I've never allowed "vanilla" martial arts specializations. I do allow specific techniques, such as: defending, kicking, punching, or grappling. I use "defending" instead of "parrying" because it works out the same mechanically. Kicking and punching have different limitations; if your hands are tied, or if footing is bad, you can be prevented from using your specialization. And grappling pretty much equates to subduing combat. You can tack labels onto any of these, and come up with something pretty close: defending = aikido, kicking = Muay Thai, punching = boxing, grappling = Brazillian jiujustu.

The whole point of a specialization is that it can only be used some of the time. It's not meant to be free points.

FREE POINTS! FREE POINTS! FREE POINTS!

There's a difference between "trying to have a sword on hand" and "always just saying you're using kung fu instead of brawling, and getting free dice for it."

But is there a difference between your example and having cyber spurs and a specialization for them?

No.

Yes, actually, there is. Why? Because that character might also have hand razors or (SR3, here, dunno if they're in SR4) horns or climbing claws or something else, some other cyber-implant weapon. There's the possibility for the specialization to not always apply.

However, if you let someone just take "Kung Fu" (a ridiculously broad family of martial arts to begin with), and all they have to do to ever get that +2 dice is say "I Kung Fu him" instead of "I throw him," or "I punch him," or "I kick him," or "I block his punch," then you're giving them +2 dice, always, forever, for nothing at all.

If you can't see the difference there, it's your fault (and your parents'), not mine.

I present to you, the dork badge of Irkleness. No, no you earned it man.

Your entire arguement against mine is that a character with cyber-spurs could have other weapons available to use, and thus wouldn't always use his spurs.

The same damn thing applies to your unarmed example. An unarmed character could have all these other weapons he could use in different sitautions just the same....Your example is crappolla incarnate.

And it is your fault that I can't see the difference, not my dear parent's or mine. You need to learn to present valid arguements. This may be the internet and all, but at least you could act like you thought out your posts....

Decent answer, but again I can apply similair situations to when you wouldn't be able to use martial arts....The fact of the matter is that in most cases you will have total free use of both.

@Critias:
Did you grow up near power lines?

I'll break this down for you, so maybe you can stop making general statements to my specific replies.

A situation where a character would use his unarmed instead of his martial arts: There wouldn't be any, I have agreed on this since the begining. My point is to people who are upset by this, to compare it to other skills and specializations which are very similair. I am trying to show how it balances out. A character with Blades (spurs) wouldn't ever use his blades skill either...I know you can concoct many different situations where the spurs may not work, but in every game I've played, that has never happened. And if a situation like this occured (major injury, being somehow trapped) the situation would carry over to using unarmed as well....

With your logic, a person shouldn't be able to use the base skill of unarmed, since he would be able to use it all the time. Most other Comabt skills require a weapon, and thus there is always a chance they may not have access to the weapon....But this makes no real sense, like your arguements....

EDIT:
And Taki, I still disagree with you, but I think it is just coming down to a matter of preference....

You are comparing a specialization in one weapon (spurs), with a specialization in several weapons : head, fists, feet, tibias, knees (and grapple, push and so on)
I think that is the trouble, and this is why I think a specialization (spur) is balanced - while a kung fu specialization is not.
Edit : Squinky I don't really visualise what you means by a matter of preference ???

I see what you are saying Taki, and you have a point. But in the normal shadowrun games, you will be able to use spurs with just as much ability as a guy who has the option to use his whole body to attack. Thus they have the same value.

The only times it may differ is those wacky off the wall, GM trying to screw you times, and I believe that would carry over to unarmed equally...

The problem with unarmed specializations not being limited goes back to the base skill. If you limit it by style (hand attacking, kick attacks) you should make othe skills the same, so say Auotmatics wouldn't be Automatics (assault Rifles) it would be Automatics (suppressive fire) by this line of thinking....

Also, on page 146 melee attacks are described as not a single punch or kick, but as a series or punches, kicks, feints, jabs, etc. There is no way a specailization in say punching would be use just because of the nature of melee combat. Every situation would require too many elements to really allow the specailization to come into play. Having a blanket martial art makes sence to me because of this, and I am sure they will create a list of mentor spirit like bonuses for martial arts in the future, like in the cannon companion...

