 Problems with Trolls in SR |
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 Dec 20 2005, 05:52 AM
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#26
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Manus Celer Dei  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802  |
They do. Cannon Companion lists rules for compensation at high Strengths.
~J |
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Dec 20 2005, 05:53 AM
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#27
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
I was thinking of mass rather than STR, but for a troll sammie, all the same, innit? :)
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Dec 20 2005, 06:20 AM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 204 Joined: 27-October 05 From: Waterloo, ON Member No.: 7,900 |
That's covered in cannon companion, p.103: any character with strength 6 or more gains at least 1 point of recoil compensation. So all but the wimpiest troll gets it.
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Dec 20 2005, 06:38 AM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 175 Joined: 15-July 04 From: Imperial Japan Member No.: 6,483 |
Another thing about being troll is you dont need a Gyromount or any kind of pod to be standing and firing your heavy weapons. Your huge size alongs you to do that, even if you dont have a body and strength of 8. If you are a troll numbers in that issue doesnt matter.
Covered in CC as well |
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Dec 20 2005, 06:22 PM
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#30
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,948 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
When playing with GMs who make a point about size, I notice almost all trolls are on the less than average side when being described. The few that do not describe them as small go all out and say they are the biggest, baddest, etc. ... All that said, trolls and their metavariants are the least played race in my experience in the last 10 years, probably because of the inherent problems.
In describing their dwarf, players seem to go for the tall side, too. And almost invariably take the human looking edge and make sure to explain that it does not make them resemble an immature human. Seems like about half the orks take human looking and only mention size when they are slightly smaller than average, or about the size of a large human. I have never seen an elf described much beyond average for their race, usually listing the average height and weight straight out of the book. I have seen exactly 1 with the human looking edge - happened to be a player that always took that edge, so they may have had their own reasons. [edit] PiXeL01, you are Proud member 3 to the 4th, aka 3^4, aka 81 of the Drop Bear Thread. [/edit] |
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Dec 21 2005, 12:19 AM
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#31
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Nice comeback. |
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Dec 21 2005, 01:49 AM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 247 Joined: 28-November 04 Member No.: 6,852 |
Personally, I've always felt that Trolls should get a concealability bonus for weapons and gear.
Thoughts? |
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Dec 21 2005, 03:47 AM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 178 Joined: 4-September 05 Member No.: 7,682 |
Shrapnel - proportionally, their gear is usually not much smaller, and if you measure it in the absolute (inches or centimeters) it is usually larger. IMO, the only circumstance where a trolls greater size would benefit concealability would involve cavity searches, like shoving a dwarf-modified LMG up his ass.
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Dec 21 2005, 04:00 PM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 197 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,542 |
First Edition Trolls from what I can remember of them didn't have horns. I could be wrong on this, but I think the differences between them and Orks were stat wise. I know that the Troll Sammie in the Street samurai Catalog had a horn. Trolls were bigger more Stupid versions of Orks with dermal deposits. Trolls on average were taller than any race with exception of elves I think. (You will have to forgive me but I don't have access to my 1st Edition SR book ATM.) But with that description they could still function in modern society for the most part. Of course as artists go everytime you see a Troll in any SR art he is F**king monstrous! I mean look at the Troll with no horns in the Mob War supplement if you have it. Cheese and Crackers that guy is almost too big to fit in outside let alone indoors. First lets tackle some Troll world problems: Buildings: People in this post have talked about buildings being grandfathered in and that makes sense, but as for Mega corps being nice and politically correct I would have to say no. Think about they're Megas. They have Extraterritoriality. They are their own countries. Worse then that they are countries that are focused on profit not the welfare of the citizens. That don't have to do anything. Would some more enlightened Megas do it, maybe. Ares and S-K maybe but not universal. Yametsu sure. But Renraku, Mitsuhama, and Shiawase hell no. Think