 Has anyone ever played a decker who sold programs? |
  |
 Dec 17 2005, 06:19 AM
Post
#1
|
|
|
Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019  |
I'm sure many players compile their own programs. How profitable would it be to sell them on the Matrix with copy protection and everything? This is assuming that you undercut Hacker House by about 20%.
|
 |
 
|
|
Dec 17 2005, 06:29 AM
Post
#2
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
No. No one ever has. The reason is because it is so ridiculously profitable that obviously something must prevent it, what with Deckers ever doing anything else and all.
~J |
|
|
|
|
Dec 17 2005, 01:08 PM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 51 Joined: 15-December 05 Member No.: 8,074 |
PC hackers? Bad plan, as was mentioned above - it's too profitable, lol. That and "Hacker House" is probably going to come off you. :P
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 17 2005, 01:25 PM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
This and orichalcum factory are generally disliked as aspects of a PC for Shadowrun. However, they are both perfectly valid for "Small Business, Shadow Edition."
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 17 2005, 02:09 PM
Post
#5
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398 |
Hehehe.
The current retirement plans for my street sam, Katklaw, is to acquire enough :nuyen: to start up and run an orichalcum factory. 2-3 Wage Mages w/ Enchanting (Alchemy) 5(7) working to produce orichalcum non-stop would make him very rich, very quickly. Make the company rich, too. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 18 2005, 02:27 AM
Post
#6
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 611 Joined: 21-October 03 From: Yorkshire Toxic Zone Member No.: 5,752 |
OK, so ideas on how to stop them please? My players have just latched on to this one, and are set to make a killing.
I've employed the 'do this too often and people are going to start looking for you' tactic, as well as the 'you might affect the SOTA if you're sell too many copies' but they just decided to be real careful, and only sell 20 copies of the black hammer 8 they'd written, to individual buyers who check out via contacts, and to only sell two copies a month, plus a percentage to hacker haven/shadowland for their vetting and hosting services. They're making about 16mill this year (acquired gradually over the year). However, I AM going to roll for SOTA increases on programs every month to see what happens, which will devalue their product. They'll probably still end up with about ten mill though. This isn't actually that much of a problem in the campaign they're in, and most of that cash is already earmarked for some deltaware they've got coming in any case. But if they do it again, it could become a problem, even at one program a year which is what they're planning. They have the skillz, and the technology (its a high threat campaign as of the last session, by the way, because they've just had a load of downtime to train and set up projects. Before that it was high-resource, medium threat). Their plan seems pretty reliable, though. Obviously, its not 100% but they aren't drawing attention to themselves except to the people at Shadowland sysops, who I get the impression aren't the sort to routinely sell out their customers. Open to ideas as to how to control this in a way that doesn't upset the players or feel like I'm railroading them though. I'd just rather the gameworld didn't get its economy busted, and I'm out of ideas! |
|
|
|
|
Dec 18 2005, 02:44 AM
Post
#7
|
|||
|
Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
If your wage-mages don't jump ship when they figure out they can make more money doing the same thing by themselves! |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 18 2005, 02:50 AM
Post
#8
|
|||
|
Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
My player came upon the same plan and had me worried, so I just kept him stupid busy for the next couple of sessions. This involved bailing out a buddy from some trouble, making a trip to Chi-town, making a trip to San Fran, not to mention, the market for Black Hammer>8 isn't exactly huge so it took a while to find buyers, which naturally cut into programming time. What really busted it for him though was when I set his character up with a girlfriend. Oh yeah, that really fragged him. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 18 2005, 04:05 AM
Post
#9
|
|
|
Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
Throw him for major plot related loops.
A black hammer 8 is major sting operation bait. quite a few people will line up to buy it, and half of them will be FBI/Police/etc. ready to traceroute him and bust his door for illegal software and hardware. Or, give him a "Misnamed file" case. Ok, so he sells a copy, and all of the sudden some people who use it start getting Psychotropic IC effects on themselves. he has to clear his name in the decking community (good luck there) and find out who introduced the bad copy of the program. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 18 2005, 04:22 AM
Post
#10
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 560 Joined: 21-December 04 Member No.: 6,893 |
I would state that writing a program according to SR4 rules would requiring using a lot of GPL'd code. Just because he cobbled it together does'nt mean that he wrote it from scratch. Doing it from scratch would likely require several times as long.
