American Indians, etc., Something I never understood? Options

[Critias]

If you want me to play grammar cop, I can play grammar cop. There's all sorts of shit wrong with your post, I wasn't trying to point out a few missed words because it was an incomplete sentence, but rather because you were presenting "there is no color, just the human race" as a factual statement, which it is not, rather than as a naive or optimistic world-view outlook.

I wasn't playing grammar cop, or spelling nazi, or typo jack-booted-thug. I was just correcting an unrealistically optimistic statement.

[mmu1]

[nezumi]

Lazarus - So technically the capital of the UCAS, Washington DC, is now in enemy territory?

In my opinion, I'd have expected that to settle more or less like it did in the civil war. Ask everyone who wants to go confederate to go one place to vote, then arrest them. I expect that, should there be a reasonably civil break up like what happened between the UCAS and CAS (not a big shoot out like our last one), the UCAS would make darn sure MD and NoVA would stay part of the Union and the CAS, who is seeking a relatively peaceful break up, would probably concede.

[Sharaloth]

I've always been annoyed at the NAN in SR too. I can rationalize out the takeover of half the US, though barely, by assuming that they just asserted govornence over the territory ceded to them, and not ALL of the NAN states demanded the white-folk get out (aka: economic suicide). Mexico becoming Aztlan is not so much a native thing as it was a drug-lord corporate marketing scheme, which meant that they decided not to distinguish between native-descended and immigrant population, keeping their workforce intact and solidified. What really bugs me is that all of North America was apparantly hit by this wave of Native takeover, with only major industrialized centers surviving in their original govornments, and even then with some concessions.

That's just not right. A lot of people are snarked off because of the carve-up of the US, but I'm more ticked at what happened to Canada. There is no way in hell that Canada would get reduced to Ontario and the Maritimes because of Native American takeover. This is especially true if Canada and the US merge. The US offers nothing to Canadians but massive debt, loss of social programs and practically no voice in govornment. Canada has nothing to offer the US but a bunch of whining liberals who miss their universal health care and international relevance. The only thing Canada would have to offer the US is natural resources, which the NAN took the majority of. I would say the US has military power to offer Canada, but they lost to a bunch of natives who blew up a few volcanoes, and then had the warmer half of their union seceed.

Now, I've not come up with an alternate timeline that 'fixes' these issues, but that's because I like playing with the fucked-up canon story. It says to me more than any number of Earthdawn references that the SR universe was never our own. In the SR universe, the natives weren't so heavily devastated by disease and colonialism, only just enough to put them under the European's thumb for a few hundred years while they struggled for integration, recognition and rebuilding their numbers. When the GGD happened, the Native Americans in the SR universe had to number a great deal more than 1% of the population, perhaps as much as 10% or 20% at most, which survived VITAS because they were isolated from the rest of the world's population and maybe because some half-horror bastard son of an IE helped them survive it. Thus they have the numbers to take and hold the territory they are ceded at the Treaty of Denver. It also tells me that Western Canada is not the resource-rich oil mine it is in our world, and that instead Ontario and the maritimes (and possibly Quebec) were the resource-rich areas of Canada (mostly, the West would still have it's resources by the tonne, but it wouldn't be the massive supply we know it to be). It tells me that the Canadian portions of the UCAS were given a whole bunch of Congressional and Senate seats to keep them quiet, and that the states of Ontario, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island might even retain a form of universal health care (That is, a contract between a major medical corporation and the Canadian provinces for exclusive rights to the medical needs of Canadian citizens, on the condition they treat everyone who comes in and in return for some sweet, sweet tax-money and other perks. But this is really unlikely). This makes sense, the southern states were cheesed off because now there were even MORE northern east-coast liberals who were getting a disproportionately large number of seats in the two houses, and so decided to get out while the getting was good. California was kicked because, really the UCAS was too busy with trying to rearrange their entire govornmental structure to accomodate both the gain of the Canadian states and the loss of the southern ones that they seriously didn't care what California had to say. On top of which California's economy was failing due to overpopulation and lack of water and energy resources (problems it's running into now in RL, though as far as I know its economy isn't failing yet).

At least, that's how I see it.

[Lazarus]

[stevebugge]

Ok just to point out a Geographical problem here. The Midwest usually refers to the states of: Ohio, Michigan, Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Kentucky (which is also sometimes considered a Southern State). AND IOWA!

The NAN starts in the Plains States: Nebraska, the Dakotas, Kansas, and Oklahoma. And continues accross the Western States: Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Utah, & Nevada. The Southwest Texas, New Mexico, & Arizona. And then gets kind of Chewed up along the PAcific Coast: California, Oregon, and Washington.

