 Monofiliment Whip Weapon Foci?, yay or nay? |
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 Dec 6 2005, 06:06 AM
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#76
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377  |
Buh, I think you are the one with the "issues". Your point I adressed was the one where you said a character could be a badass with only so many points as you described. Whats so hard to understand about that? You can do the same damn thing with a full body cyber-limb conversion, screw the natural stats and be a badass....Do you have a problem with that? You can make an adept with critical strike that can do more damage than a monowhip, just lacking the reach. You can make a spellcaster and get some crazy stat augmenting spells and make yourself a goddamned monster, is that okay with you? And your question about damage on the astral seems to have been answered already. So maybe you need to brush up on your reading comprehension, or maybe, just maybe, you have a different opinion or interpretation of things and it would be unfair to say that about you. Just like all these other people you just insulted with your goofy reply. |
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Dec 6 2005, 06:07 AM
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#77
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,885 |
Halabis, the rules specifically state in 2nd edition (and aren't overwritten anywhere and even supported later in sr3) that technological improvments SUCH AS MONOFILAMENT EDGES don't apply to weapon foci.
so yeah, frag everyone that doesn't agree with the rules and is acting like it's cannon to weapon foci a monofilament and that it retains it's monofilament damage. |
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Dec 6 2005, 06:17 AM
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#78
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Who gives a damn if it does the same damage or not? It seems you just have an issue with your players being good at (omg hold the mayo) more than just one thing. So they're good at melee in the physical and astral...They still live in the world of the gun. There are hundreds of guys out there with weapons that do damage independent of their physical stats who (uhoh here it comes) can inflict that damage from accross the room or even a couple hundred yards out. Frankly, being able to whoop ass on the astral plane has never been a decisive factor in the grand scheme of thing in my games. But hey, different strokes for different folks. |
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Dec 6 2005, 06:20 AM
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#79
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Steel is a technological advancement, bronze is a technological advancement...by those rules you wouldn't be able to make a weapon foci out of anything more than a heavy rock. |
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Dec 6 2005, 06:31 AM
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#80
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
No. I'm starting to think that you don't even read these books. Let's go all the way back to the Grimoire. The one that describes how enchanting actually works in Shadowrun's original canon:
You got that? Even in 2nd edition, you could make a monowhip weapon focus. You've always been able to do that. It's not even a deal.
The rules also state that the power you are referencing HAS NO EFFECT ON WEAPON FOCI! Give it a rest. There has never been an edition of Shadowrun in which it wasn't legal to make a monowhip weapon focus and then totally cut spirits in half. You keep quoting increasingly small portions of a rule from 2 editions ago at an increasing volume. Really, we know what the rule actually said, you don't have to shout. The rule actually said that if you hit a Spirit with a monowhip that wasn't a weapon focus, that you got jacked. However, the rules did not say that you got jacked if you struck a spirit with a monowhip that was a weapon focus. And the rules explicitly allowed you to expend Orichalcum without actually putting it on any part of your mundane telesma. So not only do you have absolutely nothing to stand on when hitting non-spirit astral forms with a monowhip, you have nothing to stand on for hitting spirits with weapon focus monowhips. And you have nothing to stand on saying that there can't be magic monowhips. There have been 3 complete renditions of the enchanting rules in 3 editions, and not one of them forbid you from making a magic monowhip. Not one! I honestly have no idea where you got the idea that monowhip foci were even questionable - because they are not. With any luck, the 4th edition rules will actually have a monowhip weapon focus as an example, not to clear up doubts - but just so that you will shut up. -Frank |
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Dec 6 2005, 08:02 AM
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#81
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,885 |
Again you're reading comprehension is incomprehensable. you can make a monowhip focus, but it no longer does the damage a monowhip normally does against spirits/astral forms.
The monowhip enhancment NEVER has applied to spirit combat from 2nd to 3rd edition read the rules,
So what's this part on page 102 that says "Enchancments to melee weapons such as MONOFILAMENT EDGES, laser attachments, dikote and so on, do not allow the character to inflict additional damage when fighting...
So not only do you have absolutely nothing to stand on when hitting non-spirit astral forms with a monowhip, you have nothing to stand on for hitting spirits with weapon focus monowhips.
And you have nothing to stand on saying that there can't be magic monowhips.
There have been 3 complete renditions of the enchanting rules in 3 editions, and not one of them forbid you from making a magic monowhip.[QUOTE]
2nd specifically prohibited gaining any advantage by making it monofilament by making such things immune to weapon foci, 3rd said anything using monofilament/dikote/anything to enchance damage does the BASE weapon damage as a weapon foci. |
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Dec 6 2005, 11:35 AM
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#82
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398 |
Liper, get off your soapbox and actually listen to what the other people are saying.
