 Why even get cyberware? |
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 Jan 17 2006, 03:03 AM
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#1
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019  |
Bioware is so much cheaper essence-wise even than delta-grade, and it's on average about 5 times as cost-effective nuyen-wise compared to delta grade. Most of the time, its availability isn't even higher.
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Jan 17 2006, 04:06 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,885 |
money?
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Jan 17 2006, 04:16 AM
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#3
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Cyberware can do some things bioware cannot.
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Jan 17 2006, 04:30 AM
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#4
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
True. Like store guns in your arms and stuff.
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Jan 17 2006, 04:32 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 20-December 05 Member No.: 8,088 |
Agreed.
Plus, Cyberware is shiny and cool. It's also about image. |
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Jan 17 2006, 05:06 AM
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#6
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
But bioware is always more efficient magic-point wise than even Adept powers; it's like they're encouraging burnout.
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Jan 17 2006, 05:14 AM
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#7
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Bioware had better be more efficient than getting Adept Powers on a magic-for-magic basis - it has additional costs. It costs Essence and :nuyen: in addition to just Magic, so if it cost the same or more in Magic it would be an insultingly shitty deal.
-Frank |
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Jan 17 2006, 06:55 AM
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#8
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
Don't forget that when you calculate Essense loss for bioware and cyberware, you take the highest one, then half of the lowest one. So if you go mostly for bioware, what cyberware you do take will cost half of the normal Essense cost.
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Jan 17 2006, 09:19 AM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
Here it is. Bioware used to cost something called bio-index or something.having a high bio-index made it so you never healed.Or slowed you down so much that if it was a big as essence you would take a light wound and having it for week unless you were healed with magic.
In forth they got rid of that. They did not change the cost of a lot of cyberware. But they change what bioware cost your characters. I see this as one forth ed biggest flaw. The only cyberware you want is the thing that bio can't do. They need to rework the costs of cyberware. Sorry but wired reflexs need to cost way less money and essence. This is a legacy issue, and one that need to be fixed. I do not think bio or cyber should be hand down better than the other. I do not think that if given a resouce that the players can't refund that there should items that are provably better in every way. you have 6 point of essence and you don't get them back. I am just sorry if something bio or cyber and do the same thing they should both cost about the same in money and essence. I do not mind if bioware is basically higher grade.Hell you could make it even slightly less money, under the idea that you have to put some much just to get it or something. So if the cyberware cost 2 essence and 30K.. The bioware should cost no less than 1 essence, and something like 300K(maybe 280K). That would make them different enough that the poor man would get cyberware and the rich man would get bio. That would also make them balanced..As the man with cybware could get delta grade and bingo pay the price for his crome. |
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Jan 17 2006, 02:45 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 12-April 04 From: Lacey, Washington Member No.: 6,237 |
Bioware costs less essence, but some of the cyberware is an incredible steal in terms of the raw, "how tough can I make this character on 50 points of resources" power. Take muscle replacement - horrible deal on essence but it costs 5,000 :nuyen: and gives +1 to Agility AND Strength. 1 Build Point spent on Resources gets you 20 in Attributes!!! The Reaction Enhancer (in addition to costing so little essence it might as well *be* bioware) is almost as good - 2 build points to get you 10 points worth of stat. The fact that the stat in question is Reaction (useful for going first and not getting shot) and the essence hit is low make this item a must have. Hell, a decent car costs more.
Synaptic booster is 80,000 :nuyen: per level. That's 16 Build Points - more expensive than buying Reaction naturally! Muscle Augmentation and Muscle Toner are okay - the exchange ratio works out to something like 7 to 1 in each case - and the low essence hit is nice. The only bioware that's an actual steal, however, is the oft-maligned Adrenal Pump, which gets you 40 BP in temporary stat boost for every 6 BP you put in. Finally, cyberware costs very, very little. The old (2nd Edition) Street Samurai archetype needed 400,000 :nuyen: (Resources B) to get his cyber - Wired II, Dermal Plating I, Muscle Replacement I, Retractable Spur, Cybereyes and Smartlink if I remember right. You can do the same build on less than 50,000 :nuyen: today. I.e. that's only 10 BP on resources - leaving you a lot more for contacts. Take the stuff as alphaware (saving at least a full point of essence) or sub in only the most attractive bioware, and you get a build that's just as powerful as an all bioware guy, but on only half the points. |
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Jan 17 2006, 03:47 PM
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#11
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
Why cyber? It's all about style and flavor! I'm sorry but Muscle augmenttation just doesn't have the eyepopping wow factor that a shiny chrome cyber arm has. If the only thing you look at when building a character is the power fot build points ratio, in my opinion you're missing a big part of the game.