[Lazarus]

LOL, shit my bad. I should have said The states that comprise the NAN since they are both the Plain, Western, and Pacfic Coast.

[stevebugge]

It was confusing me a bit, since under some of these descriptions Chicago would have been the NAN's problem.

The states comprising the NAN are fairly sparsely populated for the most part, and while they probably only won them by using Ritual Magic Scare Tactics (anyone heard of the Soviet Missile Gap Crisis?) and some serious saber rattling, their ability to hold them is probably dependant on these factors.

Terrain, the area is very big and fairly mountainous throughout and very sparsely populated.

Low Population Density, there are a few big cities between the Rockies and the Pacific Coast (Denver is a separate entity, Las Vegas, Salt Lake, and Phoenix) but outside that there are a handful of smaller cities. Like most countries with low population Immigration rules probably allow for the entry of Non-Amerindians by blood, who may or may not have full political rights in order to support the economy(the Cascade Orc quite literaly sell membership to the tribe for example).

The UCAS has lots of other problems, so does the CAS.

Obviously some of the NAN Members have been more successful than others, some haven't even remained a part. Tsimshian for example is a near total failure, while the PCC was successful enough to absorb the Ute Nation on the other end of the spectrum.

[The Stainless St...]

[stevebugge]

Sorry, I'll fix it. I think it's a subconscious vendetta agains Iowa for screwing up my NCAA bracket so may years.

[PBTHHHHT]

[stevebugge]

[PBTHHHHT]

[nezumi]

Lazarus - While your rant on our genetic similarities is inspiring, Critias' original complaint is still valid.

I am not the same color as a black person, nor as an Oriental person, nor a Native American, nor, for that matter, my wife or even my child. This has nothing to do with genetics. It has to do with the fact that, under white light, my skin reflects different specific wavelengths than what the skin of other people reflects. Ergo there is color. Unless you are visually impaired, I would be happy to provide evidence of this.

As for DC, I'll have to read over my SR history. I can certainly agree that BOTH sides would want to take DC. Your statement would seem to indicate that the UCAS wouldn't care where DC goes. However, most of the metropolitan area is definitely more Union than Confederate. There would certainly be some conflicts, but I seriously, seriously doubt the capital would let itself become 'rebel'. If the Confederates want DC, they'll have to either make it completely unattractive to the north (not sure how they'd do that. Maybe just make it politically dangerous enough that the capital moves somewhere else, then take it, but that'll take time and it'll be hotly contested until the merge with Canada), or they'll have to take it directly by force of arms. Maryland is small beans, but it'll go where DC goes, most likely (it's strategically critical).

As for the military, yes, we have an awful lot of military bases in the south and midwest, and we've moved a fair amount of our production facilities down there. However, every soldier has sworn to uphold the constitution and to obey his superior officer. While there would likely be some rebellion in the ranks, especially among the national guard and grunts, all the major guns (bombers, nukes and the navy) will be tightly held by the most trusted and well protected people. Rebels will be court martialed and likely shot. Troops overseas will be brought back to the north, not allowed to fight on whichever side they want (and what good is a rebel cell in Okinawa?)

[Lazarus]

Nezumi:

Here is a link that would do more then rearguing my point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race

And I wasn't saying there weren't any differences. In fact here is what I was saying can be taken from the text from the link:

"Many evolutionary and social scientists, drawing on such biological research, think common race definitions, or any race definitions pertaining to humans, lack taxonomic rigour and validity. They argue that race definitions are imprecise, arbitrary, derived from custom, and that the races observed vary according to the culture examined. They further maintain that race is best understood as a social construct." This is the side of the argument I fall on. The link does have the other side though.

And no Critias' complaint is only valid in that is a statement of fact, but it just happens to be false because his argument was that the original post was NOT a factual statement when in fact it is. Now whether that statement is true or false is up for debate but the fact remains it is still a "factual statement" and not a statement of opinion.

I would have to disagree with you Nezumi because I think you are associating too much of the previous American Civil War with the Secession in SR. For one thing the CAS is not the CSA and the UCAS is not the Union. There is no Union and Confederate. Times have changed. There is no slavery issue, no States Rights issue, and you don't have President Lincoln running the White House.

And the argument that the oath to the Constitution and obeying a superior officer to have that much significance on a universal level throughout the military is a huge leap. The way I read the break up in SR world is that it is mostly a bloodless parting between two sections of the country that don't see eye to eye politically anymore. Most common people and common soldiers really aren't going to care. They are going to go home to whatever state they are from and serve there if at all.

