Weapon foci by nature are of course weapons. However all other forms of foci can literally be of any form of mundane item. From pebble to cyberdeck, or car, house and has even been suggested a oil super tanker, abiet with differing levels of difficulty.
Lets assume for the moment that foci are kept to personally mobile scale for now.
We know that all foci become dual natured when they are activated, also that for a character that can astrally project those effects go with the projected persona, while the activated focus remains in contact with the physical body. Also, there are multiple references of sacremental knives, daggers, swords, staves, tomahawks ect used by various magical traditions.
So what would be your rule call on a power (spell/sustaining/centering ect) focus that is in the form of a weapon in astral combat?
Full Version: Foci....a matter of form?
You can use it to fight, but it doesn't change any of the damage codes or anything. The weapons form is not the important part unless it is a weapon focus.
see post below
astral combat isnt done as melee combat now is it? or does weapon foci with reach bonus grant that effect in the astral? i dont recall and cant be botherd to look it up 
Weapon Foci continue to provide reach in Astral Combat. In the basic books of each edition you actually pay Karma for having the reach, though the enchanting rules of each edition leave that out.
-Frank
-Frank
If the question is really: "Can I back door a dual use focus for the price of just a power focus?" Then I would say absolutely no. In astral space form and function are not necessarily related, so while a power focus shaped like a ritual dagger may make a perfectly good knife in the physical world, it is functionally just a power focus on the astral, the form having little effect on it's ability to do psychic-emotive metaphorical damage to the astral form.
so unless its enchanted as a weapon foci based on a weapon with a reach bonus, no bonus...
Yeah, so a weapon focus spear would give a nice reach bonus on astral but a power focus shaped like a spear is just a power focus.
you can double up folci (one object with 2 or more folci "in" it). having a power 2 weapon 3 folci is fun.
Seems some what lacking? As a its dual natured item how can a otherwise astrally solid item not give an advantage? Simply because it gives an unreasonable advantage? If so why?
It's a good point astral has a different emphasis but for all other purposes it is the same as normal combat; position, reach, friends in combat ect
The full advantages of bonus dice and perhapes a increased damage code (weapon focus knives oddly have a lower damages strictly to the rules?
) are of course to be stopped.
However the actual attempt to attack foci in astral combat to destroy them is stated (and long winded), also astral constructs in Target Awaken Lands function as if real in the astral even when they don't manifest.
So to deny any advantage, again, seems lacking...so is there perhapes a middle ground?
It's a good point astral has a different emphasis but for all other purposes it is the same as normal combat; position, reach, friends in combat ect
The full advantages of bonus dice and perhapes a increased damage code (weapon focus knives oddly have a lower damages strictly to the rules?
) are of course to be stopped.However the actual attempt to attack foci in astral combat to destroy them is stated (and long winded), also astral constructs in Target Awaken Lands function as if real in the astral even when they don't manifest.
So to deny any advantage, again, seems lacking...so is there perhapes a middle ground?
hmmm... next time I do a hermetic... he caries all the elements with him as foci.
Pocketfull of dirt... yeah...
(hey, but for a Gaesa for water spells he'd have to spit.
)
Pocketfull of dirt... yeah...
(hey, but for a Gaesa for water spells he'd have to spit.
)
Just don't do it into the direction of the air elemental...
The reason that astral power foci spears are Reach 0 is that the spear is not conceptually a weapon.
A weapon focus spear is imbued with all of the energy and symbolism of the spear as a weapon, keeping foes distant, piercing enemy defenses and so forth.
A power focus spear is imbued with the cultural symbolism of the spear, the metaphysical spear. Power focused and controlled, directed to the goals of the mage.
That is the in game reason that power focus in weapons do not get weapon bonuses on the astral. It is not the actual "solid" part of the item in the astral that gives it power. It is the symbolism and ideas attached to it. One is a symbol of the mages power, and the other is the symbol of a weapon to be used.
Trolls don't get +1 reach in Astral combat either. If the physical form was what was important, they would get the reach bonus, the dermal armor bonus, and the body bonus too as they take up more space.
A weapon focus spear is imbued with all of the energy and symbolism of the spear as a weapon, keeping foes distant, piercing enemy defenses and so forth.
A power focus spear is imbued with the cultural symbolism of the spear, the metaphysical spear. Power focused and controlled, directed to the goals of the mage.
That is the in game reason that power focus in weapons do not get weapon bonuses on the astral. It is not the actual "solid" part of the item in the astral that gives it power. It is the symbolism and ideas attached to it. One is a symbol of the mages power, and the other is the symbol of a weapon to be used.
