I'm interested in getting opinions on how people are interpreting the Martial Arts specialization of Unarmed Combat. The description for the skill says it

You would put:

Martial Arts: 4 (Kung Fu)6

That simple. Lots of folks will tell you they house ruled that to be more restrictive, because it is really open ended, but aas the rules stand, thats how it is....

I can see that. The SR3-SR4 Character Creation Guide shows them taking someone's Muay Thai Martial Art skill and changing it to Unarmed Combat (Kicking), which I really don't get. It should really be Unarmed Combat (Muay Thai) [3/5] then?

The unarmed 4( kung fu 6) seems a lot much more better.
Even if it is practically an evrything specialisation...

the problem with allowing specialization by martial arts style, is that it will almost always apply.

I mean, if you specialize your pistols skill in Remingont roomsweeper, and have to use a different gun, well, you don't get the extra 2 dice. But when will you NOT be able to use your martial arts style?

the only way i think to do it is something like

my style is for cramped close areas, like an Alley. I get my specalization dice there.
or my stuyle is for open area. I get my bonus dice as long as ther is no wall or structure within 3m
or my stule is for duels. I get my bonus dice if I'm only fighting one foe

or my styule is for fighting gruops. I get my bonus if fighting 3 or more.

etc.

a martial arts expert might be able to put real world names on those.

What a person is good at probably is only partially based on the art they studied, and more based on what their particular teacher emphasized, so you could probably pick any restriction for any art.

Another way to think of it is by offensive or defensive style... You could give the bonus dice for defending but not attacking, or conversely. That seems to be a common distinction for people in martial arts. Kicking vs. punching is a real-life distinction for folks, too, or striking vs. wrestling, but I can't see how you'd translate that into game terms.

Here's another idea: "I get my bonus dice unless they're too strong" or "...too fast". You could put an attribute limit on who you can use your style on. So you might have really penetrating strikes and powerful throws, but if a person is quick enough (say Agility >4) then your advantages are less evident and they can just wiggle out of it. Conversely, you may know devastating joint locks that only work so long as the person is not too much stronger than you.

--K

I thought that specializations only added a +2 to the dice pool, not to the actual skill rating?

A person is not a twinky because they play by the rules as written. It's all just a matter of preference, if your gaming group wants to make it more complicated, go for it.

I can understand the need for restricting the Martial Arts specialization so it won't always apply. The way it stands, it would be an easy 2 BP way to boost a skill two ranks, essentially. The only thing I can think of, is that perhaps someone trained in Martial Arts is going to be far better at kicking hoop than someone who's been in a few bar fights, hence the extra two dice. It seems to not matter in the base book what the particular art actually is, although I loved what they did with CC in SR3.

Which is actually a very backwards way of thinking -- if I had to pick who to fight, I'd very much rather go against your average "martial artist" (IE, pads, mats, pretty colored belts, uniforms, and no idea how to fight anyone who's not fighting just like them) than I'd want to fight against a nasty-ass bar-room brawler who's as likely to gouge my eyes out and bite me as he is swing a punch.

Some schools prepare students. Some just take money and hand out belts (making them largely worthless as any sort of rank identifier/ability gauge). Given the options of someone who (1) has a pretty colored belt, but may or may not have ever done anything beyond a little supervised and rules-abiding sparring, and (2) someone who I know has been in some bar-room brawls (which could very well involve anything from chairs to knives to bottles to everything in between)... I'd still want the guy I know has been in at least one fight before, y'know?

Oh definitely, I have to agree. I just didn't want people to think that all belt folks are gonna be easier pickings. It's just much more random, so watch out.

On a side note, I do find it neat and disconcerting sitting at a table and realizing how many items there are around you that can be used as a weapon and more interesting enough, look at a specific item and figure the most effective way to use them.

If memory serves, the other "Unarmed" specializations are things like grappling, subduing, and the like?

While you could certainly argue that a MA spec would be usable for these other things, it's not really covered in the rules at all. I've got a feeling we may be seeing the return of styles and maneuvers in one of the later books, and this specialization is just paving the way for it.

