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> Did we ever find out about Leonardo's Great Work?
emo samurai
post Dec 14 2005, 02:19 AM
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It cost a lot of money. And how does he compare, skill-wise, to Fastjack?
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Jaid
post Dec 14 2005, 02:30 AM
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ermmm... well... let's see...

[ Spoiler ]


[edit]
[ Spoiler ]
[/edit]

This post has been edited by Jaid: Dec 14 2005, 02:31 AM
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Toptomcat
post Dec 14 2005, 02:33 AM
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He was thousands of years old, but FastJack had just about the same amount of time to familiarize himself with DNI'd computing technology. He didn't get into it quite Echo Mirage-early, but he got into it early. I'd say FastJack would not be all that outmatched.
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Athenor
post Dec 14 2005, 02:35 AM
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I disagree, personally, due to FJ's age. I mean... FJ probably would've been an Otaku if he were born a half-century later, but.. yeah, that's a whole lot of fading and rigidity. Even his first SR4 post shows he doesn't -like- his new position in life (at least, that's the tone I read).

I'll pretty much always see Fastjack as a street level runner for the PC's to empathise with, and Leo as.. well, Leo, however you define that.

Edit to the above: Jaid, no. ;) If Leo was involved in that, A) I need to do a ton more research, and B) I'm VERY scared.
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Jaid
post Dec 14 2005, 02:44 AM
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so you don't think the many, many years that computers were around before echo mirage would make any difference?

i mean, yeah, sure... it's not the matrix... but it's still computers. and furthermore, Leonardo obviously has an incredibly good understanding of the hardware involved, which will give him an edge (particularly since he most likely has modded his hardware beyond leading edge) and he probably has done the same for his software.

also, don't forget, leonardo likely has an intelligence score that is through the roof, and probably gets to ignore petty things like skill and attribute caps.

[edit] to put it another way, Fastjack has to worry about keeping up with the SOTA. Leonardo is busy worrying about creating the SOTA before it even exists. see the difference? [/edit]

This post has been edited by Jaid: Dec 14 2005, 02:45 AM
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stevebugge
post Dec 14 2005, 02:53 AM
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Being ancient may provide more benefit than you think....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

Might be fun to incorporate something like this in an archeology run
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Athenor
post Dec 14 2005, 02:53 AM
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Well, that's the definition of a godlike character. I'd fit some of the techno-dragons into that angle as well.

I still don't understand where you're coming from with the 2nd spoiler tho.
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Jaid
post Dec 14 2005, 02:59 AM
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seem to recall some quote in renraku archology:shutdown that the door everyone was looking for in the archology was a matrix space related to renraku's AI development, and said matrix location was placed there by leonardo. of course, i may be remember two fused plotlines there, as it's been forever since i looked at those (i know leonardo gets referred to in BitB, and i thought he was mentioned in shutdown... )

[edit]
QUOTE (Athenor)
Well, that's the definition of a godlike character. I'd fit some of the techno-dragons into that angle as well.
yes, that pretty much describes immortal elves accurately. notice what i pointed out about game mechanics above regarding these types of characters. in the event that you ever have an opposed test between leonardo and anyone else who is not an Immortal Elf or Great Dragon, the result is always "Leonardo wins", no matter how good the other person's roll is. i mean, i am not joking when i say that the rules explicitly say that immortal elves automatically succeed at whatever action they attempt. that's what GMs have been told to do. don't even bother rolling, they just automatically win (although if players want to roll, you can let them... the immortal elf still wins though). [/edit]

This post has been edited by Jaid: Dec 14 2005, 03:04 AM
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Athenor
post Dec 14 2005, 03:00 AM
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That part I'm wondering about.

I'm just trying to figure out what the hell Leo was doing involved in Echo Mirage.
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emo samurai
post Dec 14 2005, 03:36 AM
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So... Leonardo's great work was an AI?
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Liper
post Dec 14 2005, 03:45 AM
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Watch Highlander if you want a good idea of what age can do for wisdom and knowledge.

(seriously)

Even if they had the same time to adjust to it, it's reasonable that leanardo would have more resources and background knowledge and experience to assimilate the data.
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Jaid
post Dec 14 2005, 04:17 AM
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well, i'm not entirely sure about the AI thing. so don't quote me on that one. i could just be completely off my rocker you know, and i don't really have the book to check if i remember right either...
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Halabis
post Dec 14 2005, 05:01 AM
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Leonardo's great work was something to do with stopping the horrors and hd little to nothing to do with computers. I think. well, he was working on his great work in ED time, and there deffinately werent computers then.
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emo samurai
post Dec 14 2005, 05:58 AM
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Has he finished it?
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Vaevictis
post Dec 14 2005, 10:33 AM
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QUOTE (Toptomcat @ Dec 13 2005, 09:33 PM)
He was thousands of years old, but FastJack had just about the same amount of time to familiarize himself with DNI'd computing technology.  He didn't get into it quite Echo Mirage-early, but he got into it early.  I'd say FastJack would not be all that outmatched.

... uh, yeah. Karma pool. I bet it helps to be able to reroll every die in your pool until it's all successes, and still only have spent 1/100th of a percent of your karma pool.

You can also be sure that after thousands of years, Leonardo has most of his mental stats at the maximums; can FastJack say the same? Leonardo probably has *all* of the computer and electronics background from the beginning up to modern day. He probably knows the details of technical theories that FastJack has never heard of.

