Martial Arts Specialization? Options

[thewolf]

I'm interested in getting opinions on how people are interpreting the Martial Arts specialization of Unarmed Combat. The description for the skill says it

[Squinky]

You would put:

Martial Arts: 4 (Kung Fu)6

That simple. Lots of folks will tell you they house ruled that to be more restrictive, because it is really open ended, but aas the rules stand, thats how it is....

[thewolf]

I can see that. The SR3-SR4 Character Creation Guide shows them taking someone's Muay Thai Martial Art skill and changing it to Unarmed Combat (Kicking), which I really don't get. It should really be Unarmed Combat (Muay Thai) [3/5] then?

[Apathy]

[Taki]

The unarmed 4( kung fu 6) seems a lot much more better.
Even if it is practically an evrything specialisation...

[ogbendog]

the problem with allowing specialization by martial arts style, is that it will almost always apply.

I mean, if you specialize your pistols skill in Remingont roomsweeper, and have to use a different gun, well, you don't get the extra 2 dice. But when will you NOT be able to use your martial arts style?

[PBTHHHHT]

[ogbendog]

the only way i think to do it is something like

my style is for cramped close areas, like an Alley. I get my specalization dice there.
or my stuyle is for open area. I get my bonus dice as long as ther is no wall or structure within 3m
or my stule is for duels. I get my bonus dice if I'm only fighting one foe

or my styule is for fighting gruops. I get my bonus if fighting 3 or more.

etc.

a martial arts expert might be able to put real world names on those.

[krishcane]

What a person is good at probably is only partially based on the art they studied, and more based on what their particular teacher emphasized, so you could probably pick any restriction for any art.

Another way to think of it is by offensive or defensive style... You could give the bonus dice for defending but not attacking, or conversely. That seems to be a common distinction for people in martial arts. Kicking vs. punching is a real-life distinction for folks, too, or striking vs. wrestling, but I can't see how you'd translate that into game terms.

Here's another idea: "I get my bonus dice unless they're too strong" or "...too fast". You could put an attribute limit on who you can use your style on. So you might have really penetrating strikes and powerful throws, but if a person is quick enough (say Agility >4) then your advantages are less evident and they can just wiggle out of it. Conversely, you may know devastating joint locks that only work so long as the person is not too much stronger than you.

--K

[bclements]

I thought that specializations only added a +2 to the dice pool, not to the actual skill rating?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

[evil1i]

[Squinky]

A person is not a twinky because they play by the rules as written. It's all just a matter of preference, if your gaming group wants to make it more complicated, go for it.

[thewolf]

I can understand the need for restricting the Martial Arts specialization so it won't always apply. The way it stands, it would be an easy 2 BP way to boost a skill two ranks, essentially. The only thing I can think of, is that perhaps someone trained in Martial Arts is going to be far better at kicking hoop than someone who's been in a few bar fights, hence the extra two dice. It seems to not matter in the base book what the particular art actually is, although I loved what they did with CC in SR3.

[Critias]

Which is actually a very backwards way of thinking -- if I had to pick who to fight, I'd very much rather go against your average "martial artist" (IE, pads, mats, pretty colored belts, uniforms, and no idea how to fight anyone who's not fighting just like them) than I'd want to fight against a nasty-ass bar-room brawler who's as likely to gouge my eyes out and bite me as he is swing a punch.

[Hell Hound]

[PBTHHHHT]

[Critias]

Some schools prepare students. Some just take money and hand out belts (making them largely worthless as any sort of rank identifier/ability gauge). Given the options of someone who (1) has a pretty colored belt, but may or may not have ever done anything beyond a little supervised and rules-abiding sparring, and (2) someone who I know has been in some bar-room brawls (which could very well involve anything from chairs to knives to bottles to everything in between)... I'd still want the guy I know has been in at least one fight before, y'know?

[PBTHHHHT]

Oh definitely, I have to agree. I just didn't want people to think that all belt folks are gonna be easier pickings. It's just much more random, so watch out.

On a side note, I do find it neat and disconcerting sitting at a table and realizing how many items there are around you that can be used as a weapon and more interesting enough, look at a specific item and figure the most effective way to use them.

[Shrike30]

If memory serves, the other "Unarmed" specializations are things like grappling, subduing, and the like?

While you could certainly argue that a MA spec would be usable for these other things, it's not really covered in the rules at all. I've got a feeling we may be seeing the return of styles and maneuvers in one of the later books, and this specialization is just paving the way for it.

In the meantime, I'd have a player who wanted a particular martial art look at the existing set of specializations, and pick the one which is closest to what he's trying to get. The plain-vanilla "martial arts" spec might just give them a bonus if they're not trying to do anything fancy, like pin or throw an opponent, and then when the supplement with the actual martial arts rules comes out, I'd give the player the chance to shift a few points around so that his character is better represented in the system.

[PBTHHHHT]

Well, that's up to you. I personally do not want to get bogged down with all these extra rules/situations/etc... about this style or that or I'm doing this freaking subdual grapple, fear me, now gimme the extra dice. No, it's all the same, one skill, one roll. That's what I'm going to have for my games. You can do whatever you feel like. Enjoy.

[Shrike30]

:| Jeez, what'd I say to get a response like that? If no offense was meant, then none taken... it just seemed kind of curt.

Some of the other combat skills have worse specialization issues. Pistols has the "semiautomatics" specialization, which means two bonus dice as long as you're not shooting a holdout, a taser, or one of the two revolvers the system has ever had in it (and only one in the current version). Seems a little iffy to me.

Most players who grab Heavy Weapons are either going to be dragging a machinegun around or just want their underbarrel GL to hit what they're pointing it at, so specialization really just means that the one aspect of that skill they're planning on using costs them less because they didn't raise the rest of the skill along with it. Similarly, if a player wants to specialize in grappling people without hurting them, stabbing with his cyberweapons, or whooping up on someone barehanded, they're not going to be as good at doing the other cool things unarmed lets them do should they find the need. Blocking specialization in this particular skill seems kind of arbitrary.

[Squinky]

One thing to remember when you get all huffy about the easy specialization on unarmed, is that those 2 extra dice mean less than the 2 extra dice provided by specializing in any ranged skill. A person has a much higher chance of dodging a melee attack than a ranged one.

Another thing is there is no smartlink/lasersight/weapon foci for unarmed. So from a game balance issue, it's not a big deal.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Indeed - getting two Bonus Dice only when attacking, not when defending or subduing is not that bad.

[PBTHHHHT]

Sorry if that sounded kinda curt. I'm just tired of seeing the whole arguments about what a style can and cannot do. Unarmed combat, what about someone who doesn't do a style, but they're good at it too? Brawling/Streetfighting? Don't they get a specialization too? It's kinda getting old after seeing this being argued from the previous editions and it's again happening now. People will start fighting over about styles and this and that in the rules, etc... and that takes away from the game/story/plot of the game. But again, to each their own.