of trying to do a run in those types of buildings. A firefight in a hallway and the Troll probably dies first. Why? Everyone shoots at him (Oh F**k a Troll!) and tight quarters (for him) means not much cover (Hmm. Maybe this desk could provide cover for my shins) Gear: Yeah Trolls get good and bad here. I'm sure there are companies that would manufacture for Trolls, why not there is a market for it. But Trolls would still have to pay top dollar for it. Hey more material costs means more money. Less competition means more money. Look at Big & Tall or Casual Male in today's world and see the price difference vesus normal retail chains. This doesn't take into account whether Trolls need to eat mroe than humans just keep up that bulk. If they do then that's more money. So let's say you want to play a big bad troll. What SR team would want you around? Think how many problems you would create rather then solve. I mean sure you're a bullet shield who can lift big things. So what. Playing more realistic gunfights there really isn't a use for that. Factor in the intelligence negatives and racial bias and you have a problem. To clarify I am not biased against using Trolls. I think their great! In a fantasy setting. I personally think that the Game Designers threw them in the setting to get it a more Fantasy/Earthdawn type feel. I guess you can play a Troll if you modify them to be close to human, but then what's the point? Just play an Ork. You get a more realistic role-playing experience. Well thanks for the comments. Good to know I'm not the only GM this have stumped. |
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Dec 21 2005, 05:05 PM
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#35
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Sometimes I think we may overestimate the problems inherent to being abnormally sized. There is a dwarfin my party, and at one poing he hopped into a strange vehicle and said "All right, I take off!" I immediately responded " How do you reach the petals?", thinking I had him. He responded "I have a datajack. I DNI it." And I though, Yep, that would about be it for dwarf modding a car.
I've never had players who didn't think through what it meant to be a troll. Heck, sometimes when my players play trolls, they inflict this kind of stuff on themselves. They'll volunteer when their character can't do something due to size. As for the whole "Messing with racial sizes" thing, I had a player who played an elf with a pituitary problem who was the size of a troll. He didn't receive any stat bonuses or penalties for it, he was just a big damn elf. So it works both ways, really. |
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Dec 21 2005, 05:58 PM
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#36
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
I have played a troll where I really *enjoyed* playing up the racial disadvantages. For one thing, I bought him Incomptence: Pistols, representing the fact that his hands were so huge, even for a troll, that there simply were no pistols that he could hold comfortably. Another source of constant amusement was the fact that after buying him everything else, the only car I could afford to mod for him was a subcompact. Watching him get in and out of that car looked awfully like a clown act.
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Dec 21 2005, 08:03 PM
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#37
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
While the troll horns were often smaller, some times didn't come in symmetrical pairs, and in general were a lot more subtle in first edition in the first edition core rulebook, they were there. The very first image of a troll in the book, p.7 has definite horns. Small, mismatched, but they are there. The troll on p.24 picking his nose with his middle finger (the picture that got FASA in trouble with a gaming store called Orc's Nest in England because it was dangerously close to being a copy of their store logo) has a single horn. The artwork accompanying the metaspecies description on p.29 also has a single horn. Oddly enough, the text makes no mention of horns. The troll with smart goggles and a gyromount harness on p.145 has a pair of short conical horns pointing straight up; on the next page is a troll sporting what looks like a rhino horn. The Troll Bouncer contact on p.173 has an impressive ram horn-style horn on one side, and a hornlike nub opposite of it. p.194 has another picture of the same character from p.7. The horns are more symmetrical in this one. Of course, by the time the first edition supplements started coming out, the art department had gotten the message to play up the troll horns. As was pointed out, the troll from SSG had decent hornage and one of the color plates from Seattle SB (the one depicting various Seattle security guard uniforms) also has a troll with some impressive horns. |
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Dec 22 2005, 05:08 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 18-November 05 Member No.: 7,978 |
The artwork with the smaller trolls is actually the incorrect artwork. Looking at the description, they are on average about 9 feet tall. Of course, they are drastically underweight for that, as anyone who has read the How Much Did You Say He Weighed supplemental article, a must read. 9 feet tall and 500lbs. Say what?