There's something to be said for a guy who might know, in depth, about all computer technology ever invented or theorized about. About all electronics technology ever invented or theorized about. About all computer science algorithms and techniques ever invented or theorized about.

I mean, I was able to get through my first two years of engineering and physics courses without learning *anything* simply by applying my four semesters of calculus and deriving all of the equations on the spot. And that's with just 2 years of background mathematics in the field. Leonardo has hundreds and thousands of years of background in whatever fields he's involved in. He can probably just look at problems, apply his background knowledges and invent solutions on the spot, even if he didn't know anything at all about the problem going in.

Yeah, FastJack might be on equal ground when it comes to zero day 'sploits and such, but for sheer volume and depth on the background of how stuff works, you know Leo's got one hell of an advantage.

... and there's always the karma pool. :)
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Azralon
post Dec 14 2005, 03:40 PM
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QUOTE (Vaevictis)
... uh, yeah. Karma pool. I bet it helps to be able to reroll every die in your pool until it's all successes, and still only have spent 1/100th of a percent of your karma pool.

Not in 4th.
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Critias
post Dec 14 2005, 03:50 PM
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QUOTE (emo samurai)
And how does he compare, skill-wise, to Fastjack?

This might as well just say "And how does any IE compare to any non-IE?"
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PBTHHHHT
post Dec 14 2005, 04:00 PM
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Ugh, after reading all this, my hatred of IE's have gone up a few notches again. But now I also feel like whenever I get into a situation in shadowrun to say 'what would leonardo do?'* In the hopes that Leonardo will show up to help save the day.

* - South Park referencing here, for Brian Boitano(?)

==================================
On to the whole skills thing though. How would it all work out with the skill caps and such in SR4 in regards to Leo's skill? This is in addition to Azralon pointing out about the karma pool changes in 4th. Would this change things around, maybe even out the skills between Leo and Fastjack? Just wondering.
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Athenor
post Dec 14 2005, 04:18 PM
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Game mechanics wise? Probably.

GM storytelling wise? If Leo's involved, don't make him roll. =P

I harken back to Brainscan, where it took the PC's setting up a "mini-Network" to even begin to take on Deus in the SCIRE. If the players somehow manage to accomplish something like that, in the real world, in a test against Leo, then you start rolling dice for him. ;)

That said, I don't run high powered games.
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Ancient History
post Dec 14 2005, 05:39 PM
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Peace be to journey, children. Right now, Leo (who is probably not the historical Da Vinci) is Lofwyr's personal toy-making, south pole dwelling, elf-bichi.

See. Leo has a thing against the Catholic church - anyone that read the Da Vinci Code may now kick their own asses and realize even Marc Gasciogne and Carl Sargent did it better - and stole a nuke from Lofwyr to frame the Vatican. Big mistake. Loffy destroyed the Great Work-in-progress (which resembled nothing so much as a modern-day kaer) and took Leo off to parts unknown (probably his Antarctic workshop).

Leo isn't directly responsible for Deus, but some of his super-tech was incorporated into the Arcology computers, and he did leave a 'back door' into the system so he could check for signs of any emerging AI.

Unless Leo's been upgraded, his 133+ otaku skillz are a bit outdated in 2070 - although with his personal optical cyberdeck, he's probably a match for most technomancers.
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emo samurai
post Dec 14 2005, 08:21 PM
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What's a kaer? And how long would it take for him to rebuild it again? And what did it do? It must have been awesome. And why did he steal from Lofwyr, of all people? Why not someone easier, like the UCAS military? And what book was the above information from?
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emo samurai
post Dec 14 2005, 08:24 PM
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And as for the whole Ie's beating all non-Ie's at everything, does that mean if Ehran the Scribe were to start decking today, he'd kick Fastjack?
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Hasaku
post Dec 14 2005, 08:52 PM
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QUOTE (emo samurai)
What's a kaer? And how long would it take for him to rebuild it again? And what did it do? It must have been awesome. And why did he steal from Lofwyr, of all people? Why not someone easier, like the UCAS military? And what book was the above information from?

Think bomb shelter, only instead of bombs it's "extraplanar evil of inconceivable power bent on ravaging earth." He probably stole from Lofwyr because he was counting on the wyrm's retaliation to harm the Vatican.
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Vaevictis
post Dec 14 2005, 11:44 PM
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QUOTE (Azralon)
Not in 4th.

Yeah, true. I sometimes forget to pay attention to the forum title.

Still, that said, all the background knowledges, probably a rediculously high edge, etc.

All that aside, if we're talking IEs in 4th, there aren't actually any rules on them at all yet, so who knows what lies in store. (For all we know, for example, IEs may not have any stat caps...)
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Jaid
post Dec 15 2005, 12:08 AM
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i'm sure IEs get to ignore skill caps. i can't imagine they limit IEs any more than they would great dragons or spirits.

that's one thing i really don't like about SR... the PC/NPC double standard. sure, i can understand why you wouldn't want your PCs to do some things, but i disagree that they shouldn't be allowed to do them from a rules perspective (ie, i have no problem with a GM saying "no, you can't be an immortal elf", but i disagree that the rules should say "you cannot be an immortal elf". or toxic shaman, or king's path magician, etc. )
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