 Spirits too Powerful?, Are spirits too powrful? |
  |
 Jan 18 2006, 04:27 AM
Post
#1
|
|
|
Target  Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 18-January 06 Member No.: 8,178  |
I have been running a few sessions of SR 4th and so far I like it quite a bit. I just ran my fourth session and had occasion to deal with spirits amongst the opposition. The PCs have been using spirits and I've noted they're pretty potent, but didn't realize their full potential until I started playing with them.
I used the occasion of a critical glitch on a summoning to have a spirit show up to attack the mage (and the party as a consequence). I discovered that the fact the spirit's skills and edge are all equal to its force left me with a nigh unstoppable juggernaut that the characters wouldn't have been able to deal with had they not gotten some lucky rolls. That of course got the characters thinking and soon they were summoning up spirits that pretty much trashed any mundane opposition I threw at them. Now of course, I can always ratchet up the magic, or throw in opposing spirits, but 3/4 of the party can do absolutely nothing to a spirit with a force of say 5 or 6 (let alone an even more powerful one). Obviously, spirits are meant to be majorly powerful and few things should cause fear amongst a player than a free spirit who's angry at the party. but given the relative ease a mage can summon up such an unstoppable force, does anyone have any suggestions as to more balanced ways to tone down spirit a bit? Best, Charles Millar |
 |
 
|
|
Jan 18 2006, 04:36 AM
Post
#2
|
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
A Force 5 or 6 spirit is a very powerful thing. Many people would say too powerful, and I'm not going to argue heavily against that. Remember that the official errata states that their Reaction Scores are "+X" and not "xX", that makes a tremendous difference. Remember also that the drain on conjuration is extremely random, and conjuring up a Force 6 spirit engenders a small but very real chance of death even for powerful magicians. Spirits of that power level are also quite visible even before they materialize, and materializing takes a complex action - so its prospective victims will always have at least one action to attempt to blow them away before the spirit can begin ripping their heads off (an action which is quite plausibly in the range of a character packing a heavy rifle).
Nevertheless, many games will find that spirits are too much of a double edged sword - a powerful appearing spirit makes too much of a difference and the drain engendered by a failed summoning is too high. For those games, I suggest the folowing house rules: Spirit Mitigation [*] A spirit's skills are equal to half its Force, rounded up. [*] The drain for summoning/binding/banishing a spirit is half its force, rounded down, plus the number of hits the spirit achieves on its test. No doubling. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 18 2006, 12:19 PM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
They should have kept the old rules that allowed you to use Willpower and Charisma instead of unarmed combat against spirits to ignore their immunity, that would have balanced it somewhat.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 19 2006, 01:52 AM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 18-January 06 Member No.: 8,178 |
I agree that the old rules provided *something* a mundane could do to a spirit. As written in SR4, though unless you're a mage or a phys ad (with just the right powers mind you), you're totally boned against a spirit with a force of 5 or 6.
One idea I considered was to declare all spirits would spend edge fighting the summons, but one of my players felt that is an overly harsh method of toning spirits down. I am going to implement the spending of Edge to avoid binding b/c that certainly seems reasonable to me. I guess the real problem is the 'immunity to normal weapon' power. In combination with the high Edge and the skills that equal the Force rating it makes the spirits really really tough. I'm still considering different strategies to deal with the issue and was wondering how other GMs deal with this particular issue. Best, Charles Millar |
|
|
|
|
Jan 19 2006, 02:14 AM
Post
#5
|
|||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The problem with this line of reasoning is that bound spirits aren't the gamemechanically troubling ones - unbound spirits are. The drain code on a bound spirit is twice that of an unbound spirit, and that means that an unbound spirit can be double the force of a bound spirit and remain within the same chances of drain-inspired character death. Since it is big spirits, and not numerous spirits that are the big scary in SR4, nerfing bound spirits is exactly the opposite of where you want to go. -Frank |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 19 2006, 03:14 AM
Post
#6
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Grenade launchers are still pretty effective against materiaized spirits, right?
