I have been running a few sessions of SR 4th and so far I like it quite a bit. I just ran my fourth session and had occasion to deal with spirits amongst the opposition. The PCs have been using spirits and I've noted they're pretty potent, but didn't realize their full potential until I started playing with them.
I used the occasion of a critical glitch on a summoning to have a spirit show up to attack the mage (and the party as a consequence). I discovered that the fact the spirit's skills and edge are all equal to its force left me with a nigh unstoppable juggernaut that the characters wouldn't have been able to deal with had they not gotten some lucky rolls. That of course got the characters thinking and soon they were summoning up spirits that pretty much trashed any mundane opposition I threw at them. Now of course, I can always ratchet up the magic, or throw in opposing spirits, but 3/4 of the party can do absolutely nothing to a spirit with a force of say 5 or 6 (let alone an even more powerful one).
Obviously, spirits are meant to be majorly powerful and few things should cause fear amongst a player than a free spirit who's angry at the party. but given the relative ease a mage can summon up such an unstoppable force, does anyone have any suggestions as to more balanced ways to tone down spirit a bit?
Best,
Charles Millar
Full Version: Spirits too Powerful?
A Force 5 or 6 spirit is a very powerful thing. Many people would say too powerful, and I'm not going to argue heavily against that. Remember that the official errata states that their Reaction Scores are "+X" and not "xX", that makes a tremendous difference. Remember also that the drain on conjuration is extremely random, and conjuring up a Force 6 spirit engenders a small but very real chance of death even for powerful magicians. Spirits of that power level are also quite visible even before they materialize, and materializing takes a complex action - so its prospective victims will always have at least one action to attempt to blow them away before the spirit can begin ripping their heads off (an action which is quite plausibly in the range of a character packing a heavy rifle).
Nevertheless, many games will find that spirits are too much of a double edged sword - a powerful appearing spirit makes too much of a difference and the drain engendered by a failed summoning is too high. For those games, I suggest the folowing house rules:
Spirit Mitigation
[*] A spirit's skills are equal to half its Force, rounded up.
[*] The drain for summoning/binding/banishing a spirit is half its force, rounded down, plus the number of hits the spirit achieves on its test. No doubling.
Nevertheless, many games will find that spirits are too much of a double edged sword - a powerful appearing spirit makes too much of a difference and the drain engendered by a failed summoning is too high. For those games, I suggest the folowing house rules:
Spirit Mitigation
[*] A spirit's skills are equal to half its Force, rounded up.
[*] The drain for summoning/binding/banishing a spirit is half its force, rounded down, plus the number of hits the spirit achieves on its test. No doubling.
They should have kept the old rules that allowed you to use Willpower and Charisma instead of unarmed combat against spirits to ignore their immunity, that would have balanced it somewhat.
I agree that the old rules provided *something* a mundane could do to a spirit. As written in SR4, though unless you're a mage or a phys ad (with just the right powers mind you), you're totally boned against a spirit with a force of 5 or 6.
One idea I considered was to declare all spirits would spend edge fighting the summons, but one of my players felt that is an overly harsh method of toning spirits down. I am going to implement the spending of Edge to avoid binding b/c that certainly seems reasonable to me.
I guess the real problem is the 'immunity to normal weapon' power. In combination with the high Edge and the skills that equal the Force rating it makes the spirits really really tough. I'm still considering different strategies to deal with the issue and was wondering how other GMs deal with this particular issue.
Best,
Charles Millar
One idea I considered was to declare all spirits would spend edge fighting the summons, but one of my players felt that is an overly harsh method of toning spirits down. I am going to implement the spending of Edge to avoid binding b/c that certainly seems reasonable to me.
I guess the real problem is the 'immunity to normal weapon' power. In combination with the high Edge and the skills that equal the Force rating it makes the spirits really really tough. I'm still considering different strategies to deal with the issue and was wondering how other GMs deal with this particular issue.
Best,
Charles Millar
| QUOTE |
| I am going to implement the spending of Edge to avoid binding b/c that certainly seems reasonable to me. |
The problem with this line of reasoning is that bound spirits aren't the gamemechanically troubling ones - unbound spirits are. The drain code on a bound spirit is twice that of an unbound spirit, and that means that an unbound spirit can be double the force of a bound spirit and remain within the same chances of drain-inspired character death.
