Foci....a matter of form? Options

[Pendaric]

Weapon foci by nature are of course weapons. However all other forms of foci can literally be of any form of mundane item. From pebble to cyberdeck, or car, house and has even been suggested a oil super tanker, abiet with differing levels of difficulty.
Lets assume for the moment that foci are kept to personally mobile scale for now.

We know that all foci become dual natured when they are activated, also that for a character that can astrally project those effects go with the projected persona, while the activated focus remains in contact with the physical body. Also, there are multiple references of sacremental knives, daggers, swords, staves, tomahawks ect used by various magical traditions.

So what would be your rule call on a power (spell/sustaining/centering ect) focus that is in the form of a weapon in astral combat?

[TheHappyAnarchis...]

You can use it to fight, but it doesn't change any of the damage codes or anything. The weapons form is not the important part unless it is a weapon focus.

[The Stainless St...]

I would say that if the focus in question was large enough to grant a reach bonus you could take advantage of that, but the power/damage of the attack would be equal to your base unarmed attack.

see post below

This post has been edited by The Stainless Steel Rat: Dec 15 2005, 11:52 PM

[hobgoblin]

astral combat isnt done as melee combat now is it? or does weapon foci with reach bonus grant that effect in the astral? i dont recall and cant be botherd to look it up :P

[FrankTrollman]

Weapon Foci continue to provide reach in Astral Combat. In the basic books of each edition you actually pay Karma for having the reach, though the enchanting rules of each edition leave that out.

-Frank

[stevebugge]

If the question is really: "Can I back door a dual use focus for the price of just a power focus?" Then I would say absolutely no. In astral space form and function are not necessarily related, so while a power focus shaped like a ritual dagger may make a perfectly good knife in the physical world, it is functionally just a power focus on the astral, the form having little effect on it's ability to do psychic-emotive metaphorical damage to the astral form.

[hobgoblin]

so unless its enchanted as a weapon foci based on a weapon with a reach bonus, no bonus...

[stevebugge]

Yeah, so a weapon focus spear would give a nice reach bonus on astral but a power focus shaped like a spear is just a power focus.

[Straight Razor]

you can double up folci (one object with 2 or more folci "in" it). having a power 2 weapon 3 folci is fun.

[Pendaric]

Seems some what lacking? As a its dual natured item how can a otherwise astrally solid item not give an advantage? Simply because it gives an unreasonable advantage? If so why?
It's a good point astral has a different emphasis but for all other purposes it is the same as normal combat; position, reach, friends in combat ect
The full advantages of bonus dice and perhapes a increased damage code (weapon focus knives oddly have a lower damages strictly to the rules? :vegm:) are of course to be stopped.
However the actual attempt to attack foci in astral combat to destroy them is stated (and long winded), also astral constructs in Target Awaken Lands function as if real in the astral even when they don't manifest.
So to deny any advantage, again, seems lacking...so is there perhapes a middle ground?

[Fix-it]

hmmm... next time I do a hermetic... he caries all the elements with him as foci.

Pocketfull of dirt... yeah...

(hey, but for a Gaesa for water spells he'd have to spit. :D )

[Pendaric]

Just don't do it into the direction of the air elemental...:)

[TheHappyAnarchis...]

The reason that astral power foci spears are Reach 0 is that the spear is not conceptually a weapon.
A weapon focus spear is imbued with all of the energy and symbolism of the spear as a weapon, keeping foes distant, piercing enemy defenses and so forth.
A power focus spear is imbued with the cultural symbolism of the spear, the metaphysical spear. Power focused and controlled, directed to the goals of the mage.

That is the in game reason that power focus in weapons do not get weapon bonuses on the astral. It is not the actual "solid" part of the item in the astral that gives it power. It is the symbolism and ideas attached to it. One is a symbol of the mages power, and the other is the symbol of a weapon to be used.

Trolls don't get +1 reach in Astral combat either. If the physical form was what was important, they would get the reach bonus, the dermal armor bonus, and the body bonus too as they take up more space.

[Pendaric]

However said troll does receive thoughs advantages when astrally perceiving because he is dual natured? Like a active focus, which is solid to both realms. Like a warded wall. When forced through such a barrier the conflict of astral forms must have a resolution. Why then is this not so for inconvenient foci?
To play devils advocate yet again.
The fact the foci is an external yet astrally active entity requires an answer to it simple astral solidity. It may be an emotive echo of its creator but that in its self means it exists the world of magic and emotion.
The crux of this is the difference between astral pyshics and emotive impression.
One sword works but the other does not?
When attacking a spirit in a contest of charisma the weapon is symbolic, this however does not sit well with astral object interation, neh?

[The Stainless St...]

Being totally convinced of the Truth by TheHappyAnarchist, I now humbly recind my earlier statement and entirely agree with his stance and reasoning.

:notworthy:

[stevebugge]

[Herald of Verjig...]

[FrankTrollman]

In SR 1 and SR 2, a dual item is explicitly exactly the same physically and astrally. In SR3 and SR4, a dually active item simply has a physical and astral form at the same time.

So if you are playing 2nd edition Shadowrun, a powerfocus spear should be jabbable into enemies and provide reach. If you are playing 3rd edition shadowrun, a spear that happens to be a power focus looks just like any other power focus on the astral plane, and is no better as a weapon than a powerfocus necklace.

This was one of the largest stealth changes that happened between SR2 and SR3. Dual natured things are no longer "the same" on both planes, they just "exist" on both planes.

-Frank

[TheHappyAnarchis...]

Looks like everyone has picked up on it.

BTW thanks for that info Frank. I started in SR3, playing with an SR2.5 group and eventually read "back" through all the editions. (I own them all now)

I never knew that about 1 and 2.

[hyzmarca]

[FrankTrollman]

[Pendaric]

Thank you gentelmen, the consensus is that such objects function is more important than form.

But for inquireing minds:
Same question however the protagonist with said non weapon focus, for arguments sake a spear, is astral percieving with activated focus. Against a projecting opponent?

[Crusher Bob]

As his opponent has no physical form, the fact that the physical form is sharp and pointy has no bearing. (Watch out for where you are jabbing that thing!). You can still stab things with a physical component with the power focus spear, but when used as a weapon, its no better than any other spear.

Hmm, this implies you could enchant a weapon focus that you intended to use solely on the astral plane as a completely innocous item. Of course, foci are almost trivial to detect anyway, so it dosen't make too much difference.

[stevebugge]

[Herald of Verjig...]