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 Spirits too Powerful?, Are spirits too powrful? |
 Jan 19 2006, 06:49 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 129 Joined: 3-November 05 Member No.: 7,923  |
the answer is, you don't say, "I shoot him in the head" and then figure out what that means. You look at the rules, and have shooting him in the head as a rp thing. Ify ou want to bypass armor, you lose dice = the armor rating. yes, it is easier to shoot past a lined coat than armor jacket. This is illogical, but them's the rules (i could easily see a house rule where "vests" are 1 dice eaiser to shoot past, and the lined coat a die or two harder to shoot past). Note that officialy, you can't take, for example, -4 dice to reduce his armor. it's all or nothing. target a vital area: you get +1 DV for each -1 dice, up to +4 or a couple of other things. I'd call a head shot on an unarmoed person both of the above, the rules state, "either of the following may occur" so I think technically you pick one. However, I could see a gm allowing both bypass armor and +4 DV. you'd lose a lot of dice from your shot, which makes is easier to dodge. |
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Jan 19 2006, 06:56 PM
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#27
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Not exactly, they incorporated its effects into the elemental effects themselves. It used to be that Immunity to Normal Weapons applied half against Elemental Effects. In SR4, that language was removed and now all the elemental effects simply ignore half the armor of whatever they are pointed at. Lightning, Fire, Acid, it all halvs your armor. This was done to settle all arguments about whether a particular weapon was "elemental" or not once and for all. And let me tell you, there were a lot of those arguments in previous editions. -Frank |
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Jan 19 2006, 07:03 PM
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#28
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
I don't recall that rule. Got a page number handy? Edit: Found it on the bridge between 149 & 150. No wonder it didn't stick in my head. |
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Jan 20 2006, 04:14 PM
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#29
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Target Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 18-January 06 Member No.: 8,178 |
To get the thread back on topic. Does anyone have other ideas of ways to tone down spirits, or offer mundanes ways to defend themselves from spirits? I've heard some folks on other threads advocate assault rifle w/ EX explosive rounds in short bursts along with a called shot. Does a called shot work against "immunity to normal weapons"? I would tend to think not.
Others have suggested 'stick n' shock' ammo and/or tasers. I'm not certain about that. One of my friends pointed out (and I think rightly) that the intent was to make spirits immune to tech, and stick n' shock and other such is tech, not magic. One idea that occurred to me was orichalcum ammo and/or melee weapons. Sure it would be ridiculously expensive, but orichalcum is a magical substance, and so it seems to me that it would bypass the Immunity. I know it's typically used for telesma and foci to reduce the karma cost, but why couldn't it be used by a mundane just for the fact its a magical substance? Obviously some of the spirits have vulnerablities, using weapons that key off of that might work against those, (incendiary rounds vs water elementals, gel rounds filled with water for fire elementals). What do you think I ought to charge for such 'custom' ammo? Another idea was to have spirits use some of their abundant Edge to reduce summoning successes (effectively reducing the force of spirits commonly summoned). Alternatively, simply reduce the edge and/or the skills. Best, Charles Millar |
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Jan 20 2006, 05:19 PM
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#30
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
Maybe have them use edge unless the summoner's specially attuned to them; if they have that quality, the spirits basically WANT to be summoned.
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Jan 20 2006, 06:09 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 129 Joined: 3-November 05 Member No.: 7,923 |
we haven't used spirits that much in the game, the first time in combat was last week, and it was more or less in effective.
A force 4 fire spirt, so it rolled 8 dice to attack (melee). the target rolled that many or more, so was never hit. For a sam, 8 dice on defense isn't all that hard to get. I think the problem is that if you try to weaken the force 6s, you'll nerf the lower end spirits. |
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Jan 20 2006, 11:02 PM
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#32
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Target Group: Members Posts: 26 Joined: 25-December 05 Member No.: 8,103 |
That is idea of one my player. I really do not know, if EXEX ammo or called shot can be used. I think ammo yes, called shot not. |
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Jan 20 2006, 11:10 PM
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#33
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
Not to mention the question of where exactly is the weak spot in a 2m tall creature made entirely out of the elements. It's not like they have kidneys or brains that are vulnerable.
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Jan 20 2006, 11:29 PM
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#34
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Target Group: Members Posts: 22 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 1,582 |
There was an idea i'd thought up a while back for fighting spirits. If you can ward a structure or area, can you ward a bullet? Firing an astrally warded bullet into a spirit couldn't be good for it.
