thats the fun bit

Actually, there is a book (M&M) that says that you can do exactly that.

Now I ignore the fact that it exists. Sad in a way, since I'll never be able to just buy myself a shiny new SR sourcebook. Nice in a way, since now I can just write my own and there'll never be an "official" contradiction.

Oh, yeah. Take a look at SR1.

So you could make a monofilament focus, it'd just act like a piece of string with a wieght at one end and a handle at the other as far as damage to the spirit!

-Frank

..you didn't take a look at SR2, did you?

By RAW you don't need the molecules on the business end per say, and as pointed out in the other thread on this forum that spawned this one the damage isn't the same on the astral as it [remains] on the physical. However exactly what the damage code is is more open to interpretation.

P.S. The topic has come up before on DSF, and SR4 doesn't seem to change much outside of having less to say about it since there's there is still only the BBB.

Contemplate that for a second, the mechanics from previous editions may be out the window but the concepts, ideas remain.

Foci have always had to "work" within the aura of the wielder, second Tech in all editions has been rather impervious or immune to most magic (monofilament tech is still considered high tech)

The material as it stands you have to let go until a newer book comes out that says something opposite.

Just cause we switched to sr4 doesn't mean that submarines don't exist cause it's not in the book yet. Same with how tech and magic works.

You can make a monofilament whip, nothing ever has said you can't, but you don't have any nifty thing in the astral with you, and no advantage in the physical world other then more dice to wield it.

Look, you understand my point. Stop trying to appear to be clever by posting little "tee-hee-hee" comments.

I own multiple copies of the first three editions, and the pdf of the fourth. The mechanics change throughout all editions. That would be the reason they make them. (Well, except for SR$...). When they did remove things from the game, technology wise, it was because the game designers had decided they were mechanically broken. However, unlike SR4, the previous editions included reasons in the story (even if they were a bit silly and contrived), and generally the removals weren't overwhelmingly apparent.

When they were, or even if you just liked the stuff and wanted it back, you'd just "un-remove" it and make new stats for it for the new edition. That's what I'm saying you should do now. It makes [b]no sense whatsoever[b] that you could get a cybereye laser system five or six years ago, but (in a world of constantly advancing technology) you can't get the same (or better) "now". It's fucking stupid, and I pity the players under any GM that is saying "well...it's not in the 4th edition game, so you can't have it".

I'd say I pity that GM for being an idiot too, but I don't. He/she's an idiot. Practically the only excuse for that kind of "OMGzorz it's not in the bookz" defense for not, say, allowing a cybereye laser, is if you just got into the game with SR4 and don't know any better.

I admit, I would translate it the same way due to my interpretation that orichalcum doesn't "radiate" in any fashion to make the rest of the weapon effective, otherwise we would see orichalcum based "masers" being used to take out spirits.

Also, I personally don't allow monofilament weaponry in the game due to the inherent difficulty involved in controlling and storing such devices. Besides, it just seems so... 80's... yeah.

...and that also happens to be exactly the reason they kick so much ass!

This is what a monofilament whip is made of in shadowrun scroll to bottom, under science fiction I don't think you could "fill" a single strand of molecules with anything.

I guess a lot of people are just retarded then. While the basic book of SR3 states that

The advanced enchanting rules declare the use of orichalcum as optional, and give a discount on enchanting foci (including weapon foci) if you use it.

So no, the orichalcum is not required. If you use the rules for making magic items at all, you can make weapon foci that don't have orichalcum in their construction (it just costs more Karma than the example Weapon Foci in the basic book).

-Frank

Then I'd say that you could have one.

I don't care what the rules in SR3 are. SR4 is not SR3, therefore the rules presented in SR3 matter not one whit, and continuity be damned.

I thought weapon foci did normal damage to things on the astral. Huh.

It actaully would change both of those things... If a weapon foci were no longer required to have orcalcium in it, then it would function completely the same as any other weapon foci.

It says orichalcum is required for weapon foci in the original book and does not contradict this in MitS. MitS gives many other options for reducing bonding costs. I don't see anything that would override the core rulebook. It looks like this was something that might have been overlooked in the rules expansion, and as a result is somewhat vague. If I'm missing something please point me in the right direction.

Orichalium or not, the rules state...

Which means, since the damage of the monofilament can't be applied to a focue vs astral things (ie astral space, and it's denizens), you simply can't have a monofilament whip do anything beyond add extra dice to your attacks.

The damage enchancment (or in this case all the damage) is a technological based enchancment and has no basis as the astral world is compared.

Where in 3rd edition did it say it, in sr4 there is no rule, which is the whole debate here, thanks for pointing the obvious =p

Points to MitS, page 43 under Material Basis, especially Mundane Telesma. It is also generally accepted that rules in a later published book supercede previous rules, especially books that go into greater detail on a subject.

This really isn't open for debate. In SR3, weapon foci did normal damage against spirits. Not flooby "no technological enhancements" damage - normal damage. Which was a crap tonne of damage.

The flooby anti-spirit damage was:

1. Just for spirits. Not even for other critters that have immunity to normal weapons, nor for other creatures that have astral forms.
and
2. Only for attacks which are entirley mundane. A magical attack (or an attack with a weapon focus) bypassed that entire rule.

So in SR4, not only is the rule you are talking about not around, but the rule you are talking about never even applied to people using weapon focus monowhips.

-Frank

Nothing ever addressed if techno improvments to affect damage would apply to astral forms, save in sr2... so since the only rule addressing it is in sr2, you have to go by that one.

The removal of technological damage improvments to weapons actually makes more sense in sr4 because it doesn't mean as much as it did in sr3. a mono-sword damage wise is the same as a regular sword, you just wouldn't get the -1ap from it against a spirit, but because it's a focus you'd by pass the immunity to normal weapons ability.

As a whip though it means the damage code changes radically, first there is no whip damage code (regular whip) and the -4ap definatly goes I'd bet.

Yes. That's why this entire line of reasoning was removed from the game mechanics and the fluff. It simply did not stand up to close analysis.

Why? Sure, game mechanically it was very hard. Although you could buy successes (plural) and get it done with absolute certainty if you were willing to spend enough Karma.

That's horse shit. While you can't add any radicals to the mono-line, I think it best that you recall that there are three sections of a monowhip - the monowire, the handle, and the endweight. You can't put any alchemical radicals or pieces of Orichalchum into the monowire, but alchemical gold in the endweight would work very well. Alchemical mahogony would make a very pleasing and ergonomic hilt.

If you can put herbal radicals into the hilt of a sword focus - and you can - you can put herbal radicals into the handle of a monowhip. This is a serious non-problem you've created.

Well no. That's like saying that there aren't any rules for Staging numbers in SR4 so we have to use the first edition ones. In third edition, a lack of rules regarding what technological enhancements did against spirits would cause you to use the normal damage rules of SR3! Which means that APDS was fully functional against Spirits.

But again and still, none of that applied to a monowhip weapon focus, because:

Please. You've got nothing. You are grasping at straws from previous editions where it was also legal to make monowhip weapon foci to try to prove that the current rules where you can make monowhip weapon foci are somehow against design intent. They aren't. Monowhip weapon foci are totally sweet, and I'm pretty sure that the designers approve.

-Frank

Are you talking about creating the weapon or enchanting it? I did not realize there were enchanting rules in SR4. You do not have to create the weapon, you can go buy a mundane one and enchant it.

Radicals or orichalcum do not have to be added to the focus, they can simply be consumed during the enchanting process.

Please see SR3 page 191 about weapon foci damage that has been pointed out and quoted several times as well as pointing out that your 2nd edition quote concerns resorting to Force of Will attacks which are quite different.