In a normal shadowrun game, I think using cyber spurs in the street and in the light automaticaly turn you into a searched criminal :
evidence of crime : illegal cyberware detected by severals (simple and cheap) cams around.
That is way there could be a LOT of combat situation where you should'nt use your cyber spur, depending on your gaming style. No such trouble with bone lacing.
-
It is more difficult to tell if the Automatics (assault riffles) is about as limited part than the body (fist) specialization

bleah, I just noticed the latest stuff posted. I retract. hehe.
anyway:
Everyone please don't start insulting each other. We're adults on here... or I hope y'all are or will strive to be adults. Please do it politely, give out your arguments and whatnot. I know I'm guilty of being a bit harsh every so often, but it's usually me telling you to go and do what you will, it's your game, ultimately the decision is your own.

I just have to admit - my character sell cyberware

don't buy that stupid' spur, a nasty guy like you merits titanium bone ! I'll make a good price for you

Oh damn, I actaully thought it was X-men.....

But really, there is no rules saying you cant use spurs this way. I would think a character would be able to control them pretty easily with mental signals. Guess its a matter of fluff.

And if your saying Titanium bonelacing rocks, I agree. If I had to pick my choice between cyber-type weaponables heres how it would go:
1. Bone Density 4, flat out the best, you can get it for 1 essence with alpha.
Gives +4 resistance, is natural looking on scanners, and the attack bonus.
2. Cyber hands with spurs. They actaully take less essence in a hand for some wacky reason.
3. Bone lacing, because you can't get the "good one" at character creation. heh....

I give up, Squink. Your inpenetrable wall of willfull ignorance is too much for me. I'll just hope everyone but you understands the difference in validity between cyber-implant weaponry/cyberspurs, and unarmed combat/kung fu. Have a nice day. Enjoy your games.

Hey, guys...

There's four main things you do with Unarmed: Subdue people, defend from attacks, attack things with cyberweapons, and attack things with your hands/feet/forehead/whatever.

There's four specializations of Unarmed: Subdual, Parrying, Cyberimplant, and Martial Arts. If you do a little bit of extrapolation here, you'll see that the first three fit into really narrow categories...

Subdual is what you use when you subdue people.

Parrying is what you use when you defend from attacks.

Cyberimplant is what you use when attacking with cyberweapons.

You'll note that none of these things really overlap. Saying that "Martial Arts" is horribly named, but fills out the 4th category and simply provides 2 extra dice when you're the attacker (and not when you're Subduing, Parrying, or fighting with your Cyberimplants) makes life remarkably easy. If you've got a player insisting that his "Martial Arts" specialization actually duplicates the effects of more than one specialization, it should be painfully, painfully obvious from the way the three other specializations do NOT overlap that his is not meant to, either.

Probably the infference that using augmented (bone density or lacing) attacks is more equivalent to using baseball bats and knives than fists. Same with Adept powers, IIRC.

Even now, I understand that trained martial artists can be charged with assault with deadly weapons, but I have never bothered verifying that rumour. It sounds like hearsay to me.

I see Marial Arts as a from of Unarmed Combat, not a specialization.
If a Specialization can be used anytime the base skill is used then it must be disallowed.
If by Martial Arts they are referring to a specific set of circumstances such as: close combat; Open area; when opponent has a great difficulty seeing me; ect.; then thats fine.
If a player wanted to have Unarmed Combat(Martial Arts) and did not specify then I would say that it sould only apply at during Sparring and performing.

Shrike30, an excellent explanation. I think I get it now. While we're still missing the maneuvers and other niceties of the specific martial arts techniques, at least this makes the base book rules seem a bit more consistent. Thanks!

I'll probably just go with the interpretation that the Martial Arts specialization actually means striking. That means there is a reason to take the other specializations.

If you interpret it differently, there is no reason to take subdual or parrying, as you can apply martial arts to that situation. None of the other specializations do that.
For instance, you can't use your swords specialization to attack with a knife, or your semiauto to tazer that guard.