 10:57 PM

Post #56

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QUOTE (Kleaner)

It's a lame idea which screams of munchkin powergaming. I'm glad none of my players have come up with this idea. I hate bitch slapping friends.

As for any kind of "reasoning" you want to put behind it, whatever, it's just mental masturbation.

The level of technology need to maniuplate molecules on this level, and to create such an incredibly strong bond of wire falls under Clarke's third law:

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

So stop trying to reason building one, 'cause you have no idea how it'd be made. (I'm pretty sure it's not just a string attached to a weight).

Even if they do publish rules for them, I'm not going to allow them, it'd be freaking cheesy.

I'm not sure why it would be any cheesier than say, a polearm built with an extendable haft.
In fact that would be much worse. Not quite as concealable, but it is concealable anywhere that someone can take a pistol. Could arguably do much more damage as well as Strength becomes a factor.

I don't see what is so implausible about it.

As for the magical reinforcing, it's a thing called permanent spells. They do exist.

As for compound, it is still a compound made up of molecules. On the molecular level, it wouldn't be much different. Instead of
OOOOOOOOO - with O being Orichalcum it would be
GSM etc etc for the composite bits. Not sure what the issue would be.

Not really twinky either, there is much worse. This is nowhere near the vein of Synaptic Accelerator + Boosted Reflexes, or million nuyen cyber death machines, or any other number of twinkiness that you can get.

Gothic Rose View Member Profile	Dec 6 2005, 12:13 AM Post #57
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 3-October 05 From: Ann Arbor, MI Member No.: 7,803	So, since orichalcum is a magical material, and since magic often means physics are wonky, WHY can't the actual whip bit be made of monomolecular orichalcum?

Liper View Member Profile	Dec 6 2005, 12:19 AM Post #58
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,885	because you can't manufacture orichalum = ) You could make a whip focus, or a whip made out of orichalum (as ridiculous as it sounds) but you can't make a monofilament whip focus is the only thing that's bieng argued = )

FrostyNSO View Member Profile	Dec 6 2005, 12:51 AM Post #59
Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550	I don't see what the big F-ing deal is. How is the monowhip focus any worse than the Troll with a "polearm" focus (or elf, on the astral)?

Liper View Member Profile	Dec 6 2005, 12:59 AM Post #60
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,885	Because one is allowed in the rules, and also a monofilament can be hidden anywhere, second then someone with absolute crap stats, with one bound would be a killer in both realms. Munchkinism.

FrostyNSO View Member Profile	Dec 6 2005, 01:05 AM Post #61
Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550	So anyone who uses a weapon with a big damage code is automatically a munchkin? It happens to be a really good weapon and has the availability to match. If they can get ahold of one and devote the prohibitively high resources to do it, why the hell not? What does it matter if they can be a tobacco-chewing asskicker in both realms? They paid to have access to that other realm. If the PC being able to inflict 10S is such a HUGE problem, then you better outlaw Machineguns an AV ammo too before the Troll sammie gets one.

tisoz

Dec 6 2005, 01:24 AM

Post #62

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QUOTE (6thDragon @ Dec 5 2005, 02:07 PM)

If you're refereing to an example of enchanting a sword off the s[h]elf and saying that indicates weapons foci no longer need orichalcum, I'd say you're really reaching. You could enchant sword to be any other type of foci, there is no rule saying a sword has to be a weapon foci. You all must really want this very bad, to be that desperate. I'll agree that SR has alway had made it hard to influence high-tech gear with magic. In SR3, you definitely couldn't have one, however, there is nothing in the core SR4 book that would indicate you can't. But I'd still make my players wait for the expansion if they asked.

Those are the rules for enchanting any type of foci, including weapon foci.

QUOTE (Liper)

Please read my qoute before talking further, it's not about force of will attacks, it's in relation to the damage bonus that some tech stuff provided.

It's saying if you have a weapon foci knife with a dikoted edge, you lose the bonus from the dikote against a spirit/astral form but the damage remains that of a knife, which doesn't contradict anything in the sr3 qoute.

Ok, I looked up your quote because I assumed you were talking about the rules regarding force of will attacks.

QUOTE (Awakenings p. 101-102)

When a mundane person attacks a manifest spirit in hand-to-hand combat, he is engaging in a kind of struggle of wills with the spirit. Because skill is of less use against a spirit than unshakable courage, the character fights using Willpower rather than a relevant Combat Skill. Combat Pool dice cannot be added to Willpower Tests for attacking spirits, but they may be used to dodge the attacks of manifest spirits.

Because the physical combat mostly serves as a representation of the struggle that actually takes place between the character and the spirit, the physical properties of the character's weapon are less important than its symbolic properties. Symbolically, a sword is a sword, and against a spirit an ancient broadsword is just as effective as a modern carbon-steel monoblade.

In game terms, technological enhancements to melee weapons such as monofilament edges, laser attachments, Dikote, and so on do not allow a character to inflict additional damage when fighting a manifest spirit. Use only the base Damage Code of the weapon to calculate damage.