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Dec 6 2005, 12:51 PM
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#83
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Did you forget where you are? |
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Dec 6 2005, 01:13 PM
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#84
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Just a tiny little note from little old me.
Liper refers to rules about weapon ENHANCEMENTS such as DIKOTE on a regular weapon, what he seems to forget is that the monowhip isn’t an enhancement, it’s a regular weapon, a very sophisticated weapon but still a regular weapon. Now, if someone went and actually managed to DIKOTE the monowhip (I know, very bizarre and would demand something more than just science to work) then I would agree that the ENHANCEMENT of the whip wouldn’t work, the monowhip ITSELF would work without a problem. |
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Dec 6 2005, 01:57 PM
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#85
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Even Dikote did change the base code of the weapon... so it would increase the astral damage, too.
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Dec 6 2005, 02:04 PM
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#86
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Well, I DO agree but it IS an enhancement on the original weapon damage, still, one little box of damage is a moot point in my games anyway, I find light pistols so much more fun nowadays - hand cannons and dikoted ally spirit bullets of DOOM is a thing of the past(SR3) :D |
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Dec 6 2005, 04:00 PM
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#87
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Yes it has. The only time it was ignored is when it was replaced by Charisma for a contest of wills. If you wanted to use the monowhips damage code you could, but then you had to deal with the spirits power of immunity to normal weapons, making the monowhip ineffective against Force 5 or higher spirits.
The passage you keep referring to on Awakenings page 102 only deals with the contest of wills. It is updated in SR3 on page 188. If you choose not to make a contest of wills attack, the rules are on page 189. The relevant passage is:
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Dec 6 2005, 05:03 PM
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#88
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 18-November 05 Member No.: 7,978 |
I would be happy if one of my players took a monowhip weapon focus and decided to go spirit hunting.
You know, those spirit things with that power, what was it called again? Oh yeah, Accident. That was the one. ;) :rotfl: As far as it goes, please stop quoting rules from the contest of wills section. If you want those to apply then you roll only your willpower, your combat skill does not matter when you use a weapon focus against a spirit and you can go to town that way. I get to trade a stat I want to have high anyways for a skill that I won't use often. All right, sounds like a deal to me. /munchkin Really, if you want to change the way weapon focuses work against spirits, go ahead, but realize then that having a weapon focus does nothing against spirits that you could not do before. |
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Dec 6 2005, 06:00 PM
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#89
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
Correct me if I'm wrong...
But doesn't the "Technological enhancements don't apply" apply to those enhancements made AFTER enchantment? As in.. if you took a dikoted sword, and THEN enchanted it, then it does.. but if you took a weapon focus and dikoted it, then it doesn't? Reason being, with the first, the dikote is inherent to the form of the enchanted weapon.. it's part of the enchantment. The second, it's done later, so isn't part of the enchantment? I could be misremembering, I'm a little out of it.. |
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Dec 6 2005, 06:31 PM
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#90
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
No problem.
Actually no. It doesn't apply to magic items at all. The statement that technological enhancements do not apply refers to the rules where if you hit a materialized spirit with a non-magical weapon you have the option of bypassing its Immunity to Normal Weapons by engaging in a contest of wills - in which case you do damage only based on your Charisma. It's a kind of clumsy way of saying it, but essentially it just means that you replace all of the damage with your Charisma. The actual set-up is that you replace the base damage code with your Charisma, and then you ignore any bonus damage you might have from Dikote (or whatever). Clumsily worded, and no longer present in SR4 (we may see attacks of will back in Street Magic, if so hopefully they will have a cleaner wording). Heck, even in SR3 they cleaned it up by just saying that you replaced the whole damage code with a Charisma-based one. If it makes a return in SR4 it will probably still say that. But again and still, you didn't have to worry about that if you had a magic weapon.
Dikoting a sword after enchanting it has a good chance of destroying the enchantment altogether, but that would be a gamemaster call. If the enchantment survived, the dikoted sword would still function as a weapon focus. -Frank |
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Dec 6 2005, 06:39 PM
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#91
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
Meant that "dikoting a weapon focus" you have a weapon focus that has the dikote modifiers physically, but when you project and take it with you, it just has the original values.. the astral form doesn't include dikote, the physical does.