Trolls don't get +1 reach in Astral combat either. If the physical form was what was important, they would get the reach bonus, the dermal armor bonus, and the body bonus too as they take up more space.
However said troll does receive thoughs advantages when astrally perceiving because he is dual natured? Like a active focus, which is solid to both realms. Like a warded wall. When forced through such a barrier the conflict of astral forms must have a resolution. Why then is this not so for inconvenient foci?
To play devils advocate yet again.
The fact the foci is an external yet astrally active entity requires an answer to it simple astral solidity. It may be an emotive echo of its creator but that in its self means it exists the world of magic and emotion.
The crux of this is the difference between astral pyshics and emotive impression.
One sword works but the other does not?
When attacking a spirit in a contest of charisma the weapon is symbolic, this however does not sit well with astral object interation, neh?
To play devils advocate yet again.
The fact the foci is an external yet astrally active entity requires an answer to it simple astral solidity. It may be an emotive echo of its creator but that in its self means it exists the world of magic and emotion.
The crux of this is the difference between astral pyshics and emotive impression.
One sword works but the other does not?
When attacking a spirit in a contest of charisma the weapon is symbolic, this however does not sit well with astral object interation, neh?
Being totally convinced of the Truth by TheHappyAnarchist, I now humbly recind my earlier statement and entirely agree with his stance and reasoning.
| QUOTE (Pendaric) |
| To play devils advocate yet again. The fact the foci is an external yet astrally active entity requires an answer to it simple astral solidity. It may be an emotive echo of its creator but that in its self means it exists the world of magic and emotion. The crux of this is the difference between astral pyshics and emotive impression. One sword works but the other does not? When attacking a spirit in a contest of charisma the weapon is symbolic, this however does not sit well with astral object interation, neh? |
Situation A: Two physical beings astrally percieving with identical power focus swords fighting each other. The swords function as normal swords when used as weapons, doing damage based on sharp edges, mass, and inertia.
Situation B: Physical astrally perceiving being fighting spirit or other fully astral entity with a sword shaped power focus. The mass and sharpness of the sword have no bearing on damaging the astral entity, however if you hid in a hollow tree stump and laid the sword accross the opening and held on the spirit may not be able to pass through the opening (without first defeating the focus). Swinging the focus at the spirit won't directly do damage but the intense negative emotional energy directed at the spirit will.
Situation C: same combatants as situation A, only both are projecting. The focuses have no mass in astral space, and while their shape and image remain, they are not imbued with the psycho-emotive stuff of weaponry but that of Focus and Calm required for working magic. Astrally present they can be afftected, and can't occupy the same space as another astral being, but aside from hindering movement they have no further effect, as they have none of the physical characteristics of a sword in astral space even though they are present and 'solid'
| QUOTE (Pendaric) |
| The fact the foci is an external yet astrally active entity requires an answer to it simple astral solidity. It may be an emotive echo of its creator but that in its self means it exists the world of magic and emotion. The crux of this is the difference between astral pyshics and emotive impression. One sword works but the other does not? When attacking a spirit in a contest of charisma the weapon is symbolic, this however does not sit well with astral object interation, neh? |
A focus is bound with karma to the wielder. It can be used as a ritual link to the wielder. For all magical intents and purposes, it is part of the wielder. Also, the contest of wills is defined against a manifest spirit, not a purely astral one.
In SR 1 and SR 2, a dual item is explicitly exactly the same physically and astrally. In SR3 and SR4, a dually active item simply has a physical and astral form at the same time.
So if you are playing 2nd edition Shadowrun, a powerfocus spear should be jabbable into enemies and provide reach. If you are playing 3rd edition shadowrun, a spear that happens to be a power focus looks just like any other power focus on the astral plane, and is no better as a weapon than a powerfocus necklace.
This was one of the largest stealth changes that happened between SR2 and SR3. Dual natured things are no longer "the same" on both planes, they just "exist" on both planes.
-Frank
So if you are playing 2nd edition Shadowrun, a powerfocus spear should be jabbable into enemies and provide reach. If you are playing 3rd edition shadowrun, a spear that happens to be a power focus looks just like any other power focus on the astral plane, and is no better as a weapon than a powerfocus necklace.
This was one of the largest stealth changes that happened between SR2 and SR3. Dual natured things are no longer "the same" on both planes, they just "exist" on both planes.
-Frank
Looks like everyone has picked up on it.
BTW thanks for that info Frank. I started in SR3, playing with an SR2.5 group and eventually read "back" through all the editions. (I own them all now)
I never knew that about 1 and 2.