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Jan 20 2006, 11:47 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 129 Joined: 3-November 05 Member No.: 7,923 |
I think the rules on bypassing armor state or imply worn armor. So it might work on a drone, but not a spirit.
wards imply some physical boundary, wall, fence, etc. |
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Jan 21 2006, 12:03 AM
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#36
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
"The gamemaster decides if such a vulnerable spot is accessable." -p.149
As for warding a bullet, as a stretch, I could see warding the volume of space inside of a hollow-point, except for the fact that in previous editions, if you detroyed the physical component that defined the boundries of a ward, the ward dropped. This clause seems to be omitted from the short section on warding in SR4, but I expect you'll see it return in Street Magic. |
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Jan 22 2006, 02:04 AM
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#37
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Target Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 18-January 06 Member No.: 8,178 |
Ok... so wards are probably not a good option. As are called shots. What about orichalcum? Anyone know what the 'going rate' for Orichalcum is in SR4? I imagine that solid orichalcum bullets wouldn't be feasible, but how much would you think is needed to make orichalcum jacketed bullets? Probably too expensive to consider, but I'm curious nonetheless.
Best, Charles Millar |
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Jan 22 2006, 02:53 AM
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#38
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
And what makes you think orichalum bullets would be any more effective than any other metal? It's not like it's a dual-natured metal.
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Jan 22 2006, 01:46 PM
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#39
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398 |
Eh. Spirits are killable enough as it is. No need to mess with anything.
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Jan 22 2006, 05:34 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 140 Joined: 26-July 05 From: Calgary Alberta, CANADA Member No.: 7,519 |
Last night we had a floating firefight involving the use of around 5 spirits and one on standby. The most powerful was a bound Force 6 fire spirit who was used to damage the OpFor speed boat. The mage for the other side banished him pretty quick (with a well timed use of Edge) after he hit. It got really dicey after that with spirits being bandied back and forth at a pretty high rate with both mages being kept busy summoning and banishing spirits at a pretty hectic pace. The mundanes carried on their firefight as per normal while hiding behind the hulls of their vessels and the respective physical barrier spells each magic user had erected.
I found the spirits to be very powerful and useful, yet at the same time they did not break the balance of the game. They seemed to add a great degree of flavour to it by illustrating one more dimension of the Shadowrun World. The players had a lot of fun and it even gave the non-combatants something to do. The party found that the spirits can be most dangerous when they are using a subtle power like "Accident" to try and make you crash your boat. :| |
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Jan 23 2006, 02:50 AM
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#41
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Target Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 18-January 06 Member No.: 8,178 |
I believe orichalcum would bypass the spirits "Immunity to Normal Weapons" since it is a magical substance, and magical attacks are what bypasses the Immunity...
Given the outrageous cost of Orichalcum (25,000 nuyen per 10 grams for unrefined, per Year of the Comet, 50,000 for refined) it would be self limiting in the campaign, so I'd be inclined to allow it. However there's nothing either way stated in the rulebook so far. Maybe Street Magic will address this? Best, Charles Millar |
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Jan 26 2006, 03:42 AM
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#42
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Target Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,668 |
I don't think orichalcum should be allowed, regardless of price. Never in any previous addition has mundane (quasi magical or not) material been able to defeat "immunity to normal weapons." Mundane weapons are anything that is not a magical power or spell or foci. Even natural attacks from critters (paranormal or otherwise), ghouls, or vampires are considered "mundane' in this case.
