Ok I <3 shadowrun, but one element of it that I just never got was all the American Indian nations etc. Where do they come from.

SR4 tends to be a bit less on it than sr2-3 but I still dont get it from a real life perspective. I live in the U.S., been to Canada, spent alot of time in California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Nevada. I think in 20 years of life I have known TWO American Indians, both of mixed white decent etc. Im supposed to believe that the 20 of em that run casinos are going to take over huge chunks of North America? Not likley. The cities of the midwest each have about 1 million people in them, they are going to be taken over by such a small minority. Even with magic I find that unprobable. If all the white, black, asian americans were to leave the midwest areas to American Indians, you would have entirely empty cities. I just dont get it.

Now I understand Azatlan. Mexico, Central America and South America have a large split along ethnic lines, between Spanish-mix decendants and indians. You have real world revolutions in Bolivia, Equador, Mexico(on the yucatan) between the different racial groups. So theoretically in Mexico the indian decendants who are predominantly poor and living in the non developed reagions would use magic to kick out the Spanish decendants etc. but I just dont see it in the United States.

To quote Chris Rock "When was the last time you saw a family of American Indians sitting at KFC?"

There are still many non-natives living in the NAN, they are just second class citizens. Also, I believe that there were some huge back-to-nature reclamation programs.

Here is the thing, magic awakening is random, 1% of the population. That means that overall there are alot more Caucasian awakened mages than native americans.

Here is our 2005 ethnicity ratios.

white 81.7%, black 12.9%, Asian 4.2%, Amerindian and Alaska native 1%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.2% (2003 est.)
note: a separate listing for Hispanic is not included because the US Census Bureau considers Hispanic to mean a person of Latin American descent (including persons of Cuban, Mexican, or Puerto Rican origin) living in the US who may be of any race or ethnic group (white, black, Asian, etc.)


So what Shadowrun is saying is that 1% of the population, that one precent is also spread over the whole NORTH AMERICAN CONTINENT. Is going to take over a vast majority of North America?

Even if that 1% has superior magical ratios and powers, after a initial revolution its just unrealisty. The two native Americans that hang out around the Pachenga Casino are going to control and occupy all of nevada... yeah right.

I would believe if they wrote all of the south west being absorbed and controlled by Mexico, seeing that california has a 51% majority of Hispanics in the population. But a Native American takeover is less realistic than genetic mutation into trolls, dwarves, and evles.

Bah. I always hated the whole NAN thing. I want my precious United States back.

I don't think it was the direct application of magic as used by the tribes that forced the "anglos" out, but more the fear and lack of understanding the U.S. and it's people had about what was going on. After the injuns blew those 3 or 4 volcanos simultaniously there was fear that they could perform such acts at will.

Stil one of my favorite parts of the whole NAN plot was the SR videogame for genesis, and all it's native american stereotypes. "Keep your nose, and these lands clean." LOL.

Also remember that the Native American population wasn't actually spread out or disunified in the short time between Lone Eagle and the formation of the NAN. They were quite well unified in the Death Camps that the United States authorities put them in. Being tossed into a death camp with someone usually creates a newfound sense of unity and certainly creates a geographic closeness. After the GGD they just demanded such a huge bit of land out of revenge and the US capitulated due to cusp-of-the-awakening fear of magic and spirits and crap.

For what it's worth, here are some factors to consider:

Some Federally Recognized Tribes allow Tribal membership with as little as 1/16th blood quantum. That's one full-blooded Great-Great Grandparent to 15 non-indian great great grandparents. While many Tribes are trying to get away from blood quantum as a litmus test for determining Indian status, it would have been handy for keeping the newly made NAN nations from becoming entirely de-poplulated.

Related to that, there's the phenomenon of the pinkskins: Former US Citizens who while having no documented AmerInd ancestry, sympathized with the Indian cause, and agreed to commit themselves to the Indian way of life, and were allowed to remain in the new NAN lands.

Another factor to consider is the impact of VITAS.

However, even with all the above, it's still a stretch to imagine the events happening exactly as they've been presented in the SR histories.

It makes even less sense when you consider that the 1% is also made up of people who are nominally Native American, and might be interested in their roots, but are very much a part of mainstream society, and aren't likely to want to trade their cable TV for a sweat lodge, as well as shmucks who lie about their ethnicity in order to get a cut of casino money, or a cushy position at some university heading the Ethnic Studies department.

