Full Version: Did we ever find out about Leonardo's Great Work?
It cost a lot of money. And how does he compare, skill-wise, to Fastjack?
ermmm... well... let's see...
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He was thousands of years old, but FastJack had just about the same amount of time to familiarize himself with DNI'd computing technology. He didn't get into it quite Echo Mirage-early, but he got into it early. I'd say FastJack would not be all that outmatched.
I disagree, personally, due to FJ's age. I mean... FJ probably would've been an Otaku if he were born a half-century later, but.. yeah, that's a whole lot of fading and rigidity. Even his first SR4 post shows he doesn't -like- his new position in life (at least, that's the tone I read).
I'll pretty much always see Fastjack as a street level runner for the PC's to empathise with, and Leo as.. well, Leo, however you define that.
Edit to the above: Jaid, no.
If Leo was involved in that, A) I need to do a ton more research, and B) I'm VERY scared.
I'll pretty much always see Fastjack as a street level runner for the PC's to empathise with, and Leo as.. well, Leo, however you define that.
Edit to the above: Jaid, no.
If Leo was involved in that, A) I need to do a ton more research, and B) I'm VERY scared.
so you don't think the many, many years that computers were around before echo mirage would make any difference?
i mean, yeah, sure... it's not the matrix... but it's still computers. and furthermore, Leonardo obviously has an incredibly good understanding of the hardware involved, which will give him an edge (particularly since he most likely has modded his hardware beyond leading edge) and he probably has done the same for his software.
also, don't forget, leonardo likely has an intelligence score that is through the roof, and probably gets to ignore petty things like skill and attribute caps.
[edit] to put it another way, Fastjack has to worry about keeping up with the SOTA. Leonardo is busy worrying about creating the SOTA before it even exists. see the difference? [/edit]
i mean, yeah, sure... it's not the matrix... but it's still computers. and furthermore, Leonardo obviously has an incredibly good understanding of the hardware involved, which will give him an edge (particularly since he most likely has modded his hardware beyond leading edge) and he probably has done the same for his software.
also, don't forget, leonardo likely has an intelligence score that is through the roof, and probably gets to ignore petty things like skill and attribute caps.
[edit] to put it another way, Fastjack has to worry about keeping up with the SOTA. Leonardo is busy worrying about creating the SOTA before it even exists. see the difference? [/edit]
Being ancient may provide more benefit than you think....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism
Might be fun to incorporate something like this in an archeology run
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism
Might be fun to incorporate something like this in an archeology run
Well, that's the definition of a godlike character. I'd fit some of the techno-dragons into that angle as well.
I still don't understand where you're coming from with the 2nd spoiler tho.
I still don't understand where you're coming from with the 2nd spoiler tho.
seem to recall some quote in renraku archology:shutdown that the door everyone was looking for in the archology was a matrix space related to renraku's AI development, and said matrix location was placed there by leonardo. of course, i may be remember two fused plotlines there, as it's been forever since i looked at those (i know leonardo gets referred to in BitB, and i thought he was mentioned in shutdown... )
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| QUOTE (Athenor) |
| Well, that's the definition of a godlike character. I'd fit some of the techno-dragons into that angle as well. |
yes, that pretty much describes immortal elves accurately. notice what i pointed out about game mechanics above regarding these types of characters. in the event that you ever have an opposed test between leonardo and anyone else who is not an Immortal Elf or Great Dragon, the result is always "Leonardo wins", no matter how good the other person's roll is. i mean, i am not joking when i say that the rules explicitly say that immortal elves automatically succeed at whatever action they attempt. that's what GMs have been told to do. don't even bother rolling, they just automatically win (although if players want to roll, you can let them... the immortal elf still wins though). [/edit]
That part I'm wondering about.
I'm just trying to figure out what the hell Leo was doing involved in Echo Mirage.
I'm just trying to figure out what the hell Leo was doing involved in Echo Mirage.
So... Leonardo's great work was an AI?
Watch Highlander if you want a good idea of what age can do for wisdom and knowledge.
(seriously)
Even if they had the same time to adjust to it, it's reasonable that leanardo would have more resources and background knowledge and experience to assimilate the data.