Also, said programs are generally optimized for the decker's own deck. Writing one optimized for multiple deck hardware configurations would be tricky in it's own right. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 18 2005, 04:27 AM
Post
#11
|
|
|
Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
I think I told one of my players way back when he asked "Can I just copy my program and give it to <X>", something similar.
It was like, <activate bullshit mode> "Sure, you could, but the program you bought was optimized based on your deck's specifications, on <X>'s deck, it would take up the same amount of space but the effective rating would be lower." |
|
|
|
|
Dec 18 2005, 05:01 AM
Post
#12
|
|||
|
Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
the best part is, it's not even bullshit. deckers live on speed and stealth. if you, the decker DONT optimize and tweak the hell out of every aspect of your 'ware, you are just asking to get iced. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 18 2005, 05:17 AM
Post
#13
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 17-November 05 Member No.: 7,977 |
An orichalcum factory?
I hope you've got some beefy security for a place like that. Any two bit shadowrun team looking to make a few bucks would kick in the door, blast everyone to death and run off with as much as they could carry. Even with good security, you'll still have raptors testing the electric fence all the time. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 18 2005, 07:14 AM
Post
#14
|
|
|
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Now here's the real question...
What happens if you take something like this, fail to copy-protect it... Leave no identifying marks... And use a completely anon account to wideband it. (IE: use a 'clean' deck to do the upload, use a tapped dataline.) |
|
|
|
|
Dec 18 2005, 08:17 AM
Post
#15
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Then you die when someone hits you with it a few weeks later.
~J |
|
|
|
|
Dec 18 2005, 08:21 AM
Post
#16
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 204 Joined: 27-October 05 From: Waterloo, ON Member No.: 7,900 |
Another problem with selling a program you've created is that there's nothing stopping the first person you sell BLACK HAMMER to try it out on a convenient target he suddenly owes money to... oops. Or turning around and selling it to people for a fraction of what you're charging. Or, as someone else mentioned, being a cop.
And anything you do add to the code to prevent these things is just going to piss off a buyer who doesn't want a virus being transmitted. "No, it's just code to prevent you from using it on me!" "Sure it is. And broadcast my moves to Lone Star if I mess with anything you don't like." Hell, what's stopping you from just selling code, claiming it's black hammer, and then absconding with the money? |
|
|
|
|
Dec 18 2005, 08:56 AM
Post
#17
|
|||||||||||
|
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
The fact that if you're bad-ass enough to be marketing Black Hammer, you're going to pwn his ass in cybercombat, and if he tries it on you, all of your friends will hunt his meat down for a quick roast over an open spit?
Copy protection. In SR, it's quite advanced. You can copy it from the chip, but not from a copy off the chip.
There's the real rub. Simple, you take the precautions you'd take as a Mr. Johnson. You put the word out on a prospective buyer of this heat. If it comes back as being from the 'Star, the Black Hammer you give him involves cybercombat. Or you dissapear. One or the other. Depends on just how ballsy/outside of the 'Star's jurisdiction and reach you are.
And you certainly are going to advertise any specials you cook in, right?
Angry deckers waiting to ambush you the moment you log on to Shadowland? REALLY pissed off Deckers hiring a Team (or putting together their own Run) to get you dead and take their pay back - with interest?
|
||||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||||
|
Dec 18 2005, 02:06 PM
Post
#18
|
|||||||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398 |
Which is why he hires SINless mages and ropes them into an exclusive five-year contract. With that said, he'll probably give them a 25% cut. It'll be better than they'd get elsewhere. They'd also get 1 month (unpaid) vacation, though if they ruin their current batch of orichalcum, however long they had been going for would count.