Although there are a lot of people who join the military out of patriotism I would say that a good majority join out economic need. The point is why would an average person risk their lives for the USA when there is no more USA? It’s the UCAS which, to me, has the same problems from a national heritage that inspires patriotism stand point as any new nation such as the CAS, the NAN, Atzlan, The Tir, or whoever.

The main difference between 1861 and the SR world is that CAS doesn't want to be apart of the UCAS and the UCAS doesn't feel the need to force them to stay. Hell the UCAS even kicked out California.

And your right in saying that most likely where Maryland goes so will D.C. but in my timeline Maryland joins the CAS as does Virginia. So getting D.C. or making it unattractive is really a non-issue.

[nezumi]

Well, I can't argue with 'in my game'. I'll admit, I don't know enough guys from SE or anything to say which way most would try to go. Certainly most political people, and most of the middle class surrounding DC, would probably try to go with the UCAS. Failing that, I suspect they'd move. The federal government of the US effectively becomes the government of the UCAS, judging from the books, and that would presumably include most of the employees (or at least those stationed at headquarters). Being a federal employee, I would not be anxious to either quit my job nor move just because the southerners don't like the feds. I would vote to stay UCAS. But as I said, it's your game.

As for 'there is no color'...

This is a black person:
http://www.wvah.com/programs/berniemac/cam...illewinbush.jpg

This is a white person:
http://www.met.utah.edu/people/staff/P8260.../variant/person

This is a Native American person (also called 'red', without the intent to be insulting):
http://www.friendsofsweetwatercreek.org/DBROWN0s.JPG

(I just grabbed the first pictures in google image searches, BTW. Any bias is on the part of people who link regularly to these pictures with those terms.)

As you can tell, these people have different color skins.

Hence, there clearly IS [differences in] color. (I presume that that is a more complete understanding of the original statement. If I showed everyone was black, there still would be color, but I think I'd be missing the implied point.) That is a factual statement and I have proven it true. The color of my skin is pale-olive. My wife's is much whiter. Whether this is a subject of race or not is completely irrelevant. How many Asians (or whatever brown skinned nationality you want to consider) were harassed because people thought they were Arab? People are and continue to be judged solely on the light reflected off their skin.

[stevebugge]

[PBTHHHHT]

Yeah, I can't argue with the 'in my game' statement either. But, being a person who was raised in the South and then moving to DC, I'll state my opinion that DC would go with UCAS. That said, growing up in Atlanta, in the late 80's and the 90's, there's been a huge population surge in the Southern states, such as Atlanta where Northerners and West Coast folks were moving into the region. I find it very hard to see a separation between the Northern and Southern states nowadays because of the ease which people move between the States and receding powers of the States to the Federal government.

Oh, the argument that people about colour. Very wishful thinking, I agree with nezumi. My sister's fiance is half indian and half irish, from that mix he constantly gets harassed by security and other folks because he look middle eastern. It happens, and I can name a few times I've been judged because of how I look (asian). So you can make your own judgment on that. :P

[Lazarus]

First of all I have no idea where you get the argument that I said there is no color difference in the various ethnic groups across the world. I never said it and going back and reading my posts I can't find it. I have no idea where you got this from.

The whole point, the entire point is that there is no BIOLOGICAL DIFFERENCE between the so-called races. The fact that African Americans are brown and European Americans are pale, white, or whatever is NOT A BIOLOGICAL DIFFERENCE. That is the point I am trying to make. Showing me pictures doesn't even begin to come close to being a counter-argument or point. If you would actually take the time and read what I wrote you would see that.

Basically what you are telling me, from what you wrote, is that all the racists are correct and there is a difference between people of different ethnic groups most of which is based on skin tone, facial make-up, and all that pseudo-science and Eugenic crap which has been proven to be untrue by any creditable scientist.

So is that what you are telling me? That there are significant, biological differences among people of different ethnic groups? Now I don’t think that is what you are trying to say? (Are you?) See I'm one those crazy people that think there is only one actual race: The Human Race. I base that on biology and species. I don't think that Asians and Europeans are TWO DIFFERENT SPECIES. The term race needs to be re-defined in order to fit it’s actual meaning. Are there different ethnic groups of humanity? Yes. Are there different races of humanity? No.

Now am I saying there has never been racism in the world based on the false notion of race? Of course not and in fact I have not once said that. Reading any history book or looking at the news I can see that it is alive and well. (Unfortunately.)