(seriously)
Even if they had the same time to adjust to it, it's reasonable that leanardo would have more resources and background knowledge and experience to assimilate the data.
well, i'm not entirely sure about the AI thing. so don't quote me on that one. i could just be completely off my rocker you know, and i don't really have the book to check if i remember right either...
Leonardo's great work was something to do with stopping the horrors and hd little to nothing to do with computers. I think. well, he was working on his great work in ED time, and there deffinately werent computers then.
Has he finished it?
| QUOTE (Toptomcat @ Dec 13 2005, 09:33 PM) |
| He was thousands of years old, but FastJack had just about the same amount of time to familiarize himself with DNI'd computing technology. He didn't get into it quite Echo Mirage-early, but he got into it early. I'd say FastJack would not be all that outmatched. |
... uh, yeah. Karma pool. I bet it helps to be able to reroll every die in your pool until it's all successes, and still only have spent 1/100th of a percent of your karma pool.
You can also be sure that after thousands of years, Leonardo has most of his mental stats at the maximums; can FastJack say the same? Leonardo probably has *all* of the computer and electronics background from the beginning up to modern day. He probably knows the details of technical theories that FastJack has never heard of.
There's something to be said for a guy who might know, in depth, about all computer technology ever invented or theorized about. About all electronics technology ever invented or theorized about. About all computer science algorithms and techniques ever invented or theorized about.
I mean, I was able to get through my first two years of engineering and physics courses without learning *anything* simply by applying my four semesters of calculus and deriving all of the equations on the spot. And that's with just 2 years of background mathematics in the field. Leonardo has hundreds and thousands of years of background in whatever fields he's involved in. He can probably just look at problems, apply his background knowledges and invent solutions on the spot, even if he didn't know anything at all about the problem going in.
Yeah, FastJack might be on equal ground when it comes to zero day 'sploits and such, but for sheer volume and depth on the background of how stuff works, you know Leo's got one hell of an advantage.
... and there's always the karma pool.
| QUOTE (Vaevictis) |
| ... uh, yeah. Karma pool. I bet it helps to be able to reroll every die in your pool until it's all successes, and still only have spent 1/100th of a percent of your karma pool. |
Not in 4th.
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| And how does he compare, skill-wise, to Fastjack? |
This might as well just say "And how does any IE compare to any non-IE?"
Ugh, after reading all this, my hatred of IE's have gone up a few notches again. But now I also feel like whenever I get into a situation in shadowrun to say 'what would leonardo do?'* In the hopes that Leonardo will show up to help save the day.
* - South Park referencing here, for Brian Boitano(?)
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On to the whole skills thing though. How would it all work out with the skill caps and such in SR4 in regards to Leo's skill? This is in addition to Azralon pointing out about the karma pool changes in 4th. Would this change things around, maybe even out the skills between Leo and Fastjack? Just wondering.
* - South Park referencing here, for Brian Boitano(?)
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On to the whole skills thing though. How would it all work out with the skill caps and such in SR4 in regards to Leo's skill? This is in addition to Azralon pointing out about the karma pool changes in 4th. Would this change things around, maybe even out the skills between Leo and Fastjack? Just wondering.
Game mechanics wise? Probably.
GM storytelling wise? If Leo's involved, don't make him roll. =P
I harken back to Brainscan, where it took the PC's setting up a "mini-Network" to even begin to take on Deus in the SCIRE. If the players somehow manage to accomplish something like that, in the real world, in a test against Leo, then you start rolling dice for him.
That said, I don't run high powered games.
GM storytelling wise? If Leo's involved, don't make him roll. =P
I harken back to Brainscan, where it took the PC's setting up a "mini-Network" to even begin to take on Deus in the SCIRE. If the players somehow manage to accomplish something like that, in the real world, in a test against Leo, then you start rolling dice for him.
That said, I don't run high powered games.
Peace be to journey, children. Right now, Leo (who is probably not the historical Da Vinci) is Lofwyr's personal toy-making, south pole dwelling, elf-bichi.
See. Leo has a thing against the Catholic church - anyone that read the Da Vinci Code may now kick their own asses and realize even Marc Gasciogne and Carl Sargent did it better - and stole a nuke from Lofwyr to frame the Vatican. Big mistake. Loffy destroyed the Great Work-in-progress (which resembled nothing so much as a modern-day kaer) and took Leo off to parts unknown (probably his Antarctic workshop).
