 American Indians, etc., Something I never understood? |
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 Jan 3 2006, 02:44 AM
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#26
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Neophyte Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364  |
Sounds like you're using pre-2000 numbers. The latest was 2.5 million out of 281.4 million. (And that's just the people who checked only American Indian on the census form. If you count people who checked off multiple boxes and included American Indian as one of their checkoffs, the number goes up to 4.1 million) Still, you're only looking at 0.9% to 1.5% of the total population. Page 7 of this PDF has a map that breaks down the distribution, but I wish they'd broken down the 1.5% to 24.9% category into more than one color. [Edit] Like this, actually. My Census.gov-fu is gettting better. [/edit] |
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Jan 3 2006, 03:09 AM
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#27
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Fodder. You can always use more fodder. Rememer, only Howling Coyote and (maybe) his officers actually know the spell. Everyone else was just fodder to absorb the navel scale drain.
Thais, Aina's son by Ysrthgrathe. |
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Jan 3 2006, 03:41 AM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 332 Joined: 19-September 05 From: Nashville, Tn Member No.: 7,761 |
well... this is all RL
I'm 1/8 cherokee, plus a few other tribes. I was not rased tribal at all. I consider my ties with my blood line very important to me, and i try to stay active in the community. I do not have my BIA(Bureau of indian Affairs) card, though i could if i really wanted. and truth is that most american indians do not want there BIA card. most american indians do not trust the gov. and really don't want attention drawn to them. so you can times 5 any census number that are current. Second The gov today considers the american indians a threat. I have an FBI file due to hanging around with too many AIM(american indian movement) activitist. there are still some very angry indians out there. and just an FYI anyone with a BIA card is a prisoner of war. it is still on the books. |
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Jan 3 2006, 03:57 AM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 197 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,542 |
I would just like to state for the record that I love Red Dawn. There I said it.
I have pondered much on this same problem and have attempted a few things to explain it. First I changed some things from the Canon. The following is an outline of the changes I am making: Sovereign Tribal Council does not order all Anglos to leave North America, only that they adhere to the certain official treaties that were made with Native Americans (basically after the Trail of Tears). This is what the Treaty of Denver is based on. The Treaty of Denver was backed up by the UN, mostly China, France, Japan, and the Soviet Union and certain “left” elements in the US that agree with the NAN’s Green Policy. Oddly also that year China erupts into Civil War. President William Jarman becomes the first president in US history to be impeached. 2031, The Euro-Wars, NATO/Soviet Union war begins. The UCAS gets involved to defend Germany, due to hawks in the Southern portion of the government that remember Germany being the only vocal proponent for the United States during the Treaty of Denver. March, 2035 – Jan, 2036: Aztlan invades Texas. Due to Guerilla fighting and Aztlan confusing the CAS with the UCAS they lose. CAS gains concessions from Aztlan April, 2036 – March, 2037: CAS/Tir Tairngire war: California is kicked out of the UCAS. Tir Tairngire invades, but the CAS offers statehood, to which California accepts. The CAS declares war on Tir Tairngire and the shooting begins. CAS pushes the elves out of California. April, 2037 – April, 2039: After months of negotiation with the Japanese Imperial State on the removal of Japanese Divisions to leave San Francisco and Hawaii the CAS makes a surprise raid on Pearl Harbor and San Francisco. The Japanese Imperial State appeals to the UN for aid but finds that it has no friends. Several states secede from the UCAS and Germany joins the CAS in its war against the Japanese Imperial State. Soon there is fighting in Southeast Asia. The war ends with really no clear victory in terms of gain, but the CAS regains control of Southern California, and Japan agrees to buy Hawaii & San Francisco. San Fran Sprawl is much like Hong Kong during the 20th Century. August, 2052 – October 2052: CAS invades Cuba to “uphold its sovereignty” against Aztlan. Most of the government is killed in the fighting (This is due to the CAS but the blame is laid against Aztlan.) A provisional government is set up, and in December 2052 they formally ask to let into the CAS. The CAS is composed of 21 states: Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, Texas, Louisiana, Tennessee, Virginia, West Virginia, Maryland, Kentucky, Delaware, Arkansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, New Mexico, California, South Carolina, North Carolina, Puerto Rico & the Virgin Islands, and Cuba. I must admit being from Texas I am a little biased towards the CAS, but I think this is pretty accurate. I don't think the most powerful country from a military stand point in the world is just going