And after this if you still come back with some sort "See look I can show you other races, look at these links" "or I don't know how you can say there are no other races," then you have missed the point completely and there is no sense in going on with this.

[hyzmarca]

The thing is that there are minor biological differences between ethnic groups due to natural selection guided by enviromental and lifestyle factors. Take sickle cell anemia, for example, is most common in people of African decent with people of Mediterranean and Middle Eastern descent following.

It is nothing more than willfull ignorance to suggest that some genes aren't more common in one race than another and it is willfull ignorance to suggest that some genes don't lead to differing physical abilities. Tall people are better backetball players. It is as simple as that. It is foolish to ascribe any more or any less significance to such differences and it is utter stupidity to adhere to any notion of racial purity when genetic diversity is one of the most important factors in the long term survival of any species.

[PBTHHHHT]

Well then Lazarus, there was a slight misunderstanding going on between the posts. But as hyzmarca said there are still slightly different things between people concerning biological dispositions. The example of sickle cell anemia is a good example because it is more resistant against malaria. Another example is certain cancers is more predominant in one race while others are not. It just happens. Just slight differences due to genetic diversity especially from populations being separated and in different environments for a darn real long time before the world got to be a smaller place due to developments in transportation.

I don't think there's any one better race or that there any differences between races. But I do think there people who are predisposed to certain ailments because of who they are. Nothing major and whatnot, but it just happens. Like dog breeds, there's lots of different breeds, problem is the purebreds all have different sort of ailments that they are disposed towards, but other than that they're all the same, just different shapes and sizes and whatnot. lol. Maybe everyone should be mutts that way it'll solve a lot of problems.

[iron mouser]

[The Stainless St...]

[ThreeGee]

[spotlite]

What a bizarre, bizarre, thread.

Speaking as a brit - and we have our fair share of racism - I just cannot get my head around a country as schizophrenic as the US. And I'm from a country where the accents change when you cross a bloody valley.

But, all this odd racism pedantry aside, as far as I can tell, the NAN revolution is quite realistic. A bunch of people get locked up for no reason other than the colour of their skin and that a minority of them are willing to kill to further their political beleifs. They are rounded up on the basis of mere trace elements of genetic code (and by the way, while I sincerely agree from a personal standpoint that there is no colour, just the human race, I would add the caveat 'and we're all scumbags' just to make sure, and I would humbly point out that a phenotypic difference is still a biological difference based on the genetic code of the invidual), and all kept together to fester and dwell on their hatred of the people who did this to them. Now, this part is certainly probable, and anyone who doesn't beleive me just has to look at the way the 'war on terror' (god that makes me laugh. Fight terror with... something that inspires terror! Wonderful!) is going (and in some cases, the way its gone already).

Then they get free amid the chaos of a plague, which for whatever reason they are largely unaffected by, when half or more of the 'opposition' are down for the count and incapable of decision making or for that matter defending themselves, and take over a few nuke silos. The govmint finally gets its act together, remarkably quickly given the situation and rolls out the tanks. Then the primitives (and now I'm using inflammatory language on purpose simply because you're all taking this discussion about a fictional scenario ever so seriously. In my opinion, based on evidence, 'primitive'='has the half a brain the so called civilised world is sadly lacking) and all that strange dancing and chanting they get up to manage to blow up a bunch of volcanoes, generate tornadoes and bring down fighter jets and threaten - realistically or no - to do much worse. They are able to do this because magic has returned and not only have they cottoned on to that fact wheras all the white folks haven't, but they've actually got some fully trained war shamans ready to use it.

The government pretty much loses control at this point, and to be honest probably has its hands full just containing the panic. And if that's not enough for you, then perhaps the leaders of the US got a few midnight visitors in the form of ritual sendings or spirits threatening them personally and their families. The west doesn't have the knack of magic yet, so they've no defense.

Now, with the greatest of respect to the american presidents and the superhuman hallowed status US citizens seem to hold them in, they are politicians, an inherently self-preserving breed. You're telling me they won't roll over? Doubtful.

I too have a hard time seeing the population figures working, as the original poster points out. I CERTAINLY doubt very much that once the rest of the continent got magic figured out that they'd leave the situation as it is. But the initial creation of the NAN states? Nope, no problem with that at all. But then, I'm not from the US, and perhaps - and I really don't want to upset anyone here, but I suspect I will - being from a nation which used to rule half the world and lost it, I don't share the US citizen's sense of immortality about my nation.

Oh, and while I'm at it, we DID steal that land. Humans may work that way, but we don't have to bloody well embrace it and treat it like that's the right way to behave.