Leo isn't directly responsible for Deus, but some of his super-tech was incorporated into the Arcology computers, and he did leave a 'back door' into the system so he could check for signs of any emerging AI.
Unless Leo's been upgraded, his 133+ otaku skillz are a bit outdated in 2070 - although with his personal optical cyberdeck, he's probably a match for most technomancers.
See. Leo has a thing against the Catholic church - anyone that read the Da Vinci Code may now kick their own asses and realize even Marc Gasciogne and Carl Sargent did it better - and stole a nuke from Lofwyr to frame the Vatican. Big mistake. Loffy destroyed the Great Work-in-progress (which resembled nothing so much as a modern-day kaer) and took Leo off to parts unknown (probably his Antarctic workshop).
Leo isn't directly responsible for Deus, but some of his super-tech was incorporated into the Arcology computers, and he did leave a 'back door' into the system so he could check for signs of any emerging AI.
Unless Leo's been upgraded, his 133+ otaku skillz are a bit outdated in 2070 - although with his personal optical cyberdeck, he's probably a match for most technomancers.
What's a kaer? And how long would it take for him to rebuild it again? And what did it do? It must have been awesome. And why did he steal from Lofwyr, of all people? Why not someone easier, like the UCAS military? And what book was the above information from?
And as for the whole Ie's beating all non-Ie's at everything, does that mean if Ehran the Scribe were to start decking today, he'd kick Fastjack?
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| What's a kaer? And how long would it take for him to rebuild it again? And what did it do? It must have been awesome. And why did he steal from Lofwyr, of all people? Why not someone easier, like the UCAS military? And what book was the above information from? |
Think bomb shelter, only instead of bombs it's "extraplanar evil of inconceivable power bent on ravaging earth." He probably stole from Lofwyr because he was counting on the wyrm's retaliation to harm the Vatican.
| QUOTE (Azralon) |
| Not in 4th. |
Yeah, true. I sometimes forget to pay attention to the forum title.
Still, that said, all the background knowledges, probably a rediculously high edge, etc.
All that aside, if we're talking IEs in 4th, there aren't actually any rules on them at all yet, so who knows what lies in store. (For all we know, for example, IEs may not have any stat caps...)
i'm sure IEs get to ignore skill caps. i can't imagine they limit IEs any more than they would great dragons or spirits.
that's one thing i really don't like about SR... the PC/NPC double standard. sure, i can understand why you wouldn't want your PCs to do some things, but i disagree that they shouldn't be allowed to do them from a rules perspective (ie, i have no problem with a GM saying "no, you can't be an immortal elf", but i disagree that the rules should say "you cannot be an immortal elf". or toxic shaman, or king's path magician, etc. )
that's one thing i really don't like about SR... the PC/NPC double standard. sure, i can understand why you wouldn't want your PCs to do some things, but i disagree that they shouldn't be allowed to do them from a rules perspective (ie, i have no problem with a GM saying "no, you can't be an immortal elf", but i disagree that the rules should say "you cannot be an immortal elf". or toxic shaman, or king's path magician, etc. )
It's the base book!
*shrugs* I have never seen any RPG that allows a player to become God incarnate in the core book (yes, I'm sure there are some out there, that is not my point)... Most require at least 1 additional supplement to make it to god-status, if not more. Even D&D 3rd requires the DMG for prestiege classes.
We'll see if the expansion rulebooks change the rules in that regard a bit.
*shrugs* I have never seen any RPG that allows a player to become God incarnate in the core book (yes, I'm sure there are some out there, that is not my point)... Most require at least 1 additional supplement to make it to god-status, if not more. Even D&D 3rd requires the DMG for prestiege classes.
