Why even get cyberware? - Dumpshock Forums

Why even get cyberware?

Rotbart van Dain... Rotbart van Dainig View Member Profile	Jan 17 2006, 10:35 PM Post #26
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951	Sure.

Bearclaw View Member Profile	Jan 18 2006, 01:38 AM Post #27
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304	Yea, that's the advantage to having an official, company made .pdf instead of scanned and dumped on Kazaa. You can search, copy, paste, add bookmarks, all kinds of cool stuff.

BishopMcQ View Member Profile	Jan 18 2006, 01:57 AM Post #28
The back-up plan Group: Retired Admins Posts: 8,423 Joined: 15-January 03 From: San Diego Member No.: 3,910	Not to mention the kazaa version carries a prison sentence and up to $50,000 pricetag if you get caught...

nick012000 View Member Profile	Jan 18 2006, 02:03 AM Post #29
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398	If you live in America. In Australia, it'll just get you sued unless you start trying to make money off of it.

emo samurai View Member Profile	Jan 18 2006, 02:04 AM Post #30
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019	That's IF they catch you.

hyzmarca View Member Profile	Jan 18 2006, 02:42 AM Post #31
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	And if the copyright holder doesn't just have you killed as an example, which is cheaper than a trial anyway.

Clyde View Member Profile	Jan 18 2006, 02:31 PM Post #32
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 12-April 04 From: Lacey, Washington Member No.: 6,237	That's WotC.

Kerberos

Jan 18 2006, 02:36 PM

Post #33

Moving Target

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QUOTE (McQuillan)

Not to mention the kazaa version carries a prison sentence and up to $50,000 pricetag if you get caught...

Do you honestly mean to tell me that violating copyright on a product worth perhaps 30 dollars will get you a fine of 50.000 and a prison sentence? I find that hard to believe. I think you'd be closer to the mark if you removed 2 or 3 zeroes and the prison sentence.

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Jan 18 2006, 03:00 PM Post #34
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	Would it be legal to download the Kazaa version if you already owned the dead tree version? What if you had already purchased the .pdf. (I know you wouldn't, but it's just a legal question) I'm more interested in the first one. I own the dead tree version. Can I legally download it? I know I could legally scan and make my own .pdf, provided I don't distribute it, but that's a pain in the butt.

PBTHHHHT View Member Profile	Jan 18 2006, 03:03 PM Post #35
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327	Depends if the judge really really wants to make an example of you... and if you piss him off in the courtroom. So be on your best behavior! :-P So just buy the darn book and don't illegally download, it's not worth it. :-P

Kerberos

Jan 18 2006, 03:13 PM

Post #36

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QUOTE (PBTHHHHT @ Jan 18 2006, 10:03 AM)

Depends if the judge really really wants to make an example of you... and if you piss him off in the courtroom. So be on your best behavior! :-P

So just buy the darn book and don't illegally download, it's not worth it. :-P

Why would I buy it if it's not worth it? :D

Wait that's not what you meant.

As it happens I did buy the book, the dead tree version, I much prefer the hardback to the PDF. The 50.000 dollar fine plus prison is way over the top however no matter how much you piss of the judge, not gonna happen, file piracy is at wordst the equivlant of shoplifting and they don't generally fine you 50.000 dollars for filching a candy bar.

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Jan 18 2006, 03:18 PM Post #37
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	But why is the .pdf version illegal if you've paid for the dead tree. For example, I know it's legal for me to download an .mp3 of a song, provided I have the CD at home, because I have paid for the song. Therefore, I can have it in multiple forms without stealing. It seems to me that downloading a .pdf while owning the dead tree is the same situation. The only reason I wonder is that in the second example I'm comparing a digital media to a physical one, and the first example is two digital. Of course, I can always legally make my own .pdf, so I really don't see how downloading it could be illegal; again, provided the downloader already owns the material in some form Don't get me wrong, I won't do it if it's not legal; nobody better be stealing from Shadowrun, but it would be convenient to have both.