I always just sort of pretend the whole NAN issue doesn't exist when I play - which means it ceases to exist when I GM.

Yeah im just finding myself unable to explain the huge imaginary population explosion I have to explain to my players.

D'ye mean Val Kilmer, FrostyNSO?

Anyway, the AmerInds were fairly lenient as to ancestral standards. I'm not saying every Latino with some meztiso in them caught a flight to Aztlan, but they'd probably have been welcome in Pueblo.

There were exceptions, too. The Mormons, for one, and all the elves that joined the Sinsearach tribe.

Latinos (which, BTW, is just slightly less retarded a term than Hispanic) are considered NAN-eligible because Mexico (so, gee, you'd think it'd be limited to Mexicans) was a member of NAN when the Treaty of Denver was signed according to Shadows of North America.

Of course, if that was true the 5:1 numerical superiority of Mexican-Americans to Indians in what is now PCC would suggest that control the PCC would lie with them and not a Hopi/Zuni coalition, but you know retconning can only fix so much by breaking something else.

In my games, much of the NAN population is bolstered by Libertarians who were fairly pissed at big government and the corporate menace tag teaming individual human rights in the name of increased security, and were tired of the whole Red State vs. Blue State mentality, and wanted to give up on it all.

It's a symbiotic relationship between the AmerInds and the Libertarians, with the Libertarians acting as silent partners in the whole affair, letting the AmerInds get all the press with the trade off being that they also get stuck with setting up the government infrastructure.

Of course, card-carrying Libertarians aren't that much more common than AmerInds, but that's something that's changed in my own version of the SR timeline, as a result of public backlash to everything from the Patriot Act, to the Sony Rootkit, to SR Timeline staples such as Seretech and Shiwase and the Relocation and Re-education act.

The VITAS epidemics did alot to change those numbers as well. Since all (or most) Indians were locked up in the death camps, their numbers werent dramaticly decreased. Way to screw up the population pyramids

It doesn't matter who much that nominally Native American guy likes his cable TV, it won't stop the jackbooted stormtroopers from picking him up and putting him in a shower with no water, if you catch my drift. And if the government didn't put him in a concentration camp that he would just be lynched by his neighbors when they found out about his heritage. His only slim chance of survival is to join other Native Americans in violent resistance. The lying schmuck is in the same position. After his fair-weather claims of being a Native American no one will listen to his renunciation during the 'all American Indians must die' phase of UCAS history.

The thing the books don't tell you is the death camps were paid based on the number of Indians tortured and killed, so not only were they death camps, the were also breeding camps (more Indians = more revenue!) Plus, the great ghost dance caused a sudden boost in Indian fertility, plus Indian magical spells caused more Indians to start growing on trees. Because we all know Indians are in touch with nature, buffalo, racoons and other wildlife were given full citizenship and right to vote. With this sudden, but predictable population boom, the Indians easily rolled over the industrialized, entrenched and well armed American states, reclaiming about a half of the US. It's all right there in the book.

(Yes, I am teasing. I agree, it makes no sense. Cloning tanks and tax breaks are all I can say to explain it.)

Still makes no sense.

For example the pre ww2 jewish poopulation is estimated at 16-17 million worlwide. The Holocaust is estimated to cost 6million lives allover western and easter europe during NAZI occupation.


I can safley say there are not 6million native americans(northern american only, not includeing mexican indians) in 2006.

My problem with the whole issue is... "They got rounded up" Who got rounded up?? WHERE THE FUCK ARE THESE INDIANS. There are no Native American cities, I have travled the southwest a fair bit, and I still havent seen many, with the exception of amuzement parks like Knotts Berry Farm, but they spoke spanish, so were most likley not true "Native North Americans".

It is more believable that the "commies" invaded north america like in that shittastic movie "Red Dawn"

Rounding them up isn't that difficult. You just have to sort through census, social security, tax, police, and ext. records and send people to arrest anyone how ever checked the Native American box on any form ever. There are also reservations and other such things. It wouldn't be difficult to do, especially with the majority of the US's considerable resources dedicated to the task.

According to US census records there are around 2 million native americans in the United States out of about 248.7 million people.

Guys; the NAN make no sense. There is no undoing this, but is it really that much more taxing to the "suspension of disbelief" than, say, Magic? Or Dragons? Ultimately, the setting demands it. A balkanized dystopia can't really be reconciled with a world superpower who can set global agenda, esp. if that power has a history of supporting the status quo.