to roll over for everyone. I have some more things I'm thinking about putting in the beginning (A World War, 9/11, Communism not falling until much later, which I think is in SR anyway. Still working out the details.) Now I understand the reasoning behind this from a writer's standpoint. In order for the Corps to be all powerful there really can't be anymore government super powers. There have been several suggestions so far in this post that give some credence to why this all came about but I think one major point is worth looking into. From a historians standpoint the past has already happened thus you really can only argue, in most cases, why something occurred not if it occurred. We know the Confederates charged the center of the Union line at Gettysburg on the last day of the battle. That fact cannot be argued. The questions as to why this happened and what caused it can be. Look at the NAN in that light. What truly caused the NAN to come about? VITAS? The Awakening? Mega Corp corruption of politicians? Lofwyr? A Council of Great Dragons Conspiracy? The Great Ghost Dance? A combination of all the above? It doesn't matter. In fact historians in the SR universe would still get plenty of work arguing these facts even up until 2070 and beyond. As to the population problems, well that is easy to solve. All you have to do is re-define Native American. Look NAN is not going to kick out all the Anglos. Even in the best case scenario this wouldn't happen, but why would you want to? Most people are not going to rise up to defend the Red, White & Blue. People are too used to air conditioning, fast food, and easy living to go live in the mountains with Patrick Swayze and form the Wolverines to die over a piece of cloth. All the NAN has to do is guarantee the same rights, lower taxes, and stay out of people's lives and they can come into power. People will say I’m an NAN instead of USA citizen if they can eat McDonald’s and watch Survivor. <Something about Bread and Circuses. :lick: ) All you do is make some legalize crap about how anyone living on NAN land when the Treaty of Denver comes into effect is grandfathered in as a Native American. Thus you would have Chinese Lakota and African American Ute. The term Native American means not only ethnic but national citizenship. Anyway that’s my 0.02 :nuyen: |
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Jan 3 2006, 03:57 AM
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#30
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
Does anyone here think that therer really was a magical age,and elves were most important historic figures ever?
Okay Now if that past is lies..Why couldn't the natives had been left with say 6,000,00 in the resavations camp in shadowrun? |
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Jan 3 2006, 04:12 AM
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#31
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
So Andrew Johnson doesn't exist in your games? |
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Jan 3 2006, 04:18 AM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 197 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,542 |
Not familiar with him off the top of my head. OH wait! My bad, you mean Lincoln's V.P. Yeah he does. I mean impeached as removed from the office of President.
LOL! Thought you were talking about character from SR Canon. :wobble: |
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Jan 3 2006, 04:19 AM
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#33
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Target Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 2-January 06 From: CalFree Member No.: 8,119 |
So... you are saying that they take over most of the united states with 2/3 the population of LA... seeing that every single indian is capable of combat.. I highly doubt it. I also highly doubt that your avrage person will just keel over and say.. "allrighty injuns have magic so we give up" We underestimate the racist superiority complex of americans and causasians in the first place. We dont even like a jewish "WHITE" president let alone bow to some indians we nearly whiped out 300 years ago. |
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Jan 3 2006, 04:23 AM
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#34
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Andrew Johnson was the seventeenth Persident of the United States. He served from 1865 to 1869 and he was impeached in |
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Jan 3 2006, 04:27 AM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 197 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,542 |
Technically he wasn't impeached. Elven articles of impeachment were brought against him by the House but the Senate did not pass the impeachment, it was defeated by one vote. |
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Jan 3 2006, 04:30 AM
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#36
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
He was impeached, he wasn't convicted. Impeachment is the process of the House of Represenatives bringing charges against an officer. The trial in the Senate occurs after someone has been impeached. |
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Jan 3 2006, 04:34 AM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 197 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,542 |
My mistake. I was using the term impeached incorrectly. It should read.