Since it is big spirits, and not numerous spirits that are the big scary in SR4, nerfing bound spirits is exactly the opposite of where you want to go.
-Frank
Grenade launchers are still pretty effective against materiaized spirits, right?
| QUOTE (RunnerPaul) |
| Grenade launchers are still pretty effective against materiaized spirits, right? |
That depends upon the Force. The Immunity to Normal Weapons power is extremely binary. With 2 points of armor and 1 body for each point of Force, a Spirit will on average subtract its Force from the DV of an incoming attack. But it completely ignores any attack that fails to inflict twice its Force in DV.
So there's a sharp cut-off. A spirit of Force 5 will take a big hurt from a high explosive grenade. A spirit of Force 7 won't even notice it.
-Frank
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| So there's a sharp cut-off. A spirit of Force 5 will take a big hurt from a high explosive grenade. A spirit of Force 7 won't even notice it. |
Unless you take advantage of the chunky salsa effect, correct?
| QUOTE (RunnerPaul) | ||
Unless you take advantage of the chunky salsa effect, correct? |
So mr. Big Angry Spirit, if you'd please step into this confined space with reinforced walls, we'd appriciate it ever so much... Somehow I don't see that as a solution to all your spirit troubles.
Wouldn't tasers be a good bet though? They cut armour values in half.
They're elemental damage, so they ignore Immunity to Normal Weapons anyway. Just go and load your assault rifle with Stick 'n' Shock rounds if you're expecting spirit opposition.
| QUOTE (nick012000) |
| They're elemental damage, so they ignore Immunity to Normal Weapons anyway. Just go and load your assault rifle with Stick 'n' Shock rounds if you're expecting spirit opposition. |
No. They really don't. I honestly have no idea where you got that idea. The benefits of being elemental are completely limited to the beneficial AP values already included. There's no reason to even argue about whether things are elemental or not - it makes no difference.
-Frank
Huh. Looks like they removed that during the change to SR4.
| QUOTE (Kerberos) |
| So mr. Big Angry Spirit, if you'd please step into this confined space with reinforced walls, we'd appriciate it ever so much... Somehow I don't see that as a solution to all your spirit troubles. |
If you're looking to boost the grenade's DV, all you really need is one good shockwave reflection. Any concrete wall can give you that, even if the grenade lands next to the wall. There are lots of places in the sprawl within 2m of at least one concrete wall, and at that range, the initial blast wave, plus one reflection adds up to 16DV.
And then of course, there's the fact that if spirits are consciously avoiding confined spaces with reinforced walls because of the threat of chunky salsa, then you have a place to run to where the spirit won't follow.
| QUOTE (RunnerPaul) | ||
If you're looking to boost the grenade's DV, all you really need is one good shockwave reflection. Any concrete wall can give you that, even if the grenade lands next to the wall. There are lots of places in the sprawl within 2m of at least one concrete wall, and at that range, the initial blast wave, plus one reflection adds up to 16DV. And then of course, there's the fact that if spirits are consciously avoiding confined spaces with reinforced walls because of the threat of chunky salsa, then you have a place to run to where the spirit won't follow. |
My bad. I somehow got the impression that the chunky salsa effect applied only to fully enclosed spaces.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) | ||
No. They really don't. I honestly have no idea where you got that idea. The benefits of being elemental are completely limited to the beneficial AP values already included. There's no reason to even argue about whether things are elemental or not - it makes no difference. -Frank |
Still a Yamaha Pulser does allow you to handle spirits with up to force 6 without any problems from their hardened armour and the Defiance Shocker can handle force 8 spirits if you can get close.
| QUOTE (Kerberos) |
| My bad. I somehow got the impression that the chunky salsa effect applied only to fully enclosed spaces. |
Looking at the way it's written in the book, I can see where some might interpert it that you don't check for barriers reflecting the shockwave unless you're in an enclosed space, but it never really goes on to define what an enclosed space is.
And since I was in that section, I ran across another thing I'd forgotten, because it's new to SR4. Any successes left over from the attacker's test after scatter's been reduced to 0m, increase the DV felt by the target. If you're good, you don't even need to amplify your blast by reflecting shockwaves, you can stage the DV up to where it'll get past normweap immunity.