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 19 2006, 03:22 AM
Post
#7
|
|||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
That depends upon the Force. The Immunity to Normal Weapons power is extremely binary. With 2 points of armor and 1 body for each point of Force, a Spirit will on average subtract its Force from the DV of an incoming attack. But it completely ignores any attack that fails to inflict twice its Force in DV. So there's a sharp cut-off. A spirit of Force 5 will take a big hurt from a high explosive grenade. A spirit of Force 7 won't even notice it. -Frank |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 19 2006, 03:43 AM
Post
#8
|
|||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Unless you take advantage of the chunky salsa effect, correct? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 19 2006, 04:14 AM
Post
#9
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 6-January 06 Member No.: 8,137 |
So mr. Big Angry Spirit, if you'd please step into this confined space with reinforced walls, we'd appriciate it ever so much... Somehow I don't see that as a solution to all your spirit troubles. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 19 2006, 04:41 AM
Post
#10
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 6-January 06 Member No.: 8,137 |
Wouldn't tasers be a good bet though? They cut armour values in half.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 19 2006, 04:48 AM
Post
#11
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398 |
They're elemental damage, so they ignore Immunity to Normal Weapons anyway. Just go and load your assault rifle with Stick 'n' Shock rounds if you're expecting spirit opposition.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 19 2006, 05:12 AM
Post
#12
|
|||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
No. They really don't. I honestly have no idea where you got that idea. The benefits of being elemental are completely limited to the beneficial AP values already included. There's no reason to even argue about whether things are elemental or not - it makes no difference. -Frank |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 19 2006, 05:14 AM
Post
#13
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398 |
Huh. Looks like they removed that during the change to SR4.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 19 2006, 05:37 AM
Post
#14
|
|||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
If you're looking to boost the grenade's DV, all you really need is one good shockwave reflection. Any concrete wall can give you that, even if the grenade lands next to the wall. There are lots of places in the sprawl within 2m of at least one concrete wall, and at that range, the initial blast wave, plus one reflection adds up to 16DV. And then of course, there's the fact that if spirits are consciously avoiding confined spaces with reinforced walls because of the threat of chunky salsa, then you have a place to run to where the spirit won't follow. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 19 2006, 05:59 AM
Post
#15
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 6-January 06 Member No.: 8,137 |
My bad. I somehow got the impression that the chunky salsa effect applied only to fully enclosed spaces. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 19 2006, 06:02 AM
Post
#16
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 6-January 06 Member No.: 8,137 |
Still a Yamaha Pulser does allow you to handle spirits with up to force 6 without any problems from their hardened armour and the Defiance Shocker can handle force 8 spirits if you can get close. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 19 2006, 07:19 AM
Post
#17
|
|||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Looking at the way it's written in the book, I can see where some might interpert it that you don't check for barriers reflecting the shockwave unless you're in an enclosed space, but it never really goes on to define what an enclosed space is. And since I was in that section, I ran across another thing I'd forgotten, because it's new to SR4. Any successes left over from the attacker's test after scatter's been reduced to 0m, increase the DV felt by the target. If you're good, you don't even need to amplify your blast by reflecting shockwaves, you can stage the DV up to where it'll get past normweap immunity. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 19 2006, 02:21 PM
Post
#18
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 18-January 06 Member No.: 8,178 |
I'm not certain of this, but I believe the 'base damage' of the weapon has to be more than the "Immunity to Normal weapons', not modified damage. Similar to how you check the base damage against the armor to determine whether the damage is stun or not. Chunky salsa, if this is true, wouldn't apply. Although the stick n shock/taser idea is certainly a good one... I'll have to look into that.
Best, Charles Millar |
|
|
|
|
Jan 19 2006, 02:36 PM
Post
#19
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
The wording on the hardened armor power, which is is what immunity to normal weapons grants, uses the wording "if the modified Damage Value of an attack does not exceed the Armor rating (modified by Armor Penetration), then it bounces harmlessly off the critter"
When you go back to p.140, to step four of the Combat Sequence, "Compare Armor", you find this sentence: "Add the net hits scored to the base Damge Value of the attack; this is the modified Damage Value." Seems pretty clear cut that it's not base DV that counts, it's the DV after you've factored in net successes. Am I missing something here? |
|
|
|
|
Jan 19 2006, 02:43 PM
Post
#20
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 12-April 04 From: Lacey, Washington Member No.: 6,237 |
It's modified damage, i.e. Base Damage + Net Hits. Immunity to Normal Weapons also fails against weapons a critter has an Allergy to. Water Spirits and Fire Spirits both have Allergies.
Still, Tasers and Stick-n-Shock rounds offer your best bet overall. You can damage a Force 6 spirit automatically and higher spirits with a called shot if the GM allows it (-4 dice, +4 DV runs your base DV up to 10S -1/2 AP). So if you can call your shot things are cool. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 19 2006, 02:58 PM
Post
#21
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 64 Joined: 7-July 02 From: NY Member No.: 2,942 |
Immunity: Spirit gains an armor rating = 2x its force vs. Mundane weapons. This armor counts as hardened.
Hardened: If the modified Damage Value of the attack does not exceed the armor rating (modified by AP) then it bounces harmlessly off the target. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 19 2006, 04:14 PM
Post
#22
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 371 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Regina Member No.: 8,145 |
I'm pretty sure the +4 DV for called shots falls under the same category as the bonus for Autofire and thus would not be considered as part of the "modified base DV" for a weapon when comparing against armour.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 19 2006, 04:28 PM
Post
#23
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
This is something that I've been puzzling over, myself. I run the risk of creating a thread tangent, I realize. Called shot lets you do one of two things: Either raise the DV, or potentially hit a specific spot on the target (such as an unarmored area). So let's say my opponent has full body armor, but no helmet. I naturally would like to do a Called Shot to his head. At this point, I'm probably losing 4 dice to hit.... but should the dice go to DV, or to ignoring armor? Armor penetration concerns aside for the moment, it's typically more efficient to take -4 to hit for +4 DV. It would take an average of 12 armor dice to soak the additional 4 DV. If you're ignoring less than 12 armor dice, the payoff comes from the +4 DV option. If he's got more than 12, then you're better served trying to ignore the armor. If you're concerned about his armor converting the damage into Stun, then you'll probably be wanting to bypass his armor anyway. I'd be hesistant to award both the armor bypass and the extra DV for shooting someone in an unarmored vulnerable spot, but I'm really not sure what to do in that situation. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 19 2006, 05:50 PM
Post
#24
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
One of the reasons spirits are so totally broken is that - yes, ADPS shotgun rounds and frag grenades etc. will hurt a powerful spirit. But your PCs aren't walking around with that stuff in the ready position all the time.
A conjuror, on the other hand, can snap his fingers any time, any where, and get a magical bulldozer. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 19 2006, 06:19 PM
Post
#25
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Well, I dunno about that.... |
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 20th June 2025 - 02:29 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.