In the meantime, I'd have a player who wanted a particular martial art look at the existing set of specializations, and pick the one which is closest to what he's trying to get. The plain-vanilla "martial arts" spec might just give them a bonus if they're not trying to do anything fancy, like pin or throw an opponent, and then when the supplement with the actual martial arts rules comes out, I'd give the player the chance to shift a few points around so that his character is better represented in the system.

Well, that's up to you. I personally do not want to get bogged down with all these extra rules/situations/etc... about this style or that or I'm doing this freaking subdual grapple, fear me, now gimme the extra dice. No, it's all the same, one skill, one roll. That's what I'm going to have for my games. You can do whatever you feel like. Enjoy.

Jeez, what'd I say to get a response like that? If no offense was meant, then none taken... it just seemed kind of curt.

Some of the other combat skills have worse specialization issues. Pistols has the "semiautomatics" specialization, which means two bonus dice as long as you're not shooting a holdout, a taser, or one of the two revolvers the system has ever had in it (and only one in the current version). Seems a little iffy to me.

Most players who grab Heavy Weapons are either going to be dragging a machinegun around or just want their underbarrel GL to hit what they're pointing it at, so specialization really just means that the one aspect of that skill they're planning on using costs them less because they didn't raise the rest of the skill along with it. Similarly, if a player wants to specialize in grappling people without hurting them, stabbing with his cyberweapons, or whooping up on someone barehanded, they're not going to be as good at doing the other cool things unarmed lets them do should they find the need. Blocking specialization in this particular skill seems kind of arbitrary.

One thing to remember when you get all huffy about the easy specialization on unarmed, is that those 2 extra dice mean less than the 2 extra dice provided by specializing in any ranged skill. A person has a much higher chance of dodging a melee attack than a ranged one.

Another thing is there is no smartlink/lasersight/weapon foci for unarmed. So from a game balance issue, it's not a big deal.

Indeed - getting two Bonus Dice only when attacking, not when defending or subduing is not that bad.

Sorry if that sounded kinda curt. I'm just tired of seeing the whole arguments about what a style can and cannot do. Unarmed combat, what about someone who doesn't do a style, but they're good at it too? Brawling/Streetfighting? Don't they get a specialization too? It's kinda getting old after seeing this being argued from the previous editions and it's again happening now. People will start fighting over about styles and this and that in the rules, etc... and that takes away from the game/story/plot of the game. But again, to each their own.

That's cool, no offense taken.

Styleless Unarmed (or Brawling, if you wish) could be represented as being a specializationless skill (simply up the basic skill level) or you could simply pick what aspect of brawling the character is good at.

I've been in a few fights, and honestly, I'm not a big fan of letting the other guy take shots at me. I'm not "quick," but I'm fast on my feet, pretty muscular in the legs and upper body, and weigh a little over 200 pounds at 6' tall, with my "Brawling" (since I've got no real formal style) being something which you could best represent by a specialization in Grappling (with a low skill level but decent STR and BOD); I try and get in close, tangle him up, hit with my knees or elbows if I have to, and bounce people off hard objects. Put me in a fight with someone who knows what he's doing, and that's going to get me hurt... with that spec in Grappling, I'm not going to be able to defend as well as I could if my skill were simply that high (and I'll admit this... getting close enough to someone that I'm trying to hurt them like that, my goal is to minimize damage to myself by ending the fight quickly or making the other guy give up). Just trying to flat-out beat on someone with a straight-out attack isn't my strong point, either... again, elbows, knees, and nearby objects, rather than fists or feet. As for cyber-implant weapons, well, I don't have any.

So, yeah. I could say I've got "Unarmed (Brawling) 1(+2)", but it'd just as easily get represented by "Unarmed (Grappling) 1(+2)." Trying to represent something real with a game stat is simply a case of approximating it as best you can.

Isn't "subdual combat" grappling?

maybe it's simply

parrying
subdual combat = grappling = "soft martial arts"
martial arts = punching/hard martial arts
cyberimplant

the key might be to not allow specialization in a martial art that is both stricking and grappling.

FYI, when you use the term 'soft martial arts', it generally relates more to the 'internal' martial arts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neijia

I've taken xing-yi (hsing-i, or however you call it), it's a 'soft' or 'internal' martial arts and it's still a striking martial arts. Actually, taiji, bagua, and xingyi while all are known for their soft style in terms of focusing your internal, they're also boxing styles. I took one of the most straight forward ones, xingyi and it's the most agreesive of the three internals chinese martial arts.