I'm not certain of this, but I believe the 'base damage' of the weapon has to be more than the "Immunity to Normal weapons', not modified damage. Similar to how you check the base damage against the armor to determine whether the damage is stun or not. Chunky salsa, if this is true, wouldn't apply. Although the stick n shock/taser idea is certainly a good one... I'll have to look into that.
Best,
Charles Millar
Best,
Charles Millar
The wording on the hardened armor power, which is is what immunity to normal weapons grants, uses the wording "if the modified Damage Value of an attack does not exceed the Armor rating (modified by Armor Penetration), then it bounces harmlessly off the critter"
When you go back to p.140, to step four of the Combat Sequence, "Compare Armor", you find this sentence: "Add the net hits scored to the base Damge Value of the attack; this is the modified Damage Value."
Seems pretty clear cut that it's not base DV that counts, it's the DV after you've factored in net successes. Am I missing something here?
When you go back to p.140, to step four of the Combat Sequence, "Compare Armor", you find this sentence: "Add the net hits scored to the base Damge Value of the attack; this is the modified Damage Value."
Seems pretty clear cut that it's not base DV that counts, it's the DV after you've factored in net successes. Am I missing something here?
It's modified damage, i.e. Base Damage + Net Hits. Immunity to Normal Weapons also fails against weapons a critter has an Allergy to. Water Spirits and Fire Spirits both have Allergies.
Still, Tasers and Stick-n-Shock rounds offer your best bet overall. You can damage a Force 6 spirit automatically and higher spirits with a called shot if the GM allows it (-4 dice, +4 DV runs your base DV up to 10S -1/2 AP). So if you can call your shot things are cool.
Still, Tasers and Stick-n-Shock rounds offer your best bet overall. You can damage a Force 6 spirit automatically and higher spirits with a called shot if the GM allows it (-4 dice, +4 DV runs your base DV up to 10S -1/2 AP). So if you can call your shot things are cool.
Immunity: Spirit gains an armor rating = 2x its force vs. Mundane weapons. This armor counts as hardened.
Hardened: If the modified Damage Value of the attack does not exceed the armor rating (modified by AP) then it bounces harmlessly off the target.
Hardened: If the modified Damage Value of the attack does not exceed the armor rating (modified by AP) then it bounces harmlessly off the target.
I'm pretty sure the +4 DV for called shots falls under the same category as the bonus for Autofire and thus would not be considered as part of the "modified base DV" for a weapon when comparing against armour.
| QUOTE (mdynna @ Jan 19 2006, 12:14 PM) |
| I'm pretty sure the +4 DV for called shots falls under the same category as the bonus for Autofire and thus would not be considered as part of the "modified base DV" for a weapon when comparing against armour. |
This is something that I've been puzzling over, myself. I run the risk of creating a thread tangent, I realize.
Called shot lets you do one of two things: Either raise the DV, or potentially hit a specific spot on the target (such as an unarmored area).
So let's say my opponent has full body armor, but no helmet. I naturally would like to do a Called Shot to his head. At this point, I'm probably losing 4 dice to hit.... but should the dice go to DV, or to ignoring armor?
Armor penetration concerns aside for the moment, it's typically more efficient to take -4 to hit for +4 DV. It would take an average of 12 armor dice to soak the additional 4 DV. If you're ignoring less than 12 armor dice, the payoff comes from the +4 DV option. If he's got more than 12, then you're better served trying to ignore the armor. If you're concerned about his armor converting the damage into Stun, then you'll probably be wanting to bypass his armor anyway.
I'd be hesistant to award both the armor bypass and the extra DV for shooting someone in an unarmored vulnerable spot, but I'm really not sure what to do in that situation.
One of the reasons spirits are so totally broken is that - yes, ADPS shotgun rounds and frag grenades etc. will hurt a powerful spirit. But your PCs aren't walking around with that stuff in the ready position all the time.
A conjuror, on the other hand, can snap his fingers any time, any where, and get a magical bulldozer.
