 SR3 or SR4, I tried search, couldnt find much.. |
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 Jan 27 2006, 01:57 AM
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#51
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 488 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 90  |
ROTFLMAO |
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Jan 27 2006, 04:01 AM
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#52
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Correlation, r=0.78. |
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Jan 27 2006, 04:46 AM
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#53
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I'd go so far as to say that KOA and catsnightmare are actually stepping a bt over the edge. When they're talking about Shadowrun being harder to balance than RIFTS, we can basically discount anything they have to say. I know that they're exagerating to make a point, and so do they, but the point is that kind of exageration is indistinguishable from straight out lying. Honestly, that's the kind of embelishment that gets you kicked out of the Oprah Book Club.
RIFTS is the game where you can have two players playing a world destroying giant cockroach god and a jack-of-all-trades muscian with an interest in vintage records in the same party. Noone seriously believes that any of the problems that SR4 has are anywhere close to that level of basic character imbalance. And if people are going to make that kind of frankly silly claim, they are doing irreparable damage to their own credibility. Have fun with that guys, because I think we might know why this segment of the fan base is not being actively courted by FanPro. It's the segment of the fanbase that won't be happy with anything FanPro does and lies a lot. -Frank |
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Jan 27 2006, 05:38 AM
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#54
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: cockroach god :love: |
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Jan 27 2006, 08:19 AM
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#55
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
But Frank, it is fairly easy in Rifts to look through the classes and work out approximately how powerful each one is Then decide where you want your game to be, set minimum and maximum power levels for characters and make your players choose within that range. In SR4 the imbalances are more subtle and thus harder to work out. Sorry, not lying, just pointing out something I see Let me explain caretully. Rifts is less balanced than SR4 when run by a computer BUT it requires less effort and attention to rebalance. |
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Jan 27 2006, 08:30 AM
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#56
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Meh. I'm ready to bet the bank on the following assumption:
If you know the system, then it's easy to balance out and fix. If you don't, it's hard. It's this way with every system I've ever played. That said: Rifts is pretty damn messed up. (love it, great game with the right GM, but damn) |
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Jan 27 2006, 10:31 AM
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#57
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
Actually it comes because you get less whining froom players when you limit what classes they can have as opposed to if you limit what they can spend points on
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Jan 27 2006, 04:04 PM
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#58
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Or want to see. Subtle? You mean largely so small that they don't really matter under most conditions, and sometimes which way they go is not only debatable but also dependant more on players and GM than on the system itself? So balance problems would indeed be easier to see with RIFTS since not seeing them would be like not noticing a 5 ton elephant sitting across your kitchen table. :) I've been playing a mundane with no cyberware or bioware, and I am unaware of any compensation the GM has made to account for this. The character gets along fine, and is a real contributor the team. He would be somewhat out of place in a powergamer campaign, and he doesn't stand out head and shoulders in the team. Also magic still trumps all, like SR3 and pretty any RPG out there so all mundanes going agaisnt an awakened foe is an uphill battle. That seems to be standard RPG balance issues. Really, outside of the partially GM fiat powered Clean Steve, how many mundanes did you come across in SR3 that weren't mook fodder or string pullers that cowered behind their hirelings in a way that didn't make a lot of sense? SR3 is the superhero version of SR to SR4. So representing the iconic metahuman of the SR world as infailable and unbeatable face to face on paper stats alone is going to be a bit tougher, and without a bit of experience with the system and interest in doing so you wouldn't see the way. Maybe that is partially why I am comfortable SR4. My preference wasn't playing SR out at that high end of the power spectrum, with a PC going face to face on even footing against iconics. I also don't buy into infailable NPCs, only NPCs with really good public relations teams. So Brainscan might be a bit tougher to translate into SR4 with it's fan wank atmosphere intact, because without being quite advanced even SR3 PCs tended to get chewed up without the GM coddling and pulling punches. I also am comfortable with the SR4 style of centering tactics, which are still very much there, more around things my character is doing rather than centered around managing a number of constantly changing dice pools. Although I did miss the Combat Pool initially when thinking about playing, once I started actually gaming I didn't at all. I have found the Edge to provide some interesting leverage that requires similar decision making. Plus it works across the board, not just limited to combat. Fun? Yes! |