We'll see if the expansion rulebooks change the rules in that regard a bit.
i'm not talking about SR4, i'm talking about SR in general (or at least, in the editions i know... 3 & 4, pretty much).
as i mentioned, players cannot be toxic shamans, insect shamans, know blood magic, etc, according to the SR3 rules. not too sure about earlier editions (never knew about SR until 3rd was out), but that was how it was set up.
now of course, SR4 may indeed change that, but so far it's not looking so good... what with the non-PC material in the core book blatantly breaking rules that are given for PCs (specifically, skill caps). that material being the spirits and dragons section, for the record. (i don't count the talismonger... i presume that was a typo)
now, just to be clear, i have no problems with great dragons being able to sneeze on normal people and those people implode. i don't have a problem with great dragons (or force 15 spirits for that matter) being incredibly powerful beings that are so scary you don't even pretend you can do anything against them without vast amounts of preparation, large numbers of people, and truly ludicrous amounts of resources.
i do mind that a player can never get higher than a 7 in a skill, and that for most cases they can't get higher than a 6, but NPCs can ignore those whenever it isn't convenient to live by them. certainly, make it *hard* to get higher than 6. make it so that no one *wants* to have a 10 skill it's so expensive. but make it possible if they are looney enough to want it, as well.
as i mentioned, players cannot be toxic shamans, insect shamans, know blood magic, etc, according to the SR3 rules. not too sure about earlier editions (never knew about SR until 3rd was out), but that was how it was set up.
now of course, SR4 may indeed change that, but so far it's not looking so good... what with the non-PC material in the core book blatantly breaking rules that are given for PCs (specifically, skill caps). that material being the spirits and dragons section, for the record. (i don't count the talismonger... i presume that was a typo)
now, just to be clear, i have no problems with great dragons being able to sneeze on normal people and those people implode. i don't have a problem with great dragons (or force 15 spirits for that matter) being incredibly powerful beings that are so scary you don't even pretend you can do anything against them without vast amounts of preparation, large numbers of people, and truly ludicrous amounts of resources.
i do mind that a player can never get higher than a 7 in a skill, and that for most cases they can't get higher than a 6, but NPCs can ignore those whenever it isn't convenient to live by them. certainly, make it *hard* to get higher than 6. make it so that no one *wants* to have a 10 skill it's so expensive. but make it possible if they are looney enough to want it, as well.
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| i do mind that a player can never get higher than a 7 in a skill, and that for most cases they can't get higher than a 6, but NPCs can ignore those whenever it isn't convenient to live by them. |
Then remove the skill cap. It's your game. NPCs ignore the restrictions when it isn't convenient because they're not really characters. They're plot devices.
if all i wanted was to make endless house rules, then i wouldn't be paying for someone else to do it for me, now would i?
i'm not annoyed because they've made it into some incomprehensible mess that you need a degree in cryptography to resolve or anything (because they haven't). i'm annoyed that it's right there in the rules that players simply cannot do that. i don't mind if they say something has a threshold of 40 (if it deserves it) or anything like that, i just mind when they say "it can't be done."
i'm not annoyed because they've made it into some incomprehensible mess that you need a degree in cryptography to resolve or anything (because they haven't). i'm annoyed that it's right there in the rules that players simply cannot do that. i don't mind if they say something has a threshold of 40 (if it deserves it) or anything like that, i just mind when they say "it can't be done."
But you aren't making them, we're giving them to you! And for Free! No work at all on your part!
Don't you like our present? *Sniff*
Don't you like our present? *Sniff*
So keeping this short---WAS Leo making a CyberKear???? 
????
????
With lasers.
DAMN YOU AH!!
ok ok now-- ; just take this slow if hypotheticly resonence pools are the begingings of MANA being converted to the MATIX/MACHINE..____ ;WHAT is going to happen if you were able to start~WEAVING~resonence like a spell matrix.....just wondering.....__
And also what minght of happened to that HONKING CORUPTED great form Earth-Sub-Metal-Elemental(metal is a special division of Earth?) tate the dragons first raised back in the earthdawn 4th world .....{was it's name trapster or something?} 
And also what minght of happened to that HONKING CORUPTED great form Earth-Sub-Metal-Elemental(metal is a special division of Earth?) tate the dragons first raised back in the earthdawn 4th world .....{was it's name trapster or something?}
Artificer, always fun.
I wonder how fun the Arc would have been if it was him (it?) in charge.
I wonder how fun the Arc would have been if it was him (it?) in charge.
you also gotta remeber that some people are just naturual at learning certain skills, for example some dump Shockers can learn the skill of GM'ing pretty fast.
