 Never fudge a roll again, ever, MILES training for PCs? |
  |
 Jan 26 2006, 06:15 AM
Post
#26
|
|||||||||||
|
Target  Group: Members Posts: 83 Joined: 2-January 06 Member No.: 8,118  |
True.
This seems more like the GM feeling sorry for the player/trying not to be seen as a bad person. Sometimes, life hands you lemons, and ignoring that ruins the flavor.
If I walk into a room, and I am killing by an ambush, my first thought is NOT going to be "Well, I should just stay at home." It would probably be along the lines of "I really should scout ahead more often..." I was not, and am still not, happy with the fact that if you somehow manage to roll, I think it's 3, 3 20's in D&D, you can kill whatever you are fighting, but the situation isn't quite the same in SR. As far as I know, there isn't an "insta-kill" where if you roll a certain combination, you can take down a dragon. We have guns, and unless you are in a TANK, or POWER ARMOR, there is a chance a lucky shot could nail you in the face. It's possible, and to ignore that possibility is to take the "fun" out of the game.
It's not that you have to write out a history for the NPC, just that you have to TREAT the NPC as an actual person. Treating him as "Generic Guard #3" takes something away from the game, in a sense bringing it down to the level of an FPS. Edit: Given that every combat round is about 3 seconds, 12 seconds is a good amount of time. |
||||||||||
 |
 
|
||||||||||
|
Jan 26 2006, 06:25 AM
Post
#27
|
|||||
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Unless I misunderstood, the way Clyde had it the characters will rarely find themselves in a position where, say, a Body 4 character takes 14 boxes to the face. Now, it can certainly happen (L+M+D is one combination where no individual stage is horribly injured but at the end a Body 4 character is flat-out dead), but I've only seen it a handful of times (and only once, IIRC, for PCs.)
Absolutely. Fifteen minutes is also a pretty short time in that case. ~J |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 26 2006, 06:43 AM
Post
#28
|
|
|
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
We just read his post with different experiences. No harm no foul.
For anyone that wants to continue on the "12 seconds is a long time" track: Mental exercise: Find a clock with a second hand. Count out twelve seconds, while doing your best to imagine how you'd feel if you were that close to death. Not "bleeding another box". Dying. Sometimes I think people start focusing too much on how long it takes to play out a combat turn in RL, and forget how short that combat turn really is in the game world. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 26 2006, 07:28 AM
Post
#29
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
What you're saying is true, but if you focus too much on how short an amount of time that is in real life, you lose track of how long it is in Shadowrun. Twelve seconds. That's…
I'm an idiot. He doesn't even bleed out in twelve seconds. He bleeds one box in twelve seconds, and all three of his remaining boxes in thirty-six seconds. I meant twelve combat turns. But yeah. For Shadowrunners, twelve seconds is a long time. For a pretty typical group that is about eight Complex Actions right there. For the group I'm currently in, it's more like twelve. The combat will probably be over long before the character is dead, unless someone takes another shot at him. ~J |
|
|
|
|
Jan 26 2006, 07:40 AM
Post
#30
|
|||||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
See, I would argue that the character in question was doing something very risky that someone wouldn't consider doing in real life, i.e. climbing to a very high height without adequete safety gear (rock climbing equipment, a spotter, whatever). Risks can work out, or blow up in your face. In that case the character would have been committing to a very big risk because of the height involved, and the risk blew up in his face. Why is it more fun if we eliminate the risk, instead of going with the decisions the character made and playing them out? If the character were deathly afraid of dying, maybe instead of relying on just an Athletics roll he would have brought rock climbing equipment and gave himself some spikes and ropes to "catch" him if he started to fall. So, by preventing the consequences from a big risk, you're still sort of invalidating the choices the character made. You're making the decision to take a big risk not a real decision to make a big risk. You'd be making all risks have the same basic degree of risk, and the character therefore lives in some kind of GM protective bubble la la land. Moving on to the next point, Eidolon wrote:
I don't really understand what's wrong with that. Even if you were John Mullins, and someone hit you with a solid shotgun slug in the armor and knocked you down, and then stood over you and put another solid shotgun slug in you, shouldn't you be ready to push up daisies? I mean, I'd argue that it would start to get asinine if you weren't in a very bad way after that. Isn't it *good* that shotgun coup de grace makes you die? |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 26 2006, 07:47 AM
Post
#31
|
|
|
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
@ Kage: Meh, we both knew what you meant. ;)
As to how long it is, it's still a matter of whether you're in nicely divided three second combat turns, surrounded by several friendlies, or if you're in a dark alleyway, watching the guy that capped you walk away with your credstick and sunglasses. :D @ WR: There's nothing at all wrong with it. Yes, it is good. You missed the point of contention. I think. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 27 2006, 07:19 PM
Post
#32
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 18 Joined: 23-August 05 From: The Sky Member No.: 7,597 |
Every roll we make is out in the open and we like it that way ti makes sure that no one is bluffing or cheathing in any way shape or form to save themself or kill some monster in a cool way. This does have its drawbacks when it comes to deadly confrontations but that is the way the SR universe is
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 28 2006, 12:14 AM
Post
#33
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 26 Joined: 7-September 05 Member No.: 7,699 |
I admit; I used to fudge rolls, and my other GMs did as well. Now that I've grown more experienced, I appreciate the fact that sometimes, things just don't go as planned. My GM told me our current shadowrun game would be "as it lies" no matter what. And since he brought this up front, there was no surprises.