They helped alot in SR4 by making them smaller and heavier. Trolls are too big to be effective as anything but very specialized shadowrunners. They just aren't useful on most runs. On the other hand, in SR2, the troll was a sniper, and that seems like it could be a good position for them. Dwarf would be better, then elf, then human due to size, but they wouldn't have to worry about some of the major problems. |
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Dec 23 2005, 05:02 PM
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#39
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Right. Because, y'know, 2/3 of the Dwarves people mention on here ("draw this character" or "this is my new character" or "this funny thing happened in the game last night, with this character" or whatever) aren't those "exceptionally tall" Dwarves, that can pass as human. You're right. I'm making that up. In fact, it never ever happens. No one, anywhere, ever, given the choice, decides to play a really tall, skinny, Dwarf. It hasn't happened. At all. I'm hallucinating the whole thing. |
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Dec 23 2005, 06:51 PM
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#40
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
seem a little touchy today... |
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Dec 24 2005, 05:52 AM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 204 Joined: 27-October 05 From: Waterloo, ON Member No.: 7,900 |
There's certainly been a decisive divide between the heights on the Dwarves poll...
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Dec 24 2005, 06:10 AM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 197 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,542 |
I always play or enforce the human looking edge as much of a tightrope as I can.
First you will never get as much respect from your race as you would were you a "normal" looking member. Whether this is due to your own doing (surgery or whatever) or nature you still aren't fully (insert race here). In extreme cases even normal humans would get more respect than you because they aren't "trying to be who they're not." Members of your race would see you as a sellout, or as someone who hasn't had it as tough as them because you aren't hassled by security when you enter an upscale store in Downtown Seattle. Second no human who is a bigot would every respect you anyway. Sure you may casually pass for a human, but sooner or later they will find out you are not one of them. Bigots have let you move in the neighborhood but they sure won't accept you as one of their own. You're still a Trog, Halfer, or whatever. I think it would matter what metarace you are it would tough with the human looking edge. Sure it would help you at first but in the long run its drawbacks would out way its benefits. And as far as Dwarves having to contend with as much problems as Trolls it's not even close. Dwarves can pretty much fit into the world we live in now. There are disability services for little people. (Not trying to offend anyone here and I'm sorry if I did.) Sure being small is a challenge but it does come with benefits. Plus you can still use average height facilities with minimal adjustments unlike Trolls who need a whole other standard. |
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Dec 24 2005, 07:16 AM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,885 |
a elf with human looking, I doubt would ever be found out unless they had other flaws or thier elf brother showed up saying "hey where are the ears"
Same for dwarves. |
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Dec 24 2005, 11:47 AM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 494 Joined: 19-February 05 From: Amazonia Member No.: 7,102 |
Uhm, Trolls also are pretty rare beasts. You don't just see 90 of them when you walk down main street.
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Dec 24 2005, 01:20 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
But you would see them towering over the crowd here and there. There would not be many in a random Seattle crowd, but you could see them from a long way away.
Is it still around 1% in 4E? |
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Dec 24 2005, 06:00 PM
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#46
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Examples? I don't recall ever - aside from my recent post in the "Art Attack" thread (and my character happens to be tall for a dwarf but stocky, and not remotely able to pass for human - and has cybereyes, so no natural vision mods...) - reading anything else about tall (much less skinny, or able to pass as human) dwarves on this board. Though I'll freely admit I don't pay that much attention to "This is my character!" threads. So I could be wrong. |
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Dec 24 2005, 07:21 PM
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#47
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Sorry, but I really just don't care enough to do some search for obscure character references. Suffice it to say, "in my experience, taller than average Dwarves are more common than shorter than average Dwarves."
Sorry if it got your panties all in a wad that I made that observation. |
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Dec 24 2005, 07:31 PM
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#48
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Way to backpedal there... If you didn't care, you should have kept your trap shut in the first place. |
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Dec 24 2005, 07:49 PM
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#49
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I didn't say I don't care. I said I don't care enough. I'm trying to avoid/defuse the confrontation, rather than excaberate it, on account of it being Christmas fucking Eve, and my heart being full of goodwill towards my fellow man and all that happy horseshit, okay? Make your fucking Dwarf as tall as you want to. Peace, goodwill, blah blah blah. Have a nice day, enjoy your characters, do what you want to do.
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Dec 24 2005, 08:04 PM
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#50
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
This is clearly the work of the Horrors. Humanity is doomed.
~J |
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