OK now don't throw any thing at me 
If astral energy can be weaved into a Spell thread then what if you could weave resonence into something like a thread--my suggestion for a resonence equivalent name is --
Resonence Fibers
Now this combined with optical chips would be the begining of COMPUTER INTERACTION WITH THE ASTRAL PLANE______could this be the dirrection that Leo was going in?
lastly now--if a system had Resonence Fibers Woven into it--this would be the evolution of Resonence pools/wells into ResonenceBatteries now if these Resonence Batteries AND AN A.I. were to come into contact----(PLEASE NOW DON'T FREAK OUT THE NEXT HYPOTETICAL IS JUST LOOKING FOR SOME YET FURTHER EVOLUTON)-----could the resonence batteries start BREEDING A.I.'S that would then take over a manufactuing plant and make the INCARNATED/INCATINATED A.I.'s their own Bodies----so where I'm really going is this
THESE Resonence batteries would become[yes I will say it] Lifesystems~which would then give birth to the 6th WORLD version of OBSIDIONMEN which would then be called the CYBERFOLK!
just thought someone had to cover all the bases out in LALA Land now
If astral energy can be weaved into a Spell thread then what if you could weave resonence into something like a thread--my suggestion for a resonence equivalent name is --
Resonence Fibers Now this combined with optical chips would be the begining of COMPUTER INTERACTION WITH THE ASTRAL PLANE______could this be the dirrection that Leo was going in?
lastly now--if a system had Resonence Fibers Woven into it--this would be the evolution of Resonence pools/wells into ResonenceBatteries now if these Resonence Batteries AND AN A.I. were to come into contact----(PLEASE NOW DON'T FREAK OUT THE NEXT HYPOTETICAL IS JUST LOOKING FOR SOME YET FURTHER EVOLUTON)-----could the resonence batteries start BREEDING A.I.'S that would then take over a manufactuing plant and make the INCARNATED/INCATINATED A.I.'s their own Bodies----so where I'm really going is this
THESE Resonence batteries would become[yes I will say it] Lifesystems~which would then give birth to the 6th WORLD version of OBSIDIONMEN which would then be called the CYBERFOLK!
just thought someone had to cover all the bases out in LALA Land now
No reply yet?---sorry if I got too theoretical 
do too much blow in your time?
um, no, no Ai babies and no ai doing anything with magic, unless indirectly through a person already capable of magic.
um, no, no Ai babies and no ai doing anything with magic, unless indirectly through a person already capable of magic.
ok nothing like that yet but as the matirx rebuilds and comes into even more contact with mana sooner or later SOMEKIND of evolution will occur 
| QUOTE |
| I wonder how fun the Arc would have been if it was him (it?) in charge. |
Are you absolutely sure that wasn't the case?
no, not likely currently.
If you want to talk evolution, talk thousands of years =p
If you want to talk plausable, no, no machines manipulating mana.
As to how magical technology is, I'll agree with you on 2070 tech is t3h wiz.
And no, just using word somatics, to describe what are drastically different things won't make the two similiar.
Saying I can hit a homerun with a bat, doesn't mean I can train a bat to hit a homerun.
If you want to talk evolution, talk thousands of years =p
If you want to talk plausable, no, no machines manipulating mana.
As to how magical technology is, I'll agree with you on 2070 tech is t3h wiz.
And no, just using word somatics, to describe what are drastically different things won't make the two similiar.
Saying I can hit a homerun with a bat, doesn't mean I can train a bat to hit a homerun.
ok but will there ever be an advance where you could wheave resonence like spell threads???____could an ultra-advanced technomancer/otaku make resonence fibers?
you'll have to explain this resonance fiber, cause so far I'm thinking you want to make a matrix pair of socks.
Ghost help us when he reads the SR4 matrix chapter and discovers technomancer threading.
I'm not saying it should be easy---It would probably take 5-10 years game time to happen--I'm just speculating that eventually a powerful enough Technomancer will Try[B]to Thread/weave Resonence like it is mana if said Technomancer is hanging out with some high level magic users
it might inspire him/her
I was talking about you. 
I have never heard Lenoardo mentioned in any of the books. could someone be so kind as to post a small explanation about him?
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