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> Questions of the Bizarre, Do ghouls Mate?
Mr.Platinum
post Jan 21 2006, 05:07 PM
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Yes i was pondering? I was warped in the head, but i could not find anything cannon that would suggest um you know, the uh uh, the schuka schuka, the hot dog and donut and so on.

Do a species infected with the HMHVV virus get it on?
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Ancient History
post Jan 21 2006, 05:26 PM
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Yes. Children born of ghouls are not Infected (at least not always), but are often infected shortly afterwards.
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Mr.Platinum
post Jan 21 2006, 05:28 PM
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Man thats some fucked up shit!

Thanks for creeping me out Ancient.
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Ancient History
post Jan 21 2006, 05:48 PM
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Never took a gander at Zeuvembie, eh?
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FrankTrollman
post Jan 21 2006, 06:21 PM
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I'm going to disagree with Ancient:

QUOTE (SR3 Companion @ p. 33)
As with any disease, it may not be passed to one's offspring; however, most children of ghouls are born infected.


There is an occassional pinky born to ghoulish stalk, but they are rare.

-Frank
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Ancient History
post Jan 21 2006, 06:38 PM
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Well, Hell. I must have misremembered.
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Zibik
post Jan 21 2006, 09:14 PM
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In Psychotrope one of the deckers is a ghoul. In one of the chapters he talks about his son being born a ghoul and it biting flesh from the mother as she tried to nurse it.

Oddly it doesnt really say (AFAIR) if the mother was a ghoul or not. One would assume so, but I guess its entirely possible she wasnt.
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PBTHHHHT
post Jan 21 2006, 09:20 PM
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QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jan 21 2006, 12:48 PM)
Never took a gander at Zeuvembie, eh?

Hmmm... one of the reasons of getting 'protection' when going for a night out...

What are some of the srun equivalents for protection? Full body condom that is meshed with chainmail and kevlar? :silly: dont' bother answering, I'm being silly.

Oy, I still can't get it out of my mind about the one comment in SoA, where that one exec is being blackmailed because of a video of him, some underaged boys, and a HMHVV-infected panda... :eek:
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FrankTrollman
post Jan 21 2006, 10:01 PM
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God damn that shit pisses me off. There is not now, and never will be an HMHVV infected panda. Ever. There can't be. If it turns out that pandas can be infected by the virus that causes vampirism, then the entire virus would be renamed MVV - Mammalian Vampiric Virus. If, as is far more likely, Pandas (and perhaps Koalas) can be infected with a similar virus that also causes vampirism of a sorts, then they are infected with UVV - Ursid Vampiric Virus.

HMHVV can only infect humans or metahumans, that's what its name means. There are nomenclature rules for a reason, and the names of virus categories convey real information, they aren't just a bunch of fancy letters put up to look cool.

---

Similarly, there is no fucking way that ghouls could be the result of a strain of HMHVV either - the name of the virus means that it causes vampirism. Since ghouls do not have vampiric powers, the virus that causes their condition would by definition have a different name. HMHHV (Human Metahuman Horridus Virus) perhaps. But that's a different, and much longer running complaint.

-Frank
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hobgoblin
post Jan 21 2006, 10:17 PM
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they dont rename a decease just because it changes its target. look at bird flu...

HMHVV was first documented as just that. then later on variations on said virus where then found to cause anything from ghouls to werewolfs...

btw, im not surprised that the ghoul strain can jump from parent to child. isnt there a whole lot of kids with HIV/AIDS running around in african nations because their parents have it?

desceases allso have a bad habbit of being able to mutate, and at a very rapid rate at times (us humans playing around with them dont help matter either)...

and ghouls can in broad terms be seens as a a variant on vampires. not as powerfull, but then allso more stable (no essence loss for one thing). they have a very specific diet, metahuman flesh, is astraly active, and can transfer the illness with a bite (iirc).

still, SR is a game. dont like it, dont play it that way. but as this is related to canon, i dont see the need to air what looks to me like a in-house rewrite of said canon...
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PBTHHHHT
post Jan 21 2006, 10:26 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jan 21 2006, 05:01 PM)
God damn that shit pisses me off. There is not now, and never will be an HMHVV infected panda. Ever. There can't be. If it turns out that pandas can be infected by the virus that causes vampirism, then the entire virus would be renamed MVV - Mammalian Vampiric Virus. If, as is far more likely, Pandas (and perhaps Koalas) can be infected with a similar virus that also causes vampirism of a sorts, then they are infected with UVV - Ursid Vampiric Virus.