President Jarmen is the first President in US History convicted in an impeachment trial or something to that effect. |
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Jan 3 2006, 04:40 AM
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#38
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
First off, I never in this thread said that SR's offical timeline is plausable. In fact, all I've done is point out a few addional factors that have bearing on this issue, point out how I handle the situation in my own version of the timeline, and point out what the most current census numbers were. None of those posts support the view that 2/3rds the size of L.A. would be able to take over most of the US, so I don't know where you'd get the idea that I'm saying that. Secondly, I wouldn't call the NAN territories "most" of the US. |
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Jan 3 2006, 04:40 AM
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#39
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Well, of course no white man is going to roll over and let the Injuns take his land just like every Japanese citizen will fight to the death if we attempt a land invasion. Edit: It is a common mistake, Lazarus. You just had the misfortune of posting on a board withsomeone who tutored Political Science for two semesters. |
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Jan 3 2006, 05:39 AM
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#40
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Target Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 2-January 06 From: CalFree Member No.: 8,119 |
Im quite sorry for sounding like jerk, not my intention at all. |
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Jan 3 2006, 05:46 AM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 197 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,542 |
To Hyzmarca:
Yeah, but I should know that stuff being a History Major and all. Been studying too much Japanese History I guess, hehe. Nah, I just hate it when I use a term improperly. Shit I know who Andrew Johnson is. I live in East Tennessee how could I not. Actually back on this thread though, I once thought about getting rid of the NAN altogether but I think if you drop the balkinization aspect of the SR world it sort of loses it's flavor. Sure I got rid of the CFS being an independent nation because Califonia is rated the 7th largest economy in the world and 4th in the U.S. and what nation, besides the UCAS, would willingly give that up? Plus there has to be one nation that sort of sees itself as the "up-holder of true American values", and to me that's the CAS. The UCAS would be too industrial, too corporate, and too Canadian to be the "Red-Blooded American" type of nation. <At least IMHO> |
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Jan 3 2006, 06:15 AM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 160 Joined: 16-August 03 Member No.: 5,501 |
to start, i didn't really mean to make such a long post, but the details are important to the discusion.
This doesn't sound very different from conditions in some Indian reserves in Canada... Another thing that many people should realise is that not everyone who has "Indian*" blood knows they do. Way back in colonial times being "Indian" wasen't all that bad, you still for the most part had your own way of life, but some things that were brought to north america had a serious impact (alchahol, diseaes, cultural imperialism and religion). In post colonial times, the goverment of canada (I can not and will not speak for what the American and Mexican goverments did to thier indigenous populations, because i am not familiar with thier history.) made all** religueous gatherings illegal, (arresting the people involved and consficating the religios items, which were often either destroyed or sent to europe to be sold as cuiositys from the new world. By all** I mean religeos gatherings for "Indian" religons not indians attending goverment approved religeous cerimones.) Durring this time, "Indians" became a 3rd class, often having less legal rights than Japanese, Chinese and African-american citizens. It should be noted here that being a half blooded indian was not ANY better than being full blood. (The people that have part "Indian" and part European blood are called Metis. Tecnicaly. It is much more of an eastern term, you dont generaly hear that term on the west coast of Canada.) It was durring this time that the children of the Indians were "rounded up" (as Alexandru put it, great turn of phrase) and sent to reform schools. Yes these are the reform schools you might have heard about (Reform OR ELSE). This is where a large part of the Indian culture language and sociaty was lost. The last reform school closed its doors in 1988, two years after Chernobyl. this time is around 1900 to 1950, it was not a good idea to be an Indian, so, many people that were not noticibly Indian, wern't Indian. And at this point, how do you prove that someone is an Indian? they dont have an Indian name, they don't live in a teepee or an igloo, they speak your language and they speak it as well as you do, and they do the same things you do. And remember, they woulnt admit it because they might lose thier job, get beaten up, or killed. Now, take thier children, they arn't any different. If thier family does not tell them that they have native blood, HOW THE HELL are they suposed to know? it is not stamped on thier forehead. The truth is: that if you saw a family of "North American Indians" at KFC you probably would not recognise them. Unless they had the predomantly Indian phenotype. I am an Indian (but I prefer the name Metis). I am a Canadian. (but my name is not Joe, and I don't know Bob or megan from Canada but im sure they are realy nice people. I am from Ireland. I am from Manitoba. I am from Quebec. I have been there (in Quebec) for 11 generations. I have been here (in North America) for a million years (give or take a few). the point is I am all of these things, but you can't tell by just looking at me, you have to ask. And now to respond to Two things that were said that realy bug me: (and I'm sorry Alexandru, i wasn't trying to pick on you, but you seemed to say the things that buged me the most.)