Kerberos

Jan 18 2006, 03:37 PM

Post #38

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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

But why is the .pdf version illegal if you've paid for the dead tree.
For example, I know it's legal for me to download an .mp3 of a song, provided I have the CD at home, because I have paid for the song. Therefore, I can have it in multiple forms without stealing.
It seems to me that downloading a .pdf while owning the dead tree is the same situation. The only reason I wonder is that in the second example I'm comparing a digital media to a physical one, and the first example is two digital. Of course, I can always legally make my own .pdf, so I really don't see how downloading it could be illegal; again, provided the downloader already owns the material in some form
Don't get me wrong, I won't do it if it's not legal; nobody better be stealing from Shadowrun, but it would be convenient to have both.

Because they're considered seperate products. I digital mp3 on a CD is considered the same as a digital mp3 on a hard disc, while a printed book is not considered the same as a pdf digital copy. Kind of like how it's probably not legal for you to download a dvd-copy of a movie that you own on VHS.

Azralon View Member Profile	Jan 18 2006, 03:43 PM Post #39
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773	The PDF version can do things the hardcopy version can't, and it also costs less money but more Essence.

BishopMcQ

Jan 18 2006, 03:51 PM

Post #40

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QUOTE (US Copyright Office)

Uploading or downloading works protected by copyright without the authority of the copyright owner is an infringement of the copyright owner's exclusive rights of reproduction and/or distribution. Anyone found to have infringed a copyrighted work may be liable for statutory damages up to $30,000 for each work infringed and, if willful infringement is proven by the copyright owner, that amount may be increased up to $150, 000 for each work infringed. In addition, an infringer of a work may also be liable for the attorney's fees incurred by the copyright owner to enforce his or her rights.

Since the files distributed over peer-to-peer networks are primarily copyrighted works, there is a risk of liability for downloading material from these networks. To avoid these risks, there are currently many "authorized" services on the Internet that allow consumers to purchase copyrighted works online, whether music, ebooks, or motion pictures. By purchasing works through authorized services, consumers can avoid the risks of infringement liability and can limit their exposure to other potential risks, e.g., viruses, unexpected material, or spyware.

More information can be found here

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

But why is the .pdf version illegal if you've paid for the dead tree...<SNIP>Of course, I can always legally make my own .pdf, so I really don't see how downloading it could be illegal

The main problem is that the copyright law as written says you are only allowed to create a digital back-up of certain materials for certain reasons such as legitimate back-up in case of damage to the original.

The copyright in the book Copyright© 2005 WizKids Inc. All Rights Reserved. Shadowrun, Matrix, and WK Games are registered trademarks and/or trademarks of WizKids, Inc. in the United States and/or other countries. No part of this work may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted in any form or by any means, without the prior permission in writing of the Copyright Owner, nor be otherwise circulated in any form other than that in which it is published. lists exactly why it is illegal to download the PDF from any non-authorized provider.

I sadly have to explain this to people every day when they ask me to scan in and touch up professional photos. The law prohibits me from making a digital record of the photos because I am not the copyright holder.

--BACK ON TOPIC--

Emo--Buy Cyber because it's what your character wants and fits the concept...sometimes it will be the best way to meet a desired effect, other times it won't. But as many of the arguments here pointed out, it's a matter of style and personal choice.

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Jan 18 2006, 03:59 PM Post #41
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	Wow. Okay, I guess that answers my questions. So I can't even legally scan my dead tree and make my own .pdf? Bummer. Thanks!

zzimet View Member Profile	Jan 18 2006, 05:58 PM Post #42
Target Group: Members Posts: 1 Joined: 18-January 06 Member No.: 8,180	Well, I don't think the question should be: to cyber or not to cyber. The question should be: how can I get the MOST cheese out of the things, and I think the answer to that is using BOTH cyber and bio. That little rule that says that the lower of your cyber and bio essence costs is halved is very meaningful. (page 301, sidebar, section: "essence cost") Wired reflexes is almost a no-brainer for anyone not magically active. It's just that simple. Once you have those, even if you get little other cyber, your bioware essence costs go down. I think the two things are fairly well balanced. Sure, if you have endless money, bioware versions of cyber things are more essence-friendly, but they are often way more expensive. And once you are out of character creation, adding cyber/bio means going under the knife of someone who is likely a criminal and likely someone you can't totally trust, not to mention mainly at GM discretion. Scary? Should be. Zach

Dale View Member Profile	Jan 18 2006, 07:32 PM Post #43
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 20-December 05 Member No.: 8,088	my 2 :nuyen: Laws blow.

