 Shapeshifters in Sr4?, I've seen ghoul Conversions.... |
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 Dec 16 2005, 06:40 AM
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#3
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Prime Runner  Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665  |
I think it's pretty clear that different animals have to be costed separately. Tigers and Rats are wicked awesome, but wolves and foxes just aren't.
A shapeshifter character doesn't need heavy mental stat modifiers, because ordinary critters have much more normal mental stats than they did in previous editions. So you'd just make a human character. B: 1/6 A: 1/6 R: 1/6 S: 1/6 C: 3/8 I: 1/6 L: 1/6 W: 1/6 Edg: 1/6 Ess: 8 Mag: 1/6 Powers: Dual Natured, Regeneration Weaknesses: Allergy (Silver, Severe), Sensitive System, Uneducated Then, when you turn into your animal form, you get modifiers to your physical attributes and abilities as follows: Wolf: Natural Weapon = Strength, Movement = 10/50 Great Cat: B+3, A+2, R+1, S+2, Natural Weapon = Strength, Movement = 10/60 Rat: B-2, A+2, R+2, S-2, -1 Reach Shark: A+2, R+2, Natural Weapon = Strength+2, Movement = 20/60 (swimming) Now... costs? That's a tough one. The wolf form is almost completely worthless, while the Rat form provides great stealth potential, the Tiger form provides some brutal brawling, and the Shark form allows you to swim at high speed. Now that Magic is no longer tied to Essence, the Shapeshifter's Essence of 8 is no longer game breaking for a player character to have. Basically, you're an Elf who is Dual Natured and gets Regeneration and a fundamental difficulty dealing with modern society instead of Lowlight Vision and a bonus Agility. My gut feeling is that that's almost balanced with the new Regeneration, and we should be looking at about 40 points for a Wolf, 50 points for a Rat or Shark, and 60 points for a Tiger or Jaguar. -Frank |
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Dec 16 2005, 06:49 AM
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#4
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
There is a thread on various possibilities and tacts to take. I haven't heard of anyone doing extensive playtesting yet of those things.
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Dec 16 2005, 06:52 AM
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#5
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Your god should irrevokably foresake you for those thoughts. :) |
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Dec 16 2005, 09:30 AM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 775 Joined: 31-March 05 From: florida Member No.: 7,273 |
you do realize that you're a bloody human sized rat right. You'd be fraggin huge |
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Dec 16 2005, 02:34 PM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 51 Joined: 15-December 05 Member No.: 8,074 |
Shapeshifters can also go into a full animal form, at least they used to be able to. Ergo, you're a rat-sized rat.
I'd love to see more done on this - Kitsune (from the SNES game) was always a cool Shadowrun character. :) |
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Dec 16 2005, 04:52 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
Frank, what about the stat modifiers to Human and Animal form? In SR3 Wolf got +1 bod/str/Cha in human +2 to bod +1 quick/strength, what happened to that?
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Dec 16 2005, 04:59 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 14-October 05 Member No.: 7,844 |
The flaw in that is only humans may be shapeshifters in SR3. |
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Dec 16 2005, 05:18 PM
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#10
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
Thank gawd for that, who'd want to face off against a pack of troll werewolves? or weresharks? or whatever else. |
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Dec 16 2005, 05:23 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 18-November 05 Member No.: 7,978 |
Not entirely correct. There were no human shapeshifters, per se. They were animals that took human form.
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Dec 16 2005, 05:29 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 14-October 05 Member No.: 7,844 |
Correct you are. What I mean to say is that a human character and only a human character may take shapeshifter as a race. But you are correct. Shapeshfiters are not human.
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Dec 16 2005, 06:06 PM
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#13
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
What happened to that was that it never applied to shapeshifters generally, it only applied to player character shapeshifters. The standard was that Shapeshifters had crazy large stats in everything - including the Enhanced Physical Attributes power that added their Essence to all physical stats. Player characters got to play nerfed shapeshifters with a unique regeneration that wasn't nearly as good as normal. Judging by the SR4 Vampire and the SR4 Wolf, critters who used to get huge across the board physical bonuses don't any more. The old Wolf was: B: 5 Q: 5 S: 4 The old Shapeshifter was: B: 5 Q: 4 S: 5 And the new wolf is a much more realistic: B: 2 A: 3 R: 3 S: 2 So while the animal kingdom is getting scaled down to that degree, I don't think it's unreasonable for the statline of a Shapeshifter to drop to: B: 3 A: 3 R: 3 S: 3 Now Mental stats are another story. They haven't really come down much (mostly because the old editions never handed out fetishistically high mental attributes like they did with physical attributes. So Shapeshifters had a Charisma bonus of similar size to an Elf, and generally critters in SR4 are keeping that kind of bonus, so it stays.