A conjuror, on the other hand, can snap his fingers any time, any where, and get a magical bulldozer.
| QUOTE (Zen Shooter01) |
| But your PCs aren't walking around with that stuff in the ready position all the time. |
Well, I dunno about that....
| QUOTE (Azralon) | ||
This is something that I've been puzzling over, myself. I run the risk of creating a thread tangent, I realize. Called shot lets you do one of two things: Either raise the DV, or potentially hit a specific spot on the target (such as an unarmored area). So let's say my opponent has full body armor, but no helmet. I naturally would like to do a Called Shot to his head. At this point, I'm probably losing 4 dice to hit.... but should the dice go to DV, or to ignoring armor? Armor penetration concerns aside for the moment, it's typically more efficient to take -4 to hit for +4 DV. It would take an average of 12 armor dice to soak the additional 4 DV. If you're ignoring less than 12 armor dice, the payoff comes from the +4 DV option. If he's got more than 12, then you're better served trying to ignore the armor. If you're concerned about his armor converting the damage into Stun, then you'll probably be wanting to bypass his armor anyway. I'd be hesistant to award both the armor bypass and the extra DV for shooting someone in an unarmored vulnerable spot, but I'm really not sure what to do in that situation. |
the answer is, you don't say, "I shoot him in the head" and then figure out what that means. You look at the rules, and have shooting him in the head as a rp thing.
Ify ou want to bypass armor, you lose dice = the armor rating. yes, it is easier to shoot past a lined coat than armor jacket. This is illogical, but them's the rules (i could easily see a house rule where "vests" are 1 dice eaiser to shoot past, and the lined coat a die or two harder to shoot past). Note that officialy, you can't take, for example, -4 dice to reduce his armor. it's all or nothing.
target a vital area: you get +1 DV for each -1 dice, up to +4
or a couple of other things.
I'd call a head shot on an unarmoed person both of the above, the rules state, "either of the following may occur" so I think technically you pick one. However, I could see a gm allowing both bypass armor and +4 DV. you'd lose a lot of dice from your shot, which makes is easier to dodge.
| QUOTE (nick012000) |
| Huh. Looks like they removed that during the change to SR4. |
Not exactly, they incorporated its effects into the elemental effects themselves.
It used to be that Immunity to Normal Weapons applied half against Elemental Effects. In SR4, that language was removed and now all the elemental effects simply ignore half the armor of whatever they are pointed at.
Lightning, Fire, Acid, it all halvs your armor. This was done to settle all arguments about whether a particular weapon was "elemental" or not once and for all. And let me tell you, there were a lot of those arguments in previous editions.
-Frank
| QUOTE (ogbendog @ Jan 19 2006, 02:49 PM) |
| Ify ou want to bypass armor, you lose dice = the armor rating. |
I don't recall that rule. Got a page number handy?
Edit: Found it on the bridge between 149 & 150. No wonder it didn't stick in my head.
To get the thread back on topic. Does anyone have other ideas of ways to tone down spirits, or offer mundanes ways to defend themselves from spirits? I've heard some folks on other threads advocate assault rifle w/ EX explosive rounds in short bursts along with a called shot. Does a called shot work against "immunity to normal weapons"? I would tend to think not.
Others have suggested 'stick n' shock' ammo and/or tasers. I'm not certain about that. One of my friends pointed out (and I think rightly) that the intent was to make spirits immune to tech, and stick n' shock and other such is tech, not magic.
One idea that occurred to me was orichalcum ammo and/or melee weapons. Sure it would be ridiculously expensive, but orichalcum is a magical substance, and so it seems to me that it would bypass the Immunity. I know it's typically used for telesma and foci to reduce the karma cost, but why couldn't it be used by a mundane just for the fact its a magical substance?
Obviously some of the spirits have vulnerablities, using weapons that key off of that might work against those, (incendiary rounds vs water elementals, gel rounds filled with water for fire elementals). What do you think I ought to charge for such 'custom' ammo?
Another idea was to have spirits use some of their abundant Edge to reduce summoning successes (effectively reducing the force of spirits commonly summoned). Alternatively, simply reduce the edge and/or the skills.
Best,
Charles Millar
Others have suggested 'stick n' shock' ammo and/or tasers. I'm not certain about that. One of my friends pointed out (and I think rightly) that the intent was to make spirits immune to tech, and stick n' shock and other such is tech, not magic.
One idea that occurred to me was orichalcum ammo and/or melee weapons. Sure it would be ridiculously expensive, but orichalcum is a magical substance, and so it seems to me that it would bypass the Immunity. I know it's typically used for telesma and foci to reduce the karma cost, but why couldn't it be used by a mundane just for the fact its a magical substance?
Obviously some of the spirits have vulnerablities, using weapons that key off of that might work against those, (incendiary rounds vs water elementals, gel rounds filled with water for fire elementals). What do you think I ought to charge for such 'custom' ammo?