And the whole Indian Internment camps has been presented really strangely too. Even if you accept that such a thing is even remotely possible, the flavor text strongly implies that these were thinly veiled death camps, yet it also relies on the indian internment to explain why the tiny amerind population wasn't devestated, compared to the depopulation of the non-native peoples, by exposure to VITAS. Shouldn't it be one (bloodsoaked extermination) or the other (Isolation with better than average survival)? Or, like everything else in SR, is it just biased from whoever is reporting it?

Also, after reading HB, I seem to remember Harl being as confused as to who taught Daniel Howling Coyote the GGD as why. Has this been explored in Canon?

The camps weren't extermination centers. The government and the corps simply locked the Indians, and left them to rot. Shitty food, tainted water, no heating... not good for their health, but nowhere near as bad as the VITAS devastation everyone else suffered. Extermination wasn't ordered until Garrety was murdered and William Jarman rose to power, but it wasn't implemented thanks to the Great Ghost Dance.

(BTW: I've always been impressed by how little attention Jarman gets from most fans... the man was probably one of the most influential politicians in SR history, though not in a good way).

Who wants to dwell on some evil incarnation of ourselves? Plus, from within canon, He is the guy who "lost" the USA. Not exactly things that will get you a big fan club.

well... this is all RL
I'm 1/8 cherokee, plus a few other tribes. I was not rased tribal at all. I consider my ties with my blood line very important to me, and i try to stay active in the community.

I do not have my BIA(Bureau of indian Affairs) card, though i could if i really wanted. and truth is that most american indians do not want there BIA card. most american indians do not trust the gov. and really don't want attention drawn to them. so you can times 5 any census number that are current.

Second
The gov today considers the american indians a threat. I have an FBI file due to hanging around with too many AIM(american indian movement) activitist. there are still some very angry indians out there.
and just an FYI anyone with a BIA card is a prisoner of war. it is still on the books.

I would just like to state for the record that I love Red Dawn. There I said it.

I have pondered much on this same problem and have attempted a few things to explain it. First I changed some things from the Canon. The following is an outline of the changes I am making:

Sovereign Tribal Council does not order all Anglos to leave North America, only that they adhere to the certain official treaties that were made with Native Americans (basically after the Trail of Tears). This is what the Treaty of Denver is based on.

The Treaty of Denver was backed up by the UN, mostly China, France, Japan, and the Soviet Union and certain “left” elements in the US that agree with the NAN’s Green Policy. Oddly also that year China erupts into Civil War. President William Jarman becomes the first president in US history to be impeached.

2031, The Euro-Wars, NATO/Soviet Union war begins. The UCAS gets involved to defend Germany, due to hawks in the Southern portion of the government that remember Germany being the only vocal proponent for the United States during the Treaty of Denver.

March, 2035 – Jan, 2036: Aztlan invades Texas. Due to Guerilla fighting and Aztlan confusing the CAS with the UCAS they lose. CAS gains concessions from Aztlan

April, 2036 – March, 2037: CAS/Tir Tairngire war: California is kicked out of the UCAS. Tir Tairngire invades, but the CAS offers statehood, to which California accepts. The CAS declares war on Tir Tairngire and the shooting begins. CAS pushes the elves out of California.

April, 2037 – April, 2039: After months of negotiation with the Japanese Imperial State on the removal of Japanese Divisions to leave San Francisco and Hawaii the CAS makes a surprise raid on Pearl Harbor and San Francisco. The Japanese Imperial State appeals to the UN for aid but finds that it has no friends. Several states secede from the UCAS and Germany joins the CAS in its war against the Japanese Imperial State. Soon there is fighting in Southeast Asia. The war ends with really no clear victory in terms of gain, but the CAS regains control of Southern California, and Japan agrees to buy Hawaii & San Francisco. San Fran Sprawl is much like Hong Kong during the 20th Century.

August, 2052 – October 2052: CAS invades Cuba to “uphold its sovereignty” against Aztlan. Most of the government is killed in the fighting (This is due to the CAS but the blame is laid against Aztlan.) A provisional government is set up, and in December 2052 they formally ask to let into the CAS.

The CAS is composed of 21 states: Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, Texas, Louisiana, Tennessee, Virginia, West Virginia, Maryland, Kentucky, Delaware, Arkansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, New Mexico, California, South Carolina, North Carolina, Puerto Rico & the Virgin Islands, and Cuba.