BTW thanks for that info Frank. I started in SR3, playing with an SR2.5 group and eventually read "back" through all the editions. (I own them all now)
I never knew that about 1 and 2.
| QUOTE (Pendaric @ Dec 15 2005, 06:34 PM) |
| However said troll does receive thoughs advantages when astrally perceiving because he is dual natured? Like a active focus, which is solid to both realms. Like a warded wall. When forced through such a barrier the conflict of astral forms must have a resolution. Why then is this not so for inconvenient foci? To play devils advocate yet again. |
Not a warded wall. There is no such thing as a warded wall. There is only a warded area that uses a physical wall as its one of its boundries. Astral barriers are three deminsional entities. It is a trivial distinction but an important one, as well, due to the realities of astral movement.
Forcing a spirit through an astral barrier works because the astral plane mirrior the physical world in one specific way, two objects cannot exist in the same space at the same time. The key word, however, is forcing. If you hit an astral form with another astra form they'll just bounce off each other due to the lack on inertia. If you hit an astral form with a dual natured form the astral form will bounce off but the dual natured one will remain stationary since it is anchored to a physical form. If you impale a dual natured form with another dual naured form then their astral components will be forced into a contest. In such an event your sword is often more likely to die from the contest than your your opponet is.
In any event, it is a cumbersome use of the rules. It is far better just to reserve the astral barrier rules for their inteded purpose, using shapeshifters as astral battering rams. Although, there is something to be said for grabbing a ghoul be the ankels and using it to beat a manifested spirit to death.
Incidently, are the SR4 rules writting so consistantly as to resolve the ghoul-club delima?
| QUOTE |
| Incidently, are the SR4 rules writting so consistantly as to resolve the ghoul-club delema? |
Well, a Ghoul has an astral form with a body equal to its Willpower. A body is usable as an (improvised) weapon using of all things the Unarmed Combat skill. It does (BOD/2) damage. So you could beat on an astral form with a Ghoul (Willpower 5) and it would do 3S or 3P damage. All attacks against astral foes can do physical or stun damage at the discretion of the attacker. (SR4. Pgs. 149, 184, and 292)
-Frank
Thank you gentelmen, the consensus is that such objects function is more important than form.
But for inquireing minds:
Same question however the protagonist with said non weapon focus, for arguments sake a spear, is astral percieving with activated focus. Against a projecting opponent?
But for inquireing minds:
Same question however the protagonist with said non weapon focus, for arguments sake a spear, is astral percieving with activated focus. Against a projecting opponent?
As his opponent has no physical form, the fact that the physical form is sharp and pointy has no bearing. (Watch out for where you are jabbing that thing!). You can still stab things with a physical component with the power focus spear, but when used as a weapon, its no better than any other spear.
Hmm, this implies you could enchant a weapon focus that you intended to use solely on the astral plane as a completely innocous item. Of course, foci are almost trivial to detect anyway, so it dosen't make too much difference.
Hmm, this implies you could enchant a weapon focus that you intended to use solely on the astral plane as a completely innocous item. Of course, foci are almost trivial to detect anyway, so it dosen't make too much difference.
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob) |
| Hmm, this implies you could enchant a weapon focus that you intended to use solely on the astral plane as a completely innocous item. Of course, foci are almost trivial to detect anyway, so it dosen't make too much difference. |
Technically I think that is true, however in the case of the Weapon Focus the form is to a large degree a part of the function, so a physically disguised weapon focus should be more difficult to bond and use in my opinion, due to the fact that the person bonding it has to convince themselves and place faith in the fact that their cuff links are actually deadly weapons of incredible power.
RANDOM THOUGHT: Short Monowhip disguised as a cufflink, any takers?
| QUOTE (stevebugge @ Dec 16 2005, 10:42 AM) |
| RANDOM THOUGHT: Short Monowhip disguised as a cufflink, any takers? |
What do you mean short? The whole two meters of monofilament can be wound up in a very small volume, just make sure the cufflink system includes both a winding mechanism and a small lead weight.
Since a weapon focus provides material benefit from its enchanting (extra dice, anti-regenerative effects) you can probably get away with an enchanted cigarette lighter, just as long as you don't mind doing (STR-2)L Stun in combat. Since astral damage is (Charisma)M or as weapon focus, that works against the stealth focus.
However, as a house rule, you may be able to get away with spending more on materials and maybe karma to bind a stronger astral form to a simple item. I might allow someone who crafts a halberd out of herbal radicals and then burns it while enchanting his pocketwatch focus to use the reach 2 halberd in astral combat but the frail little pocketwatch in physical combat.