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Jan 27 2006, 04:16 PM
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#59
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
No, I mean subtle as in not immediately apparent, but becoming more of a problem over time. Just a few examples Hackadepts Social Adepts the disparate nature of karma cost versus point cost for technomancers the cheapnes of combat deckers versus technomancers. the sheer power of spirits. the removal of will combat versus spirits the incongruity of tech and magic how tech cannot detect magic but magic can detect tech Now people complain about riifts but the coomplaints come in two basic groups 1: the MDC/SDC dichotomy 2:the sheer range of differing power levels in classes now to balance those, you merely pick a power level for your campaign... and the MDC/SDC issue, if it is a problem, change the ratio. |
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Jan 27 2006, 04:34 PM
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#60
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
r=0.78
r=0.67
r=0.99
r=0.83
r=0.93
r=0.69
r=1.0, I'm really puzzled as what you see different than SR3? EDIT Ok, one difference. How Object Resistance and spell Force work in SR4 forces the mage to use higher Force spells, so the imbalance has been lessened. There is one big balance issue potential in SR4, and it isn't particularly sutble at all. The 1.3 errata helps immensely there with fixing the typo in the spirit stats, there have also been plenty of suggestions on the SR4 board on how to effectively handle any remanants, and it boils down to the old RPG bane. It certainly is front and center in SR3. Magic trumps, so you better have one or more awakeneds on your team if you are meeting a magic using foe. I'll trade to have those issues any day in place of the problems with SR3 decking, riggers, and vehicles. It is an even better deal because I get an improvement with cyberware costs thrown in for free. |
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Jan 27 2006, 07:58 PM
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#61
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
okay care to explain the r=0.xx bit?
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Jan 27 2006, 08:13 PM
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#62
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Coefficient of correlation to they simply don't know what they are talking about.
For a visual idea of what it means try here http://noppa5.pc.helsinki.fi/koe/corr/cor7.html Roughly r=0 mean no relavance, r=1 is like dead on. |
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Jan 27 2006, 10:00 PM
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#63
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Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105 |
I dig that. r=1
I have decided that Im going to treat Sr4 like Im going to have to treat MS Vista. Im gonna deal with it as little as possible, and once the bugs have been worked out, the addational supplements added in, and the most glaring holes patched, Ill be in the midst of it again. Please note that I finally switched to XP this october. I like Sr3 because I KNOW it. |
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Jan 28 2006, 12:04 AM
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#64
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
alternatively, SR4 is an unrealistically normalized version of SR. i think someone who has spent a significant portion of their life doing badass things ought to be pretty badass. and if they have augmentations on top of that? they should be really badass. look at the Blackwater guys, six months or a year back--something like eight of them, holding out against around a hundred of the opposition? give those guys smartlinks and cybernetic vision mag, and i bet there wouldn't be any survivors. |
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Jan 28 2006, 12:10 AM
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#65
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780 |
....and that's partially how we had the Ghost Bear incident. After you decimate so many people, the rest get ticked and do a mass ritual conjuration (of which still can't be done, in theory) and go meta-medieval on your city.
Being kick-ass is kick-ass, but being hunted down for your family jewels 24/7 means, no matter if you need sleep or new Duracels, someone is going to kill you the moment you have a weak moment. |
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Jan 28 2006, 12:15 AM
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#66
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
right. but the question is whether or not you can be kickass, under SR4.
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Jan 28 2006, 12:20 AM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780 |
Oh, it's definitely possible. I've heard of spirits being used to kick it, turning into RoboCop to kick it (if we ever figure out the armor rules for cyberware), rigging tanks, most of the adept tricks will still work to an extent, etc. Read them too.