First, that pertains to a force of will attack, just as everyone has been pointing out. Second, according to this quote, if a mundane used a monowhip to combat the spirit, the monowhip would do its base damage. Third, this is from SR2 and was updated in SR3 to

QUOTE (SR3 @ p. 188)

The character uses Willpower to make a melee attack against the spirit (Combat Pool dice may not be used). The character can wield a weapon, although mundane weapons do not effect the base damage (the weapon is only a symbol of the fighter's will, it has no actual effect on the spirit in this type of combat).

Fourth, this in no way prohibits the use of technological enhancements incorporated in weapon foci or negate technological bonuses when using weapon foci or when using them in conjunction with mundane weapons when not involved in a Willpower attack. (The Willpower attack has special rules. The spirit does not get to use Combat Pool and the attack bypasses armor power, likewise the character gets no Combat Pool or weapon bonuses.)

Fifth, none of this pertains to weapon foci.

Liper

Dec 6 2005, 01:41 AM

Post #63

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QUOTE

So anyone who uses a weapon with a big damage code is automatically a munchkin?

No anyone who does what's bieng attempted here is.

With this set up, a anemic couch potatoe that spent no points in any physical or mental attributes could spend 15pts to be a magician and another 3 pts on resources to get 15k to get a lv 1 weapon foci in this (and 3k for it bieng monofilament whip)

1pt to bind it.

Grats, you're now a astral projecting/physical combat deadly guy for only 18pts.

The problem with the whip, is it does a great amount of damage and is independent of the users own stats.

a "asskicker" in both realms using the rules, would require alot more then a mere 18pts + whatever else you spent on the character.

tisoz View Member Profile	Dec 6 2005, 02:15 AM Post #64
Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920	With no skill and glitch, he will not last long.

Liper View Member Profile	Dec 6 2005, 02:24 AM Post #65
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,885	yeah, but you're missing the whole point of the excercise. and with the given example, he still has 380something points to spend on the character.

Squinky View Member Profile	Dec 6 2005, 02:55 AM Post #66
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377	Liper, the character still has to purchase an exotic weapon skill, and put some into agility if they want to take advantage of it....And even if they do as you say, they will still have crappy attributes come back and haunt them I am sure. I don't see what the problem is with a person doing that really, there are definate flaws with using a monowhip, and benefits to match.

Liper View Member Profile	Dec 6 2005, 03:07 AM Post #67
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,885	The only problem is everything in the SR universe would say you can't make a character with a monowhip weapon foci and it be as effective as a regular monowhip, and to boot, go into the astral as a monowhips damage.

Squinky View Member Profile	Dec 6 2005, 03:09 AM Post #68
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377	I just picture this character with no points in attributes like you mentioned, getting his whip ripped from his hand and being shit out of luck. He'd have no strength or unarmed abilitys to help him then. He'd be toast....

Demon_Bob View Member Profile	Dec 6 2005, 03:09 AM Post #69
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226	:vegm: From reading some of these posts I figure I should not even think about asking about the damage and armor piercing properties of Bucky-Ball Shot. :)

Liper View Member Profile	Dec 6 2005, 03:18 AM Post #70
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,885	squinky, you like the other poster missed the excercise, for less then 5% of your build points you could make a asset that was a monster in melee and astral combat. The said character would of course use the remainder of his build points.

blakkie

Dec 6 2005, 03:31 AM

Post #71

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QUOTE (Demon_Bob)

:vegm: From reading some of these posts I figure I should not even think about asking about the damage and armor piercing properties of Bucky-Ball Shot. :)

It depends on whether you have them Dikoted, and if they aren't Dikoted whether they are filled with Green Ring-14 or Kryptonite.

Liper View Member Profile	Dec 6 2005, 03:35 AM Post #72
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,885	making rounds like that at least aren't against the rules =p

tisoz

Dec 6 2005, 04:33 AM

Post #73

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QUOTE (Liper)

yeah, but you're missing the whole point of the excercise.

and with the given example, he still has 380something points to spend on the character.

Not really, you do not have a point other than you miss/ignore other game balance mechanics.

QUOTE

The problem with the whip, is it does a great amount of damage and is independent of the users own stats.

This seems to be a major part of the problem. Other weapons do damage independant of the users attributes and are easier on his skill points than a monowhip which requires that specific skill and is useless for anything else.

Liper View Member Profile	Dec 6 2005, 04:43 AM Post #74
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,885	but do they do the same damage on the astral? god some of you posters either lack reading comprehension, are oblivious to facts, or just want to validate munchkinism despite rules.

Halabis View Member Profile	Dec 6 2005, 05:39 AM Post #75
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 19-October 04 Member No.: 6,773	For the love of all thats holy! Monowhips ARE NOT monomolecular. Its like cheese wire. Its Cheese wire made out of some tough material so it wont break with a weight attatched. The weapon has been described in several shadowrun book sas being not realy a single molocule chain. Also, I do believe in the enchanting rules it states you can enchant ANYTHING, you can buy a cyberdeck off the shelf, go get yourself some radicals, and enchant that sumbitch into a weapon focus. Will it be effective? No! Will it work? Yes! Do you need any magical metals? No! They just help. /rant off

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