Magical powers are already very expensive (karma and nuyen costs). It is unfair to "cheapen" the value of Spirits by allowing mundane items to defeat the Immunity to normal weapons power. If a spirit manifests and you shoot it full auto with an assault rifle with ex ex ammo that's great. Good luck, hopefully you don't piss it off. As said before the risk of summoning a Force 6 spirit is very dangerous. With 6 dice you could expect the spirit to achieve 2 hits on it's resistance. That is a drain DV of 4, your GM gets lucky and rolls 3 or 4 hits, that is 6 or 8 DV on drain and you might only get 1 service out of it! Even if the Spirit gets no hits, you still have a drain DV of 2. In the middle of combat the risk is almost too great. also, Think of this, to raise your magic attribute from 6 to 7 it costs you 34 Karma (21 for the attribute and 13 for the 1st initiation.) Magic 8 costs you 40 karma. I think spirits should be as powerful as they are. RD |
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Jan 26 2006, 07:25 AM
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#43
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I agree that orichalcum weaponry does not circumvent immunity to normal weapons. But this statement is still false. Any weapon that contains something that the target is allergic to bypasses immunity to normal weapons, and in previous editions you could attack spirits with your Will in hand-to-hand whether you had any magic or not (and the statement justifying that is still in SR4, the game mechanics are just missing). There are lots of ways to bypass immunity to normal weapons with mundane weaponry. From spraying a fire elemental with a water cannon to striking a toxic fallout spirit with your childhood stuffed animal, the methods have always been there. Not that it'll do you a whole lot of good most of the time, but there are ways. -Frank |
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Jan 26 2006, 08:56 PM
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#44
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Target Group: Members Posts: 70 Joined: 7-December 05 Member No.: 8,056 |
Shadowrunner's should always have APDS ammo with them. My character always carries two pistols, one loaded with APDS and one loaded with gel.
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Jan 26 2006, 09:04 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 6-January 06 Member No.: 8,137 |
Why not EX-explosive rounds? |
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Jan 26 2006, 09:14 PM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 384 Joined: 18-August 03 From: North VA Member No.: 5,519 |
But can he ride it like a motorcycle? :D |
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Jan 27 2006, 05:38 AM
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#47
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Target Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 18-January 06 Member No.: 8,178 |
As you point out, there *used* to be a means that mundanes could defend themselves against a spirit: using Willpower. That means has been taken away from fourth edition, leaving mundanes with *nothing*. Sure, if a spirit happens to have a vulnerabliity, then you can use weapons that take advantage, however only two spirits of the six have vulnerablities. The other four don't, and as such offer a mundane no means to defend themselves. Ex/Explosive rounds offer a little something, but given that a force 6 spirit is going to have 12 armor against that attack, they're going to be rolling 18 dice to soak up damage, in addition to any weapon with a power less than 12 being utterly ineffective.
I respect the opinion that no 'non-mundane' item should be able to void 'Immunity to Normal Weapons' however lacking other means to deal with a spirit, I'm inclined to allow orichalcum to act as an 'allergen' to bypass the immunity in lieu of the Will based attacks working. The fact is a shaman can pretty much summon a force 6 spirit up ahead of time with out too much risk. Sure, sometimes they'll take a bit of drain, and occasionally they'll get no services, but the vast majority of the time they're going to get an unstoppable force for very little personal investment. Not sure I like that. Best, Charles Millar |
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Jan 27 2006, 06:21 AM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780 |
If there was a practical way to supply minor magical weaponry, that would certainly help, otherwise...
Maybe bringing back the SR3 method of mundage/magical fighting is in order - it certainly existed before, you could definitely 'stick them together' again. That's a general advantage with supplying something old back into a new system, short of extreme changes to the mechanics of a part, they can usually fit back in. However, I don't think it should be quite as simple as before, or at least capable of playing a defense, if not a fight. It was a willpower test of some sort with Charisma as the 'strength' attribute as far as damage potential went, wasn't it? Or something like that.... |
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Jan 27 2006, 07:38 AM
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#49
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398 |
Just use Stick 'n' Shock rounds. They'll automatically take care of anything up to Force 7, and with called shots, Force 11 spirits can be handled easily. Throw them in an assault rifle and open up on them with Long Bursts, and the spirits will be disrupted almost instantly.
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Jan 27 2006, 02:54 PM
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#50
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Target Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 18-January 06 Member No.: 8,178 |
I don't see any reason why Stick'n Shock rounds would bypass the "Immunity..." It's not magical. Sure in D&D you can by pass damage reduction with elemental damage, but this ain't D&D. I mean, you can't recharge a battery with a lightning bolt spell, right?
My belief is the intent was to make spirits pretty much immune to technological attacks. Stick'n Shock is definitely technological. Also, I seriously doubt you can make a 'Called Shot" on a spirit. I mean, which part of the pile of dirt that makes up an earth elemental is 'vulnerable'? The immunity is pretty specific: if it isn't magical, it isn't getting past it. Orichalcum is certainly magical (the alloy can't even exist without magic), hence why I suggest it might bypass the immunity, but in all honesty they do state pretty specifically what bypasses immunity to normal weapons: weapon foci, spells, adept or critter powers. That doesn't leave much wiggle room. Although I suppose one is always free to house rule it. Best, Charles Millar |
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