A couple Elves in the group specialized in whatever martial arts form they could think of for essentially +2 to everything while using unarmed. I just took a +2 specialization in "Street Brawl Fury" style Martial Arts which looks exactly like punching and kicking in a drunken brawl while mad. Just because I don't want to be a martial artist doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to get +2 all the time.

So, if you wanted to make specializations of unarmed that weren't specific martial arts styles, what do you think those specializations should be?

• Offensive, Defensive?
• Grappleing, Offensive Striking, Defense?
• Grappleing, Punching, Kicking, Defense?

Cyber-Implants, Martial Arts, Subdual Combat, Parrying.

I hope so; I liked the SR3 martial arts rules.

We've opted for the martial art (offense or defense) specialisation.

Simple and fast.

Of course we wrote down the style and i'll sometime give situational advantage for a certain style in a certain situation(judo for throwing, Boxe for punch etc.)

-Spider

Hey, if you want to have an actual martial art, just rename "Unarmed Combat" to "Judo" or whatever. Then just make up really cool-sounding descriptions. If you want to show how your particular martial art is good at something, roll that in as your specialization.

Rather than expressing Aikido as Unarmed Combat (Aikido) 3(+2), you could simply write it Aikido (Subdual Combat) 3(+2). Maybe you're a student of the Razorfist school... Razorfist (Implant Weapons) 3(+2) it is. Just because the system calls it a "Martial Art" doesn't mean it has to actually do something wacky.

I tried to get my GM to let me spec in the Captain Kirk Combo but he wouldn't let me.

*chop* *punch*

Wasn't that *chop* then *punch* then *mate with alien princess*? You can't forget the finishing move!

I'm suprised no onw has noticed this, but isn't taking something like blades:4 (Spurs+2) that same thing? I'm pretty sure a person with spurs will have them most of the time, so is that specialization muchkined out too? Another cool bonus of this skill would be that you would never need to fight unarmed, or the skill....

I think they may actually be talking about those snap spurs (you know, the non-cyber ones) you can get as forearm-guard-style weapons. Given that there's a specialization of Unarmed specifically for cyberweapons, I'd rule that you had to use Unarmed for cyberspurs, and that the Blades (spurs) covered the external weapon.

I did understood the unamed skill was only used for cyber weapon as very short ones (cyber shockpad), otherwise I would recommend to use EDIT : BLADE (spurs).
It isn't alway cool to have to draws hudge claws to fight when you need discretion ...

I have always find the bone lacing a good choice for Munchkin (and you only need one skill whatever append)

Bone lacing's a nice deal in terms of getting a physical damage rating and being good to go, but sometimes (like, say, if you want to cut rope, punch through something hard without shredding the soft tissues off your arms, or hold someone at knifepoint) having an actual cyber bladed weapon helps out.

I could also see an arguement for the Cyberweapon specialization being what you'd use for fighting with bone lacing... strikes specializing in using the (now reinforced) bony parts of your body, especially now that you're less worried about them breaking.

Your right for the sharp things. Cyber blades are just nastier and cool by the way !

For the bone lacing fight, you need a training in muay tai : that martial art is already based on striking with the hard parts of the body (the part with bones - exactly the ones that become deadly with lacing). Specialise in low or high kicks

If you want to stop someone in the street, you could do that using unarmed combat.
Use your "always there" cyber spurs, and you will have a lot of troubles.
Bone lacing is unfair !

If bone lacing is unfair, what about the shock hand/gloves? No need to get your whole body laced with something that can show up on a metal detector if you get the heavy variants, and it does a lot more stun damage than most characters punches will...

Cyberweapons as a specialization exist under several skills - for instance, all bladed cyberweapons fall under Blades(Cyberweapons). It's fairly well-specified in the book, if you read all the descriptions.

As for Martial Arts specialization, it applies when none of the other specilazations do - that is, when you aren't Parrying, Subduing, or using a Cyberweapon. At first I thought this was an unbalaned specialization as well, but I find it much more balanced than Pistols (SemiAutomatics) atm (since there aren't very many burst-fire capable pistols in the BBB)