If you can get the points, you can do quite a bit, however, others can get the points too, but usually the GM is the one giving them the powers, lol... |
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Jan 28 2006, 12:23 AM
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#68
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yeah, but a mundane guy with no cyber can keep pace with the most cybered-up runners out there. if everyone else in the world is as badass as you, you're not a badass.
to some extent, i think SR3 took this a bit too far--and SR2 probably took it even further, with the high-init sams simply splattering any and all opposition before anyone else could act (where in SR3, they splatter any and all opposition after everyone's acted). but SR4, to me, goes too far in fixing this disparity, putting everyone on an even footing pretty much no matter what. |
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Jan 28 2006, 02:00 AM
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#69
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
So how SR4 plays is unrealistic by which measure mfb? You wild guesstimation of the hypothetical sticking a computer in your head? Or what past SR rule mechanics have created by their design? SR4 cyberware and magic still gives a nice benifit, and someone with it definately is better off than their otherwise equal without it. However SR4 has added the option for mundanes to represent that badass quality and play in the same game without loading up cyberware. At least initially. Eventually the mundane will cap and need to take the artifical augmentation step. They just aren't totally outclassed at the start. Which all fits the people you are talking about in this paragraph very well.
It is just a matter of order, and where in time you are taking the snapshot. Think of the mundane without the cyberware but with lots of skills plus traditional general mental and physical training. More training than their Build Point equal that instead took the surgery path to badass. Now take the guy with just traditional training and give him another 40 Build Points in cyberware and bioware and he will definately kick bigger hoop. Just a single extra IP makes a big difference in an extended heavy combat situation. So some day, if he survives long enough, I expect Slim will spend some of his accumulated wealth on Synaptic Boosters, maybe some Tailored Pheromones. If he doesn't gamble all his money away first. SR4 has openned up a portion of the life cycle of a Shadowrunner that was far less viable to play before. What did that Shadowrunner do before he had several 100,000 :nuyen: of gear implanted or realized that he could tap into the flow of mana? |
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Jan 28 2006, 02:27 AM
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#70
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Target Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 16-January 06 Member No.: 8,166 |
Starve on the street. If he couldn't do it somehow, or raise the money TO do it, he'd be fated to be a homeless squatter bum.
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Jan 28 2006, 02:38 AM
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#71
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
In SR3 he was ghoul bait, by starting PC standards. Even for lower powered campaigns how often did you see a full essense mundane? But in SR4 someone with a fairly solid training background can now work as a freshman, and even sophmore runner to earn that money for his first chrome or vat job. He might still be squating in a cardboard box eating artificial seaweed flavour Chunky Soy to save up the cash faster. But he is eating and clawing his way up to godhood. |
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Jan 28 2006, 03:31 AM
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#72
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398 |
Even so, cyber characters are quantifiably better. Just reduce your Strength and Agility a point each (saving 20bp) and spend 4bp on Muscle Replacement, and you've saved 16bp.
In SR3, it is vaguely possible to make a decent uncybered mundane. Priority A Attributes, B Skills, C Resources, D Race, E Magic. Play an orc, throw in a bunch of gadgets, and rating 6 in a whole bunch of skills, and high scores for all of your attributes. |
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Jan 28 2006, 03:37 AM
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#73
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
Then put our money where your mouth is, show me how the things I mentioned either A: are Imediately apparent to any GM, or B: will not cause campaign problems |
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Jan 28 2006, 03:48 AM
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#74
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Why would I retype things that are there for the reading on the SR4 board? Especially when you don't even take the time to address the one item I did add extra text for because I don't remember reading anything like it on the SR4 board, and is something that stikes me as unlikely to come up on the SR4 board because it is so nonsensical. Which is an impresive height in nonsense. :cyber:
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Jan 28 2006, 04:01 AM
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#75
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
Actually, if you enforce the resisted spells rules in SR3 you get the same effect... many GMs did not enforce such spells though
oh and the 'rebalancing' of spells due to object resistance is kinda countered when for 3 karma you learn the spell at every force up to 12 |
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