A dikoted sword that becomes enchanted works the same in physical, but when projecting, has the dikote modifiers -- they're part of the astral form. |
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Dec 7 2005, 03:37 AM
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#92
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,885 |
With a weapon foci, it's not a contest of wills guys.
Without a weapon foci it's a contest of wills. |
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Dec 7 2005, 04:23 AM
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#93
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
that's what they've been saying for the past 50 posts.
they've also been pointing out that your quote relating to damage enhancing technology applies to using willpower to attack, and therefore has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with weapon foci, monowhip or not (unless of course, you haven't bound the focus to you, in which case it would indeed apply). |
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Dec 7 2005, 05:08 AM
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#94
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Without a weapon foci, the contest of wills is only one option. The character can attack normally and normal damage applies, including technological enhancements. However, then the spirit's immunity to normal weapons also applies. |
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Jul 12 2006, 12:04 PM
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#95
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 105 Joined: 28-August 05 Member No.: 7,637 |
Oh yeah, magical mono whips are fun as a GM. You get the pleasure of a players getting more dice, and a greater oppurtunity to slice his own arms off with a glitch :)
Liper, do you fully understand what munchkinizm is? A starting troll, with 10 body, +5 body from cyber, mystic adept quality, and only buying armour for a spell, but buying 6 countespelling, 6 will power, and 6 points of mystic armour for adept powers, and buying an armour jacket..... Thats munchkinism. He gets 12 dice for shrugging off spells, 29 body dice for damage, and thats before his armour spell. Give that troll a heavy machine gun and rock and roll. Doing 8 boxes of damage to a spirit with a magical mono whip is hardly cheese. Besides that, rules allow magical monowhips. Your 2nd and 3rd edition arguments don't apply, as they are second and third edition rules. Besides that, you could take any existing melee weapon in 3rd edition and enchant it for a crap ton of karma, why would this one be any different, conscidering 4th doesn't even have the paragraph about high tech stuff not being able to be used. Mono whips cost a crap load of karma to bond (5x the force, yikes!), plus cost a whole lot of money: 10K per force. You with it, plus glitch, you are wearing it, you critical gflitch, you com away with some blood loss. Hell, if you had your 18 point mage, gave him a 6 skill with this monowhip and 6 agility, he could pull off 13 hits, and do 21 boxes of damage. The above munchkin troll above could shrug that off with half his 25 remaining dice, and thats iff his armour spell is not up. |
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Jul 12 2006, 12:12 PM
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#96
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 105 Joined: 28-August 05 Member No.: 7,637 |
on a semi related note, I found a fun factoid on the discovery channel.
Cave man tools where made of stone. Archeologists found stone axes that mono molecular edges to them. How primitave man made them is a mystery. Now if cave men could make a mono edge with a rock, I am sure a mage can find a way to make a mono whip from orchalcium with SR4 level tech. I am not quite sure how that applied to this thread, but it was too cool to not include. |
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Jul 12 2006, 12:19 PM
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#97
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
I had a character with an orichalcum monowhip once. The GM wasn't keen, and it was damn expensive, but he had specified that this was going to be a high power game, he was encouraging munchkinism, and he'd given us a tonne of points to build characters with, so I didn't feel too bad. Sadly the game fizzled out after the first session because the GM got a new job in a different town. I never did get to play with my toy. :(
On the stone axe front- I seriously doubt that that is much of a mystery. Many such tools are made by fracturing flint, which inherently produces a very sharp edge (you could call it monomolecular I suppose but that'd be a bit of a misnomer). |
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Jul 12 2006, 04:42 PM
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#98
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Flint, and also obsidian. Obsidian has a strong tendancy to flake down to a monomolecular edge. It's not an amazing property of cavemen, it's just a vaguely interesting property of the rock.
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Jul 12 2006, 06:32 PM
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#99
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
Gah, nevermind me.
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Jul 12 2006, 06:42 PM
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#100
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 588 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,316 |
I know that I'm repeating myself from the previous thread, and I'm porting rules from SR3, but in SR3 you couldn't enchant anything with dikoting b/c the process of dikoting ruined any magical abilities of the weapon, I'd say that the same holds true with monowire (including the monosword.) It's just too technologically processed to hold any kind of mana charge. Besides, you can't add orichalcum to it since that would make it thicker than a single molocule, and orichalcum can't be drawn out that thin (yeah I'm defining the properties of orichalcum.)
Besides, make a troll mage, with a incr. str focus and a poll arm and you're doing as much damage. as far as obsidian and flint go, you get a very sharp edge; sharp enough to do primitive brain surgery with, but it's thicker than a single molecule. |
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