HMHVV can only infect humans or metahumans, that's what its name means. There are nomenclature rules for a reason, and the names of virus categories convey real information, they aren't just a bunch of fancy letters put up to look cool.

---

Similarly, there is no fucking way that ghouls could be the result of a strain of HMHVV either - the name of the virus means that it causes vampirism. Since ghouls do not have vampiric powers, the virus that causes their condition would by definition have a different name. HMHHV  (Human Metahuman Horridus Virus) perhaps. But that's a different, and much longer running complaint.

-Frank

Geez dude, take a chill pill. or rather keep it up and have a stroke in a few years for all I care. Whatever the case, I could be using the HMHVV thing wrong, but still, it was funny reading that in the SoA commentary. And guess what, we'll stick with HMHVV for pandas and koalas even if it causes you to die. :nyah:
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hobgoblin
post Jan 21 2006, 10:34 PM
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QUOTE (PBTHHHHT)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jan 21 2006, 05:01 PM)
God damn that shit pisses me off. There is not now, and never will be an HMHVV infected panda. Ever. There can't be. If it turns out that pandas can be infected by the virus that causes vampirism, then the entire virus would be renamed MVV - Mammalian Vampiric Virus. If, as is far more likely, Pandas (and perhaps Koalas) can be infected with a similar virus that also causes vampirism of a sorts, then they are infected with UVV - Ursid Vampiric Virus.

HMHVV can only infect humans or metahumans, that's what its name means. There are nomenclature rules for a reason, and the names of virus categories convey real information, they aren't just a bunch of fancy letters put up to look cool.

---

Similarly, there is no fucking way that ghouls could be the result of a strain of HMHVV either - the name of the virus means that it causes vampirism. Since ghouls do not have vampiric powers, the virus that causes their condition would by definition have a different name. HMHHV  (Human Metahuman Horridus Virus) perhaps. But that's a different, and much longer running complaint.

-Frank

Geez dude, take a chill pill. or rather keep it up and have a stroke in a few years for all I care. Whatever the case, I could be using the HMHVV thing wrong, but still, it was funny reading that in the SoA commentary. And guess what, we'll stick with HMHVV for pandas and koalas even if it causes you to die. :nyah:

or better yet, push it even more so that someone gets a stroke or similar, faster :smokin: :silly:
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Ancient History
post Jan 21 2006, 10:40 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
God damn that shit pisses me off. There is not now, and never will be an HMHVV infected panda. Ever. There can't be. If it turns out that pandas can be infected by the virus that causes vampirism, then the entire virus would be renamed MVV - Mammalian Vampiric Virus. If, as is far more likely, Pandas (and perhaps Koalas) can be infected with a similar virus that also causes vampirism of a sorts, then they are infected with UVV - Ursid Vampiric Virus.

HMHVV can only infect humans or metahumans, that's what its name means. There are nomenclature rules for a reason, and the names of virus categories convey real information, they aren't just a bunch of fancy letters put up to look cool.

---

Similarly, there is no fucking way that ghouls could be the result of a strain of HMHVV either - the name of the virus means that it causes vampirism. Since ghouls do not have vampiric powers, the virus that causes their condition would by definition have a different name. HMHHV (Human Metahuman Horridus Virus) perhaps. But that's a different, and much longer running complaint.

-Frank

Oh, come off it Frank. I know you've got this mad hate on for the Ghouldom-as-virus thing, but you really should drop it.

Look, everybody and their brother agrees the name should be changed - HMHVV barely works for the ones that do drain Essence - but it's a family of related viruses. Would you rather there were, say, 14 different viruses that all caused really funky mutations in various metahumans (and other animals, in some cases)?
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FrankTrollman
post Jan 21 2006, 10:56 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jan 21 2006, 05:17 PM)
they dont rename a decease just because it changes its target.

Actually, they do. Just look at Simian Immunodeficiency Virus and Human Immunodeficiency Virus.

QUOTE
look at bird flu...


OK. It's named Avian Influenza if it spreads easily in birds and not in humans. Human Influenza spreads easily in humans. Avian influenza is seriously not a problem among humans, definitionally. The worry is that if enough birds have a type of influenza in proximity to humans that a new human-infecting influenza will develope out of that large and geographically disperse genetic resevoire. As soon as it makes the jump and starts infecting humans it is labeled as a Human influenza.