I must admit being from Texas I am a little biased towards the CAS, but I think this is pretty accurate. I don't think the most powerful country from a military stand point in the world is just going to roll over for everyone. I have some more things I'm thinking about putting in the beginning (A World War, 9/11, Communism not falling until much later, which I think is in SR anyway. Still working out the details.)

Now I understand the reasoning behind this from a writer's standpoint. In order for the Corps to be all powerful there really can't be anymore government super powers. There have been several suggestions so far in this post that give some credence to why this all came about but I think one major point is worth looking into.

From a historians standpoint the past has already happened thus you really can only argue, in most cases, why something occurred not if it occurred. We know the Confederates charged the center of the Union line at Gettysburg on the last day of the battle. That fact cannot be argued. The questions as to why this happened and what caused it can be. Look at the NAN in that light.

What truly caused the NAN to come about? VITAS? The Awakening? Mega Corp corruption of politicians? Lofwyr? A Council of Great Dragons Conspiracy? The Great Ghost Dance? A combination of all the above? It doesn't matter. In fact historians in the SR universe would still get plenty of work arguing these facts even up until 2070 and beyond.

As to the population problems, well that is easy to solve. All you have to do is re-define Native American. Look NAN is not going to kick out all the Anglos. Even in the best case scenario this wouldn't happen, but why would you want to? Most people are not going to rise up to defend the Red, White & Blue. People are too used to air conditioning, fast food, and easy living to go live in the mountains with Patrick Swayze and form the Wolverines to die over a piece of cloth. All the NAN has to do is guarantee the same rights, lower taxes, and stay out of people's lives and they can come into power. People will say I’m an NAN instead of USA citizen if they can eat McDonald’s and watch Survivor. <Something about Bread and Circuses. ) All you do is make some legalize crap about how anyone living on NAN land when the Treaty of Denver comes into effect is grandfathered in as a Native American. Thus you would have Chinese Lakota and African American Ute. The term Native American means not only ethnic but national citizenship.

Anyway that’s my 0.02

Does anyone here think that therer really was a magical age,and elves were most important historic figures ever?

Okay Now if that past is lies..Why couldn't the natives had been left with say 6,000,00 in the resavations camp in shadowrun?

Not familiar with him off the top of my head. OH wait! My bad, you mean Lincoln's V.P. Yeah he does. I mean impeached as removed from the office of President.

LOL! Thought you were talking about character from SR Canon.

My mistake. I was using the term impeached incorrectly. It should read.

President Jarmen is the first President in US History convicted in an impeachment trial or something to that effect.

To Hyzmarca:

Yeah, but I should know that stuff being a History Major and all. Been studying too much Japanese History I guess, hehe. Nah, I just hate it when I use a term improperly. Shit I know who Andrew Johnson is. I live in East Tennessee how could I not.

Actually back on this thread though, I once thought about getting rid of the NAN altogether but I think if you drop the balkinization aspect of the SR world it sort of loses it's flavor.

Sure I got rid of the CFS being an independent nation because Califonia is rated the 7th largest economy in the world and 4th in the U.S. and what nation, besides the UCAS, would willingly give that up?

Plus there has to be one nation that sort of sees itself as the "up-holder of true American values", and to me that's the CAS. The UCAS would be too industrial, too corporate, and too Canadian to be the "Red-Blooded American" type of nation. <At least IMHO>

to start, i didn't really mean to make such a long post, but the details are important to the discusion.

Xizor, I don't think Alexandru meant there were no "Native American Cities" anywhere anytime, IMHO he was commenting on the comparative populations Today. As has been pointed out, the realative populations don't make 1/3 of the USA being seized by the SIAM at all reasonable.

As for Ainas Horror kid being responsible, where is that from, and what did he hope to achieve? Was the spike point intentional, Perhaps?

Words i don't want to see are Injun, it's like dropping the N-Bomb on my black brothers.

Being Native my self, i find it highly insulting.


I may bring some flaming every now and then but i will never be racist on this forum.

No prob bro, their is no colour, just the human race.

oh great another gramar/spelling bee cop, sorry i'll use ther proper there next time.

and color is spelt colour, but in Canada we have a different way of spelling that cause the french culture in Canada.


Yes and it is an ugly truth, my next door neighbor grew up down in those southern states there, and just because his skin is white he thinks he's pure, i could'nt help but laugh at him and walk away.

He even said he was taught this, it blew my mind that peoples elders teach this BS.