I was talking with another "Indian" on the west coast of canada (Vancover Island specificaly, its the big one), and he asked what racial group i was from, I told him to guess. He didn't get it right. He didn't say that i was an "Indian" because i dont look like one... from around here. I honestly don't think that you would be able to tell if they (the family of American Indians at KFC) wern't wearing "I'm an Indian" name tags. the other thing is, i don't like KFC food, so hell will freeze over before you will see me sitting in KFC.
by Alexandru What do you mean by Native American cities? Or do you mean historicaly accurate cities with Native Americans still living in the old ways? Or do you mean cities that are populated solely by Native Americans? Or... did you mean cities that were built by Indians, lived in by Indians for thosands of year, and in the last 200 or so shared with explorers and settlers (who much of the time did not turn out to be very nice people Ex. polititions, misionarys and the force of law.)? when the Europeans first came to North America they first tried to live on islands. This turned out to be a Realy, Realy stupid Idea™, mainly because the islands were at that time, barily habitable maybe. So the first winter came around, and almost everybody froze to death, or got scurvy, or both. After that, they got a little bit smarter. They went to live near the Indians lived, because the Indians had found the best spot for a Town or a City, and they were living there! I mean realy think about it, places with the prefix of Fort didnt get built in the middle of nowhere because there was lots of space, they got built on trade routes and in citys or towns (not that we would recognise them today, if we could look back in time). When the Explorers "discovered" a new town, (or were told, "hey there is another town 3 days of cannoeing down this river") they got to write the name on a map. This has lead to many silly names for places, an example: Point No Point. And another thing, The silly idea that White people have MORE right to land that they stole from the Indians BUGS me. A LOT. not that i am advocating making 3 or 4 volcanoes erupt at the same time, taking up arms and driving the white and other non indian foke into the sea. The fact is that when the Europeans came to North america, property was not owned. a tribe had teritory, but it did not have land as we know it today. The conflict between the europeans going "hey, this land doesnt belong to any one, its free, FREE LAND FOR EVERYONE.This limited time offer exculdes the people that actualy live here, the french, japanese and chinese and anyone else that we dont like." and the native view point is still being resolved today. *Indian, as if they were all the same people, of the similar genetic makeup and spoke the same language. |
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Jan 3 2006, 10:19 AM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,784 |
Xizor, I don't think Alexandru meant there were no "Native American Cities" anywhere anytime, IMHO he was commenting on the comparative populations Today. As has been pointed out, the realative populations don't make 1/3 of the USA being seized by the SIAM at all reasonable.
As for Ainas Horror kid being responsible, where is that from, and what did he hope to achieve? Was the spike point intentional, Perhaps? |
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Jan 3 2006, 11:35 AM
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#44
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Well, that's just human nature for you. The fact remains that, with possession being nine-tenths of the law, and precedent and history on their side, the whites do have a stronger claim to all this land they "stole" (read: took) from the Indians. Right up until someone tries to, and succeeds at, taking it back. That's how humans roll. The strong take from the weak. If you can't hold it, it's not yours. Shit like that's still going on all over the world today, either in that same primitive and physical form (just about any third world country, anywhere), or in a more polished and socially acceptable way (Wal Mart "killing" little businesses, corporate buyouts, whatever). |
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Jan 3 2006, 12:08 PM
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#45
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Worlds Without End. [ Spoiler ]
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Jan 3 2006, 01:10 PM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 751 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Hamilton.LTG.on.ca Member No.: 2,853 |
Words i don't want to see are Injun, it's like dropping the N-Bomb on my black brothers.
Being Native my self, i find it highly insulting. I may bring some flaming every now and then but i will never be racist on this forum. |
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Jan 3 2006, 01:15 PM
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#47
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
I appologize if it offends. I use the term to paint insulting caricatures of racists. |
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Jan 3 2006, 01:18 PM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 751 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Hamilton.LTG.on.ca Member No.: 2,853 |
No prob bro, their is no colour, just the human race.
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Jan 3 2006, 01:30 PM
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#49
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I think you mean "there should be no color," or "as far as I'm concerned there's no color," or similar. Racism's a sad and ugly truth, but a truth all the same. |
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Jan 3 2006, 01:37 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 751 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Hamilton.LTG.on.ca Member No.: 2,853 |
oh great another gramar/spelling bee cop, sorry i'll use ther proper there next time.
and color is spelt colour, but in Canada we have a different way of spelling that cause the french culture in Canada. Yes and it is an ugly truth, my next door neighbor grew up down in those southern states there, and just because his skin is white he thinks he's pure, i could'nt help but laugh at him and walk away. He even said he was taught this, it blew my mind that peoples elders teach this BS. |
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