Another idea was to have spirits use some of their abundant Edge to reduce summoning successes (effectively reducing the force of spirits commonly summoned). Alternatively, simply reduce the edge and/or the skills.
Best,
Charles Millar
Maybe have them use edge unless the summoner's specially attuned to them; if they have that quality, the spirits basically WANT to be summoned.
we haven't used spirits that much in the game, the first time in combat was last week, and it was more or less in effective.
A force 4 fire spirt, so it rolled 8 dice to attack (melee). the target rolled that many or more, so was never hit. For a sam, 8 dice on defense isn't all that hard to get.
I think the problem is that if you try to weaken the force 6s, you'll nerf the lower end spirits.
A force 4 fire spirt, so it rolled 8 dice to attack (melee). the target rolled that many or more, so was never hit. For a sam, 8 dice on defense isn't all that hard to get.
I think the problem is that if you try to weaken the force 6s, you'll nerf the lower end spirits.
| QUOTE (chazuli @ Jan 20 2006, 11:14 AM) |
| I've heard some folks on other threads advocate assault rifle w/ EX explosive rounds in short bursts along with a called shot. Does a called shot work against "immunity to normal weapons"? I would tend to think not. |
That is idea of one my player. I really do not know, if EXEX ammo or called shot can be used. I think ammo yes, called shot not.
Not to mention the question of where exactly is the weak spot in a 2m tall creature made entirely out of the elements. It's not like they have kidneys or brains that are vulnerable.
There was an idea i'd thought up a while back for fighting spirits. If you can ward a structure or area, can you ward a bullet? Firing an astrally warded bullet into a spirit couldn't be good for it.
I think the rules on bypassing armor state or imply worn armor. So it might work on a drone, but not a spirit.
wards imply some physical boundary, wall, fence, etc.
wards imply some physical boundary, wall, fence, etc.
"The gamemaster decides if such a vulnerable spot is accessable." -p.149
As for warding a bullet, as a stretch, I could see warding the volume of space inside of a hollow-point, except for the fact that in previous editions, if you detroyed the physical component that defined the boundries of a ward, the ward dropped. This clause seems to be omitted from the short section on warding in SR4, but I expect you'll see it return in Street Magic.
As for warding a bullet, as a stretch, I could see warding the volume of space inside of a hollow-point, except for the fact that in previous editions, if you detroyed the physical component that defined the boundries of a ward, the ward dropped. This clause seems to be omitted from the short section on warding in SR4, but I expect you'll see it return in Street Magic.
Ok... so wards are probably not a good option. As are called shots. What about orichalcum? Anyone know what the 'going rate' for Orichalcum is in SR4? I imagine that solid orichalcum bullets wouldn't be feasible, but how much would you think is needed to make orichalcum jacketed bullets? Probably too expensive to consider, but I'm curious nonetheless.
Best,
Charles Millar
Best,
Charles Millar
And what makes you think orichalum bullets would be any more effective than any other metal? It's not like it's a dual-natured metal.
Eh. Spirits are killable enough as it is. No need to mess with anything.
Last night we had a floating firefight involving the use of around 5 spirits and one on standby. The most powerful was a bound Force 6 fire spirit who was used to damage the OpFor speed boat. The mage for the other side banished him pretty quick (with a well timed use of Edge) after he hit. It got really dicey after that with spirits being bandied back and forth at a pretty high rate with both mages being kept busy summoning and banishing spirits at a pretty hectic pace. The mundanes carried on their firefight as per normal while hiding behind the hulls of their vessels and the respective physical barrier spells each magic user had erected.
I found the spirits to be very powerful and useful, yet at the same time they did not break the balance of the game. They seemed to add a great degree of flavour to it by illustrating one more dimension of the Shadowrun World. The players had a lot of fun and it even gave the non-combatants something to do. The party found that the spirits can be most dangerous when they are using a subtle power like "Accident" to try and make you crash your boat.
I found the spirits to be very powerful and useful, yet at the same time they did not break the balance of the game. They seemed to add a great degree of flavour to it by illustrating one more dimension of the Shadowrun World. The players had a lot of fun and it even gave the non-combatants something to do. The party found that the spirits can be most dangerous when they are using a subtle power like "Accident" to try and make you crash your boat.