The name "bird flu" is a slang term, not an acronymized scientific category. Similarly, the H1N1 influenzy (most devastating influenza outbreak ever) was called "Spanish flu", but again that was a term for where it came from, and not for what it infects.

QUOTE
HMHVV was first documented as just that. then later on variations on said virus where then found to cause anything from ghouls to werewolfs...


Right. And those variations would be given new names. Probably HMHDV (Human Metahuman Dietary deficiency Virus), but possibly HMHHV or HMHLV depending upon how the categorizers felt about it.

QUOTE
desceases allso have a bad habbit of being able to mutate, and at a very rapid rate at times (us humans playing around with them dont help matter either)...


Actually, humans playing around with viruses doesn't normally cause problems (biowarfare games excluded of couyrse). But yes, viruses mutate a lot - which is why there are so many names for them! The H5N1 virus is the current big scary because it has such a high lethality rate, not because it is particularly capable of infecting humans. The human infecting influenza variants on the market today are H1N1, H1N2, and H3N2. The "H" numbers refer to the type of hemagglutinin protein on the virus and the "N" number refers to the neuraminidase protein.

The concern of bird flu is that the new combination of antigens could mutate again and make a new combination of antigens that is simultaneously dangerous to humans and extremely deadly to those it infects. Right now the H5N1 virus is rather less dangerous to humans than pigs - who eat more people each year than the virus kills.

QUOTE
and ghouls can in broad terms be seens as a a variant on vampires. not as powerfull, but then allso more stable (no essence loss for one thing). they have a very specific diet, metahuman flesh, is astraly active, and can transfer the illness with a bite (iirc).


Actually, that's exactly why ghouls aren't vampires. They can transfer their disease with a bite, a vampire can only transmit the virus by killing its target with Essence Drain - a vector that is both unnecessary and unavailable to ghouls.

QUOTE (Ancient History)
Would you rather there were, say, 14 different viruses that all caused really funky mutations in various metahumans (and other animals, in some cases)?


Yes. I would.

-Frank
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PBTHHHHT
post Jan 21 2006, 11:20 PM
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Anyway, so the HMHVV infected PANDAS should be a cause for concern in the wilds of China, but if there's such a panda craze nowadays at zoos, I wonder if the the infected pandas would draw a similar craze or not in the Shadowrun world. Plus, would people really want them to mate and have more HMHVV infected PANDAS? I guess that's one thing the pandas have going for them, more cuddliness and such. The ghoul nations should hire better publicists...
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hyzmarca
post Jan 21 2006, 11:51 PM
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I must wonder how many people who post in Shadowlands are actually hard-assed virologists and how many are lay persons using a generally accepted lay term.

Yeah, it should be possible for a blood borne virus to pass from parent to child. However, it should also be possible that it does not. The placenta serves to insulate the fetus' cardiovascular system from the mother's. Since parents and children can have different blood types this is very important. This also means that it is possible for HIV infected women to give birth to uninfected children. This happens fairly often. However, it is sometimes possible for small amounts of blood to pass through the placenta and certain viruses can pass through the placenta along with oxygen and nutrients.
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Ancient History
post Jan 22 2006, 12:20 AM
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Well, we all choose different things to be anal about.

[/edit] Just for shits and giggles, let's look at a general map of the HMHVV family:

HMHVV
-Transforms humans into vampires, elves into banshees, orks into wendigo, trolls into dzoo-noo-qua, and dwarfs into goblins

HMHVV (variant 1)
-Transforms humans into Abat

HMHVV (variant 2)
-Transforms humans into Amalanhig

HMHVV (variant 3)
-Transforms humans in Sukuyan

Bruckner-Langer Strain
-Transforms humans (and the rare elf) into nosferatu

Jarka-Criscione Strain (AKA HMHVV II)
-Transforms sasquatch into Bandersnatch, humans into loup-garou, trolls into formorians

Krieger Strain
-Transforms humans, elves, dwarfs, orks, and trolls into ghouls

Krieger-Laluah Strain
-Transforms humans, elves, dwarfs, orks, and trolls into sasobonsam

Krieger Strain (variant 1)
-Transforms humans, elves, dwarfs, orks, and trolls into busaw

Drop Bear Strain
-Transforms koala bears into drop bears

That's ten different strains, each of which probably has a scientfic name no one's bothered to post yet. If you break it down by species - which I think is pure overkill, but there is some basis for it - you're looking at a minimum of 17 virii. And that doesn't include weird critters like gaki which have barely shown up on the map yet. Too much of a geek fest, even for me, man.
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PBTHHHHT
post Jan 22 2006, 01:11 AM
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QUOTE (Ancient History)
Too much of a geek fest, even for me, man.