Kerberos

Jan 18 2006, 07:46 PM

Post #44

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QUOTE (zzimet @ Jan 18 2006, 12:58 PM)

And once you are out of character creation, adding cyber/bio means going under the knife of someone who is likely a criminal and likely someone you can't totally trust, not to mention mainly at GM discretion. Scary? Should be.

Zach

That's why you should get yourself a street doc contact. Preferably one with a decent loyalty.

nick012000

Jan 18 2006, 11:08 PM

Post #45

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QUOTE (Kerberos)

QUOTE (zzimet @ Jan 18 2006, 12:58 PM)

And once you are out of character creation, adding cyber/bio means going under the knife of someone who is likely a criminal and likely someone you can't totally trust, not to mention mainly at GM discretion. Scary? Should be.

Zach

That's why you should get yourself a street doc contact. Preferably one with a decent loyalty.

Or get yourself a license to get these things legally, and go under the knife of a doctor that you can sue for malpractice.

Grinder View Member Profile	Jan 18 2006, 11:26 PM Post #46
Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698	Never leave home without them - friends! Escpecially not when going under the knife of a street doc (who lives of his reputation and won't kill every customer/ patient he has, btw).

Eyeless Blond

Jan 19 2006, 11:29 PM

Post #47

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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

But why is the .pdf version illegal if you've paid for the dead tree.
For example, I know it's legal for me to download an .mp3 of a song, provided I have the CD at home, because I have paid for the song. Therefore, I can have it in multiple forms without stealing.

By the by, this is actually illegal now, thanks to the Digital Millenium Copyright Act that got passed under Clinton while everyone was busy watching the Lewinsky trials*. What you describe used to be protected under the "Fair Use" clause, but not anymore.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I remember under the DMCA it's even illegal to allow other people to listen to a CD you bought. I'm honestly not sure about that though, but I do know that it's the music industry's practice of suing its customer base that's prompted me not to buy a single music CD in the past five years.

*Around the same time we also sent thousands of bombs into Iraq under Operation Desert Fox, predicated on the "fact" of Hussein's possession of weapons of mass destruction, that President Clinton broadcast to the American people. What, did you think Bush was the first president to make that claim, or use it to justify policy decisions?

Space Ghost View Member Profile	Jan 20 2006, 01:35 AM Post #48
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 129 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 400	i know that if you play music in a public place you have to pay fees. A lot of restaurants don't bother, since it's rarely enforced and the fine you would be forced to pay if caught is negligible.

Galmorez

Jan 20 2006, 11:45 PM

Post #49

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QUOTE (zzimet)

Well, I don't think the question should be: to cyber or not to cyber.
The question should be: how can I get the MOST cheese out of the things, and I think the answer to that is using BOTH cyber and bio.
That little rule that says that the lower of your cyber and bio essence costs is halved is very meaningful. (page 301, sidebar, section: "essence cost")
Wired reflexes is almost a no-brainer for anyone not magically active. It's just that simple. Once you have those, even if you get little other cyber, your bioware essence costs go down.
I think the two things are fairly well balanced. Sure, if you have endless money, bioware versions of cyber things are more essence-friendly, but they are often way more expensive.
And once you are out of character creation, adding cyber/bio means going under the knife of someone who is likely a criminal and likely someone you can't totally trust, not to mention mainly at GM discretion. Scary? Should be.

Zach

Bingo.
In SR3, if you were going for 'ware, it was best to strike a balance between your bio and cyber. They've kept that concept in SR4. If you're going to put character creation budget into borging-out, get a good mix.

jago668 View Member Profile	Jan 30 2006, 12:03 PM Post #50
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 343 Joined: 30-January 06 Member No.: 8,212	Oh just so you know, wired reflexes comes with a trigger to turn it on and off. You would then pretty much have to assume that the synaptic booster bioware stuff would come with something similar. Just a thought, plus we have always let the physical adepts turn their initiative boosters on and off. Though I do have to agree with the adrenal pump, I've never really found it worth it.

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