I believe orichalcum would bypass the spirits "Immunity to Normal Weapons" since it is a magical substance, and magical attacks are what bypasses the Immunity...
Given the outrageous cost of Orichalcum (25,000 nuyen per 10 grams for unrefined, per Year of the Comet, 50,000 for refined) it would be self limiting in the campaign, so I'd be inclined to allow it. However there's nothing either way stated in the rulebook so far. Maybe Street Magic will address this?
Best,
Charles Millar
Given the outrageous cost of Orichalcum (25,000 nuyen per 10 grams for unrefined, per Year of the Comet, 50,000 for refined) it would be self limiting in the campaign, so I'd be inclined to allow it. However there's nothing either way stated in the rulebook so far. Maybe Street Magic will address this?
Best,
Charles Millar
I don't think orichalcum should be allowed, regardless of price. Never in any previous addition has mundane (quasi magical or not) material been able to defeat "immunity to normal weapons." Mundane weapons are anything that is not a magical power or spell or foci. Even natural attacks from critters (paranormal or otherwise), ghouls, or vampires are considered "mundane' in this case.
Magical powers are already very expensive (karma and nuyen costs). It is unfair to "cheapen" the value of Spirits by allowing mundane items to defeat the Immunity to normal weapons power. If a spirit manifests and you shoot it full auto with an assault rifle with ex ex ammo that's great. Good luck, hopefully you don't piss it off.
As said before the risk of summoning a Force 6 spirit is very dangerous. With 6 dice you could expect the spirit to achieve 2 hits on it's resistance. That is a drain DV of 4, your GM gets lucky and rolls 3 or 4 hits, that is 6 or 8 DV on drain and you might only get 1 service out of it! Even if the Spirit gets no hits, you still have a drain DV of 2. In the middle of combat the risk is almost too great.
also,
Think of this, to raise your magic attribute from 6 to 7 it costs you 34 Karma (21 for the attribute and 13 for the 1st initiation.) Magic 8 costs you 40 karma. I think spirits should be as powerful as they are.
RD
Magical powers are already very expensive (karma and nuyen costs). It is unfair to "cheapen" the value of Spirits by allowing mundane items to defeat the Immunity to normal weapons power. If a spirit manifests and you shoot it full auto with an assault rifle with ex ex ammo that's great. Good luck, hopefully you don't piss it off.
As said before the risk of summoning a Force 6 spirit is very dangerous. With 6 dice you could expect the spirit to achieve 2 hits on it's resistance. That is a drain DV of 4, your GM gets lucky and rolls 3 or 4 hits, that is 6 or 8 DV on drain and you might only get 1 service out of it! Even if the Spirit gets no hits, you still have a drain DV of 2. In the middle of combat the risk is almost too great.
also,
Think of this, to raise your magic attribute from 6 to 7 it costs you 34 Karma (21 for the attribute and 13 for the 1st initiation.) Magic 8 costs you 40 karma. I think spirits should be as powerful as they are.
RD
| QUOTE |
| Never in any previous addition has mundane (quasi magical or not) material been able to defeat "immunity to normal weapons." |
I agree that orichalcum weaponry does not circumvent immunity to normal weapons. But this statement is still false. Any weapon that contains something that the target is allergic to bypasses immunity to normal weapons, and in previous editions you could attack spirits with your Will in hand-to-hand whether you had any magic or not (and the statement justifying that is still in SR4, the game mechanics are just missing).
There are lots of ways to bypass immunity to normal weapons with mundane weaponry. From spraying a fire elemental with a water cannon to striking a toxic fallout spirit with your childhood stuffed animal, the methods have always been there. Not that it'll do you a whole lot of good most of the time, but there are ways.
-Frank
Shadowrunner's should always have APDS ammo with them. My character always carries two pistols, one loaded with APDS and one loaded with gel.
| QUOTE (Findar) |
| Shadowrunner's should always have APDS ammo with them. My character always carries two pistols, one loaded with APDS and one loaded with gel. |
Why not EX-explosive rounds?
| QUOTE (Zen Shooter01) |
| A conjuror, on the other hand, can snap his fingers any time, any where, and get a magical bulldozer. |
But can he ride it like a motorcycle?