Monowire fences, smart sentry turrets, wards, bound spirits, a security rigger, and Ares Knight Errant teams hired as security. It'll cost quite a bit to get set up. An up-front cost of 100k :nuyen: for the enchanting shop, 100k :nuyen: a month for the Luxury lifestyle (the cost of the rent of and security for the premises). |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Dec 18 2005, 06:08 PM
Post
#19
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 204 Joined: 27-October 05 From: Waterloo, ON Member No.: 7,900 |
[QUOTE][QUOTE]Another problem with selling a program you've created is that there's nothing stopping the first person you sell BLACK HAMMER to try it out on a convenient target he suddenly owes money to... oops.[/QUOTE] The fact that if you're bad-ass enough to be marketing Black Hammer, you're going to pwn his ass in cybercombat, and if he tries it on you, all of your friends will hunt his meat down for a quick roast over an open spit?[/QUOTE] If he's got 1,280,000 nuyen just "on hand", I'd bet he's no slouch in the Matrix either. [QUOTE][QUOTE]Or, as someone else mentioned, being a cop.[/QUOTE] There's the real rub. Simple, you take the precautions you'd take as a Mr. Johnson. You put the word out on a prospective buyer of this heat. If it comes back as being from the 'Star, the Black Hammer you give him involves cybercombat. Or you dissapear. One or the other. Depends on just how ballsy/outside of the 'Star's jurisdiction and reach you are.[/QUOTE] Doesn't this assume that this cop is a bit of an idiot? I'd assume that anything a decker could do to discover someone's identity, the cop can do things to prevent his identity from being discovered, so if it doesn't come back as he's from LS, and it turns out he is, then you're into cybercombat, and wasn't LS the progenitors of Black Hammer? [QUOTE][QUOTE]And anything you do add to the code to prevent these things is just going to piss off a buyer who doesn't want a virus being transmitted. "No, it's just code to prevent you from using it on me!" "Sure it is. And broadcast my moves to Lone Star if I mess with anything you don't like."[/QUOTE] And you certainly are going to advertise any specials you cook in, right?[/QUOTE] What drekhat buys a program without running analyze on it for extras? [QUOTE]QUOTE]Hell, what's stopping you from just selling code, claiming it's black hammer, and then absconding with the money?[/QUOTE] Angry deckers waiting to ambush you the moment you log on to Shadowland? REALLY pissed off Deckers hiring a Team (or putting together their own Run) to get you dead and take their pay back - with interest?[/QUOTE] Oh, yeah, because doublecrosses *always* get punished by a group of anarchic hackers with varying moral codes. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 18 2005, 08:23 PM
Post
#20
|
|||||||||
|
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Learn to format.
Yeah, but if he was bad-ass enough to do it himself, he would have wrote it himself, and kept his :nuyen:.
Apparently, you vastly underestimate the value of having a Contact (level 3) in Lone Star's Cyber-Division, who can say "Oh, that guy? Yeah, he's part of a sting that Captain Cujo's running. And he's a real asshole, too. You oughta just cyber-dissapear for a month. That, or flatline him." Also, the Chinese invented gunpowder, what's your point?
And again, if he was good enough to be successfully analyzing and working on programs of this complexity, he'd have programmed it himself. It could transmit his moves to the 'Star, it could be the "Analyze brainwaves" routine for all he knows.
When you're running scams and worse that they or their chummers might get burned on, yes, they will. It's like if someone set up a cheap-ass machine shop and set about making fake Predators, with extra attention spent on looking identical to the real thing, but when you start firing them, they have a nasty tendancy to blow apart. Some Shadowurners are coming after you, if not from Ares for violation of copyright and patent, than because someone they like got hurt. Or it may even get combined, and some Shadowrunners would approach Ares with the offer of taking you down, lest your cheap ass fakes fall into friendly hands and get someone hurt. |
||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||
|
Dec 18 2005, 08:34 PM
Post
#21
|
|
|
Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Oh course, a PC who has to buy a black hammer 8 will never fall for this stuff though. :P
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 18 2005, 08:37 PM
Post
#22
|
|
|
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
PCs don't get to be PCs by being idiots, now do they?
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 18 2005, 08:41 PM
Post
#23
|
|
|
Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
What I'm saying is that by your line of reasoning, your assuming that every person your selling to is an idiot.
Just because a person has to buy a gun doesn't mean they don't know how to use it. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 18 2005, 08:55 PM
Post
#24
|
|
|
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
No. But they probably will not know how to manufacture it, and chances are they won't know how to tell if it was made with cheap shitty materials if you've spent attention to making it look right.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 18 2005, 09:03 PM
Post
#25
|
|
|
Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
But suppose they *do* know how to compile black hammer 8 themselves, they just don't have the time. I really have to go with what was said earlier, if a person is going to be running a high-dig program like that, and they have the money to throw around in order to buy it, it'd be a terrible assumption to bank on them not knowing what they're doing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 12th May 2026 - 07:13 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.