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) | ||
What do you mean short? The whole two meters of monofilament can be wound up in a very small volume, just make sure the cufflink system includes both a winding mechanism and a small lead weight. |
For the actual design I was thinking that you would use a gold ball style pin, the gold ball would serve as the weight (gold is about the same ddensity as lead) and then have housing and winding mechanism that was largely flat (and to the greatest degree possible non metallic) and could be hidden inside ones sleeve, and used as a handle when deployed. Your right a 2 meter spool of monowire would be very large at all, so no need to shorten it up. Ok you are definitly going to destroy your shirt cuffs when you deploy this but hey that's a small price to pay to get a monowhip in to a secure area.
just uh, be carefull with that thing. that has the possibility of going real bad real fast if you get some bad rolls.
/GM: your wrist falls off.
/GM: your wrist falls off.
| QUOTE (Fix-it) |
| just uh, be carefull with that thing. that has the possibility of going real bad real fast if you get some bad rolls. /GM: your wrist falls off. |
No no, blood spurts from your wrist in a fine high pressure circular mist for several seconds. Then, when the spurting stops, your hand and wrist slowly slide off of your arm as gravity pulls them down.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) | ||
No no, blood spurts from your wrist in a fine high pressure circular mist for several seconds. Then, when the spurting stops, your hand and wrist slowly slide off of your arm as gravity pulls them down. |
As a player I don't think I'd use it, as a GM it may appear to either A tempt players or B cause mayhem and or hillarity when it appears in the hands (or up the sleeves) of an NPC
All I can say about any monowhip weapon focus is that you are using them against spirits and spirits often have the accident power. This is ill advisable.
When you damage someone astrally you are assualting their 'soul' or 'ideal' What makes them who they are. You are not ripping holes in them or displacing astral 'matter'. Therefor the physical form is still not important.
A ward still has effects (squishing unpleasantly and such) but that is because a ward has the 'idea' of immovable object, stopping you from progressing. It is another way of attacking an astral form, by pressing them against an immovable object.
When you damage someone astrally you are assualting their 'soul' or 'ideal' What makes them who they are. You are not ripping holes in them or displacing astral 'matter'. Therefor the physical form is still not important.
A ward still has effects (squishing unpleasantly and such) but that is because a ward has the 'idea' of immovable object, stopping you from progressing. It is another way of attacking an astral form, by pressing them against an immovable object.
| QUOTE (TheHappyAnarchist) |
| All I can say about any monowhip weapon focus is that you are using them against spirits and spirits often have the accident power. This is ill advisable. When you damage someone astrally you are assualting their 'soul' or 'ideal' What makes them who they are. You are not ripping holes in them or displacing astral 'matter'. Therefor the physical form is still not important. A ward still has effects (squishing unpleasantly and such) but that is because a ward has the 'idea' of immovable object, stopping you from progressing. It is another way of attacking an astral form, by pressing them against an immovable object. |
Actually my monowhip idea was not intended to be a weapon focus, that was a random tangent I caused when I saw the words cuff links and deadly weapon in the same sentence. I agree Accident Power + Monowhip = Trouble
As for the Ideal part of your explanation, that reminds me a lot of Plato's Allegory of The Cave ( http://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/cave.htm for those not well versed in classical studies, a quick summary ) In fact much of Astral behavior seems to be based on Plato's Theory of Forms (or maybe Plato's Theory of Forms is based on Astral Space, hmmm... runs to recover classical works brewing in my mind)
Interesting points. There is the astral sword spell (check the SR ring) as potential option in the proposed possibility of a nonweapon weapon focus? frightening implications there for debate.
To add to my own question, I find the arguments made against an increased damage or advantage valid...until applied to the actual dynamics of dual natured creature interaction.
The gargoyle receives its hardened armour, the troll it's high strength and reach and the increased damage code of critter attacks across the board. Which are of course derived from their physical weaponry and strength while in combat with astral beings. Which flys in the face of a otherwise valid proposition. Why therefore not for foci?
Here we met the dilemma that attracted my attention and mirth. A hair line fracture between the to interlacing styles of astral interaction.
Hence my questions, which I hope prove interesting topics for discussion, to broaden and receive imaginative possibilities.
To add to my own question, I find the arguments made against an increased damage or advantage valid...until applied to the actual dynamics of dual natured creature interaction.
The gargoyle receives its hardened armour, the troll it's high strength and reach and the increased damage code of critter attacks across the board. Which are of course derived from their physical weaponry and strength while in combat with astral beings. Which flys in the face of a otherwise valid proposition. Why therefore not for foci?
Here we met the dilemma that attracted my attention and mirth. A hair line fracture between the to interlacing styles of astral interaction.
Hence my questions, which I hope prove interesting topics for discussion, to broaden and receive imaginative possibilities.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.