As you point out, there *used* to be a means that mundanes could defend themselves against a spirit: using Willpower. That means has been taken away from fourth edition, leaving mundanes with *nothing*. Sure, if a spirit happens to have a vulnerabliity, then you can use weapons that take advantage, however only two spirits of the six have vulnerablities. The other four don't, and as such offer a mundane no means to defend themselves. Ex/Explosive rounds offer a little something, but given that a force 6 spirit is going to have 12 armor against that attack, they're going to be rolling 18 dice to soak up damage, in addition to any weapon with a power less than 12 being utterly ineffective.
I respect the opinion that no 'non-mundane' item should be able to void 'Immunity to Normal Weapons' however lacking other means to deal with a spirit, I'm inclined to allow orichalcum to act as an 'allergen' to bypass the immunity in lieu of the Will based attacks working.
The fact is a shaman can pretty much summon a force 6 spirit up ahead of time with out too much risk. Sure, sometimes they'll take a bit of drain, and occasionally they'll get no services, but the vast majority of the time they're going to get an unstoppable force for very little personal investment. Not sure I like that.
Best,
Charles Millar
I respect the opinion that no 'non-mundane' item should be able to void 'Immunity to Normal Weapons' however lacking other means to deal with a spirit, I'm inclined to allow orichalcum to act as an 'allergen' to bypass the immunity in lieu of the Will based attacks working.
The fact is a shaman can pretty much summon a force 6 spirit up ahead of time with out too much risk. Sure, sometimes they'll take a bit of drain, and occasionally they'll get no services, but the vast majority of the time they're going to get an unstoppable force for very little personal investment. Not sure I like that.
Best,
Charles Millar
If there was a practical way to supply minor magical weaponry, that would certainly help, otherwise...
Maybe bringing back the SR3 method of mundage/magical fighting is in order - it certainly existed before, you could definitely 'stick them together' again. That's a general advantage with supplying something old back into a new system, short of extreme changes to the mechanics of a part, they can usually fit back in.
However, I don't think it should be quite as simple as before, or at least capable of playing a defense, if not a fight.
It was a willpower test of some sort with Charisma as the 'strength' attribute as far as damage potential went, wasn't it? Or something like that....
Maybe bringing back the SR3 method of mundage/magical fighting is in order - it certainly existed before, you could definitely 'stick them together' again. That's a general advantage with supplying something old back into a new system, short of extreme changes to the mechanics of a part, they can usually fit back in.
However, I don't think it should be quite as simple as before, or at least capable of playing a defense, if not a fight.
It was a willpower test of some sort with Charisma as the 'strength' attribute as far as damage potential went, wasn't it? Or something like that....
Just use Stick 'n' Shock rounds. They'll automatically take care of anything up to Force 7, and with called shots, Force 11 spirits can be handled easily. Throw them in an assault rifle and open up on them with Long Bursts, and the spirits will be disrupted almost instantly.
I don't see any reason why Stick'n Shock rounds would bypass the "Immunity..." It's not magical. Sure in D&D you can by pass damage reduction with elemental damage, but this ain't D&D. I mean, you can't recharge a battery with a lightning bolt spell, right?
My belief is the intent was to make spirits pretty much immune to technological attacks. Stick'n Shock is definitely technological. Also, I seriously doubt you can make a 'Called Shot" on a spirit. I mean, which part of the pile of dirt that makes up an earth elemental is 'vulnerable'?
The immunity is pretty specific: if it isn't magical, it isn't getting past it. Orichalcum is certainly magical (the alloy can't even exist without magic), hence why I suggest it might bypass the immunity, but in all honesty they do state pretty specifically what bypasses immunity to normal weapons: weapon foci, spells, adept or critter powers. That doesn't leave much wiggle room. Although I suppose one is always free to house rule it.
Best,
Charles Millar
My belief is the intent was to make spirits pretty much immune to technological attacks. Stick'n Shock is definitely technological. Also, I seriously doubt you can make a 'Called Shot" on a spirit. I mean, which part of the pile of dirt that makes up an earth elemental is 'vulnerable'?
The immunity is pretty specific: if it isn't magical, it isn't getting past it. Orichalcum is certainly magical (the alloy can't even exist without magic), hence why I suggest it might bypass the immunity, but in all honesty they do state pretty specifically what bypasses immunity to normal weapons: weapon foci, spells, adept or critter powers. That doesn't leave much wiggle room. Although I suppose one is always free to house rule it.
Best,
Charles Millar
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