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Jan 17 2006, 04:22 PM
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#12
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
I'll second stevenbugge. Chrome can help to intimidate people, bio, can't.
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Jan 17 2006, 04:40 PM
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#13
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
The social modifiers table even says so.
Are you a chromed monster? +2 to Intimidate! |
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Jan 17 2006, 04:42 PM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,486 Joined: 17-March 05 From: Michigan Member No.: 7,180 |
Plus, didn't this reasoning begin with comparing bioware to DELTA-grade Cyberware?
A starting character can't very well get his hands on delta-grade stuff - and for most, down the road, it's unlikely that they'll get an appointment with one of the 10 (or so) delta-grade clinics in the world. When I make a character, I don't really think about the fact tha someday I might get Delta-grade stuff. I think a comparison with normal or alpha grade cyberware would give a better answer to the question - but with similar results to what everyone (including Emo) said above. At chargen, normal cyberware is sometimes cheaper nuyen-wise than bioware equivilents. Bioware means less of an essence-hit, though. Some characters care one way or another. Personally, I usually go the cyberware route - but I almost exclusivly play tech-heavy characters whose essense is shot anyways, and who need money for everything else. Also, like everyone said, cyberware does different things. If I want a cranial commlink - bioware isn't going to do it. |
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Jan 17 2006, 05:06 PM
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#15
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Is this still true, or are we assuming? Maybe delta grade 'ware isn't all that unobtainable anymore. Of couse, soon they'll be coming out with Zeta-ware! (I know I'm skipping Epsilon-ware, but that sounds dumb. Plus, they skipped Gamma-ware.) reference to those curious: greek alphabet: alpha - a beta - b gamma - g delta - d epsilon - e zeta - z and so on... Of course, they put their letters in a different order than we do, so depending on how you look at it, maybe they didn't skip gamma. Maybe that's next. If my memory of the order of the greek alphabet is wrong, someone please correct me. |
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Jan 17 2006, 06:25 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 371 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Regina Member No.: 8,145 |
The other downside of Bioware is that it can't be turned off. You switch off your Wired Reflexes when you're not on a run but that Synaptic Accelerator and Adrenal Pump are there all the time. So, anything that gets you excited triggers that stuff! Going to that hot new Concrete Dreams concert?
"WhoaManThisIsReallyCoolILoveThisBandSoMuchICan'tWaitToHearMyFavouriteSong!ChummerTheyTotallyRockI'mGoing..." <BANG> 5 points of stun damage! "I have a headache, I'm going home..." |
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Jan 17 2006, 06:39 PM
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#17
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
While this may may be true for the Adrenal Pump, the only real disadvantage of having an Synaptic Accelerator is that you'll have a penalty while trying motion sensors really slooow.
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Jan 17 2006, 06:46 PM
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#18
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Not per the RAW, Rotbart. That'd be strictly GM-induced flavor penalties.
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Jan 17 2006, 06:59 PM
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#19
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
P 254 Defeating motion sensors "Characters amped for speed may find it difficult to maneuver in this way; apply a negative dice pool modifi er equal to their extra Initiative Passes." |
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Jan 17 2006, 07:05 PM
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#20
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Yeah, sure... but that is such a delicate field - especially concerning overreaction (which would be more likely with wired reflexes turned on, as the user is not as used to it...) |
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Jan 17 2006, 07:07 PM
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#21
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Oh ho, DireRadiant FTW!
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Jan 17 2006, 08:25 PM
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#22
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
It's just an example how the book has little tidbits buried in all sorts of places that make it impossible to know what modifiers might apply to various situations. Ideally the GM screen, or somethign similar will have a handly dandy Sensor Test modifications chart. |
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Jan 17 2006, 08:59 PM
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#23
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
well that one is under motion sensors, so idealy everything about motions sensors are under one topic :P
or should that particular part be under the various reflex enhancers? thats the great thing about a relational database, you can link everything left right and center... |
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Jan 17 2006, 09:08 PM
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#24
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Books make horrible relational databases. You've got your table of contents, and you've got your index, and you might even have a glossary... but too much cross-referencing can get in the way of the reading material itself. The Shadowrun PDF isn't as easily plopped down on a gaming table as ye olde hardcopy, but having the thing in a laptop sure makes looking stuff up quicker. It kills the visceral experience of flipping directly to the right page for something, of course. I'm okay with that tradeoff. |
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Jan 17 2006, 10:29 PM
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#25
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
You can search in the PDF?
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