Yes. They look human, but in actuality they have attributes more similar to that of an Elf. And that being the case, I'm looking at Elf from a starting point for game balance purposes. The fundamental changes in SR4 that make Shapeshifters reasonable as player characters are that Regeneration is no longer nearly as game dominating, and whoever wrote the ordinary critters figured out that humans outmass and outreach wolves and a grown man beating a wolf to death with a stick isn't all that impressive a feat. -Frank |
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Dec 16 2005, 06:34 PM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 15-April 04 Member No.: 6,248 |
I have been thinking about this as well. The thing is, I don't really care for how shapeshifters were handled in any of the sr editions. The same can be said for vampires as well. Before I set any of these ideas in stone, I want to finish reading 4th (i recieved it 2 days ago). What I was thinking was for the shapeshifters there is only the wolf to chose from, and when he/she changes they resemble what you would expect in the movies (i.e. underworld, the howling, ect). For the wolfs, I was thing of granting a +2 to strength, a +1 to reaction, and +1 to agility. As for their attribute max, I would double whatever their max score for str was according to their race, and multiply their max for reaction and str by 1.5. When the character begins to surpass their normal racial max for their attributes, they do not have their score increased beyond that until they shape shift -example- a human werewolf has a str score of 8. While in human form, his str is still marked as a 6. Once he changes, that is when he gains the 8 str. In wolf form they would also have claw and bite attacks (i am not sure what I would list the damage as, since I am not finished reading sr4). As for healing abillity, I was thinking that they would be able to heal an amount of damage per combat turn (not round) equal to their bod score unless the damage was caused by silver in which case it would take twice as long to heal as if it were a wound inflicted on a normal person. I would do something with their astral sig (not sure what as of yet as I have not finished reading the awakend chapter yet). They would not be able to use cyberware, and any inplants that they have would be painfully pushed out. As for infection rules and resisting the virus if you get bit, I am not sure... I need to read more before deciding. As for build cost I was thinking somewhere between 30 and 40 points. The thing is, even if someone makes a werewolf during character creation using these rules, they are not really overpowered. They have the potential to be powerfull later on in the game if they survive the vampire runins (assuming that the vamps and wolves hate eachother ala underworld), corporate researchers who would love to get their hands on you, pissed off mages shamans and anything else that can assence you warped signature. The vamps would be built along the same principles. Hope this helps some people out if for nothing else than brainstorming some of your own ideas.
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Dec 16 2005, 07:03 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 14-October 05 Member No.: 7,844 |
Another thing is that being dual natured is more of a weakness than a strength. They are constantly in the astral plane. As a shapeshifter, you are a big bright shining beacon in the astral plane. Therefore, they are vulnerable to detection, attack, etc at all times in that plane.
Edit: Also, a shapeshifter's astral form is that of their animal form. No matter what, that tiger shapeshifter will always be a tiger in the astral plane. The only way to counter this is by having initiate masking. |
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Dec 16 2005, 07:16 PM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
I understand where you are coming from Frank, but what about shapeshifter characters being converted from SR3, do they just loes out on their attributes because animal attributes changed?
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Dec 16 2005, 07:27 PM
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#17
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
No. They also get all those points back that they used to be forced to cough up to maintain two stat lines. They get handed back the real regeneration instead of complicated and watered down healing system that applied only to them. Attributes have been reigned in severely in SR4. Shapeshifters are going to necessarily get the brunt of that because they were so attribute focused in SR3. But ultimately I think they'll find that the fact that they can transform into a lion and be a reasonably powerful lion is going to more than make up for the fact that they no longer have inexplicable bonuses to their human-form physical attributes. In fact, for any character that tried to maintain good attributes in both forms in the old rules, the outlook on physical attributes is actually going to be better. While you no longer get +4 divided amongst your physical attributes, you also don't have to buy a second set of physical attributes - which would have set you back 9 attribute points just to be average. It's actually much cheaper to be physically impressive under these rules than in the nerftastic rules presented in SR3. -Frank |
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Dec 16 2005, 07:32 PM
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#18
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Even if they do, it's not much of a loss as they don't have to double-pay for physical stats anymore. PC shifters in SR3 tended to be real weaklings in human form because otherwise they'd have no points to spend anywhere else.