Ack, if it fails the Ancient History geek level test, then we gotta simplify it! ;-)
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BetaFlame
post Jan 22 2006, 02:00 AM
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Good god.

I didn't know there were that many different things the stupid virus could cause.

Sort of one of my players (which is likely with my wife) making an expert in virology, I think I will stick with the "normal" name.

Where did the info for all those damn varients come from?

And tell me the Drop Bear thing is a joke from the Drop Bear thread.
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FrankTrollman
post Jan 22 2006, 02:32 AM
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QUOTE (BetaFlame)
Good god.

I didn't know there were that many different things the stupid virus could cause.

Sort of one of my players (which is likely with my wife) making an expert in virology, I think I will stick with the "normal" name.

Where did the info for all those damn varients come from?


Yeah. There was a period in FASA development in which HMHVV was the default explanation for basically everything - leaving us with quite a bit of absurdity. Paranormal Animals of Europe has an HMHVV variant every couple pages. Apparently in the future virologists have simply thrown their hands up in disgust and all magical communicable syndromes are lumped under the heading of "Human Metahuman Vampiric Virus" even when they don't afflict humans or cause vampirism. I'm surprised that Mantis Spirits aren't classified as an HMHVV vairant.

QUOTE
And tell me the Drop Bear thing is a joke from the Drop Bear thread.


It goes the opposite direction I'm afraid. Drop Bears are a real (tongue-in-cheek) legend from Australia, and appear in several pieces of fiction in numerous sources. Drop Bears were listed as being an HMHVV variant, apparently as a joke about how many extra HMHVV variants had been written up, and the Drop Bear Thread is a running joke originally based on that description.

In short, it's simply something that has passed so far into meta-humor that it stopped being funny and became funny again and then stopped being funny again. The joke about how old the original joke had become has itself gotten old.

-Frank
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Wounded Ronin
post Jan 22 2006, 02:39 AM
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It just goes to show that simplification in RPGs is bad. What SR4 really needed was a panel of virologists and biologists to get all the biological stuff, and then a really complex engine for simulating disease in a correct manner.

Then they needed to hire John Mullins to implement calibers and firearms realism.

And then of course they needed to hire Stephen Kenson for magical real...oh, wait.
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FrankTrollman
post Jan 22 2006, 03:04 AM
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Heh. I don't think we have to go that far. Mostly I think it just shows the danger of shooting your mouth off when you don't know what you are talking about. I'm fine with the Ares Pedator being "a heavy pistol" - players who know what the calibers of actual heavy pistols can fill those in if for some reason it becomes important. But letting someone like me (whose knowledge of firearms is much like Antonio Banderas' knowledge of swords from The Mask of Zorro - the bullet goes in the other man) write in calibers that "sound cool" on all the weapons would detract from the game. People who actually knew anything about firearms would be insulted, and people who played the game would actually know less about firearms after playing the games.

Actually something similar happened with offensive and defensive grenades back in previous editions. A "defensive" grenade is one that is intended to be used from a fox hole, and has a much larger kill radius than an "offensive" grenade that is intended to concuss people inside bunkers from without.

Similarly, letting people write up a bunch of virus "scientific names" back in the early nineties when they obviously wouldn't have the first idea of how to even decipher a virus name - was an error.

-Frank
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toturi
post Jan 22 2006, 03:15 AM
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QUOTE
In short, it's simply something that has passed so far into meta-humor that it stopped being funny and became funny again and then stopped being funny again. The joke about how old the original joke had become has itself gotten old.
Then it is time we refreshed the old joke about the old joke!

Vampire Pandas on the flanks, Dropbears in the van! Form a spear of darkness! Charge!

On-topic: Yeah. Ghouls do get it on, you know. Like if they didn't, there won't be a ghoul nation. :P
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Mr.Platinum
post Jan 22 2006, 03:31 AM
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What in sam hell have i caused?
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Herald of Verjig...
post Jan 22 2006, 03:38 AM
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QUOTE (Mr.Platinum)
What in sam hell have i caused?

Nothing unusual. If not for your exposure to the mirth that is the drop bear thread, you too may realize how absolutely normal nit-picking and arbitrary flames really are. Drek, go look at any gun discussion, you can sometimes find 3 RL gun experts arguing about whose complete house-rule set is more perfect.
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