(Edit: minja'd, by a far more eloquent poster :)) |
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Dec 16 2005, 08:41 PM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
What's the reason that shifters in SR3 could only assume a human form (instead of a metahuman form)? Just a game balance issue?
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Dec 16 2005, 08:46 PM
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#20
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Shapeshifters aren't humans that turn into animals. They are animals that can transform themselves to look like humans. Now there's no special reason to think that they couldn't look like a human that happened to look like an Elf, but they don't actually get anything for that. They are still a badger (or whatever) that looks like a (meta)human. So since Shapeshifters don't have low-light vision, they are probably best off impersonating a human. But especially if you take adept powers of enhanced senses, there's no special reason to believe that a seal can't impersnate an Elf, just that it's fundamentally more difficult than impersonating a normal human. -Frank |
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Dec 16 2005, 08:58 PM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
If I ever came up with a set of shifter rules that didn't give me heartburn, I'd probably allow them to choose a meta-human form to shift into, as long as they paid the chargen for that form. In other words, if I decided that race=tiger shifter cost 40 points, then they could choose a hominid form of troll for an additional 40 points.
Doesn't seem to be much point, though. Spending the points to kick ass in tiger form seems to undermine the value of being able to kick ass when shifted into a troll... [edit] On second thought, maybe not. Any of the meta forms would require me to decide how to handle the mental attribute modifiers, and madness lay down that path... [edit#2] For sake of argument, I'm posting the straw man from the other thread (after editing to take blakkie's feedback into account) [ Spoiler ]
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Dec 17 2005, 04:00 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 9-October 05 Member No.: 7,827 |
Must do list of exotic races for caracters so someone can get rules ready then
HMHVV characters-RegVamp-NosVamp-Goblin-Banshee-Windigo-DooNaQuazNa/Formoi{Mutaquad}-LoupGaurow AI's & Free Spirits Sasquatches(Yeti)?????---Please!!!! Earthdawn level one--Windlings(Sprites ;) )-T'Skrang-ObsidianMen???? Earthdawn Extra_____Jackelmen!!!! Para & Normal Animals---Merrow, Naga, Leshey,__Elephants & Dolphins???? Please mention any Extras I might of missed Later |
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Dec 17 2005, 04:17 AM
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#23
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Apathy: I hav serious problems buying seals dodging bullets. They can't even dodge my club most of the time. Your animal stats seem completely out of touch and way crazy high.
boskop-albatros: I think at a minimum, a potential player character must be able to participate in common adventures. That means that your character must be able to ride in an airplane, fit into an elevator, and walk around in a bar. So while you could play a Sasquatch, a Ghoul or a Shapeshifter, and you might be able to play a Free Spirit or a Formorian, there's no way in hell that you could play a dolphin, an elephant, or an obsidiman. Sorry, Obsidimen were playable in Earthdawn because being half a tonne wasn't a severe problem back when transporation was possibly as good as a horse. Now that people really can just get into an airplane and go to Formosa for breakfast, being unable to ride human transports means you just can't be a player character. -Frank |
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Dec 17 2005, 04:32 AM
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#24
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
That's why I called it a straw-man. You think the stats are too high (and I agree...) - ok, what are the right stats? |
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Dec 17 2005, 04:45 AM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 9-October 05 Member No.: 7,827 |
Ok first if there arre any obsidianmen around and they need to travel wouldn't they just use a bigboat? (or just stay around their liferock in the remote awakened lands)
also just gotta ask---what about Dragons?___NOT GREAT FORMS & LASTLY ReticulanGrays---YES THE ALIENS THAT MICHEAL JACKSON LOOKS LIKE? & more---reptiliod aliens (the ones The president(yes BushJr.) are supossed to be--NOT T'Skrang Star Warrior Space Dwarves(Blue skinned and No body hair) Nordic human looking aliens (from the plaidies) Black looking human aliens (form alpha centari) AmericanIndian looking human aliens (from Epsilion Endri) Thank You |
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Dec 17 2005, 11:27 AM
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#26
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 3-October 05 From: Ann Arbor, MI Member No.: 7,803 |
....wuh...? :dead: |
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Dec 17 2005, 11:31 AM
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#27
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398 |
...
Are you insane? |
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