two examples: in a Star Wars D20 game, our GM literally rolled more 1s than any other number on attack rolls that night. And it made the game rediculously easy that session. But we also realized that it was luck, and that's a large factor in our practically wound free session. In another example, in Shadowrun of all places, we had an elven Street Samurai literally destroy half our group in one combat turn. The samurai killed four combatants in one full turn; two of them during the same phase. Poor rolls on the player's part, and damned good rolls on the GM's part. I was one of the first two die in that melee. So be it. It swings both ways. And I know firsthand that your super powerful NPC that you've worked months on as the final climactic battle dies due to a lucky shot is the more frustrating thing in the world. But PCs can also be dropped the same way; the above Tacoma Forever Ork? he's in the situation that you were when fighting said ultimate NPC. How do you think he felt when he dropped you with the lucky shot? I've noticed that this play style has overflowed into other games I've played. No longer do I have the mentality of "I've got 100 hit points! That ork can only deal 1d8, and I'm the hero! No way I'll lose" Instead, if ANY kind of battle or firefight goes down in shadowrun, my first action is to find cover if at all feasible. THEN I begin the fight. Admittedly if no cover is around I'll adapt, but that's the exception and not the rule. My fellow players call me a coward, but then are surprised when I'm the one not rolling up a new character every five or six sessions. Because, when your character dies, you should view that as a learning experience, and be thankful that it's not real life where you wouldn't have a second chance like this. Fight smarter, not harder. Okay, I'll shut up now. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2006, 03:05 AM
Post
#34
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
More than one person has said something like this on the thread. Notice that the no-fudging, dice fall as they may style of game play promotes, gasp, *realistic* behavior on the part of the PCs! Now, even from a role-playing perspective, isn't that a good thing? If the characters behave in ways that real people would behave when their lives are threatened, isn't that an accomplishment in the character development/realism department? I just don't understand how some people can say that non-fudging or high deadliness is "bad for roleplaying" when in fact it seems quite the opposite, that these conditions help the characters act like real people and not like capricious demigods. EDIT: Let me clarify. I would argue that playing a character who acts like the Big Man On The Block, or is supposed to be some kind of badass, is utterly meaningless *unless* there is a realistic threat of defeat or death. If my character is supposed to be a very courageous and tough character, he or she can exhibit these qualities in the face of adversity and danger. Indeed, it is precisely comportment in the face of adversity and danger which determines whether or not an indivdual is brave and tough or not. But, if the character is not really in danger due to 200 hit points, or 7 points of ballistic armor plus 15 karma dice vs. unaugmented pistol wielding guys, I would argue that it is impossible for the character to act in any sort of truly courageous way, and it is also impossible for the character to truly act in what would be considered a "bad ass" manner. Very simply, the absence of great danger leaves nothing for heroic qualities to establish themselves on. If a character with 7 points of ballistic armor and 15 karma dice makes snarky Caleb-like comments while killing the 5th street unaugmented light pistolier gang, that character is ultimately just being a bully. On the other hand, if a character with 3s across the board and a Walther Palm Pistol stands up to the same gang in order to, say, let his family escape while he dies 2 rounds later, that would be a truly heroic and brave act because of the great risk and sacrifice involved in his actions. See what I'm saying? As a player, if the encounters, situations, and challenges aren't deadly, my character is *unable* to be heroic. At best, my character can be a capricious or nihilistic bully, nothing more. But, regardless of how powerful or weak my character is, if I have the chance to face great risk and great danger, and overcome it through superior tactics, or at least help out my teammates through an act of sacrifice, that is how I may truly realize the heroic character. I utterly reject the idea that PCs need some kind of safe sandbox to play in lest their character development be cut short by some bad rolls. I maintain, on the contrary, that without the constant challenge and risk there is no real character development. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 30 2006, 04:34 AM
Post
#35
|
|
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
I don't fall into the "all dice as they fall" or the "fudge everything" camps. I generally will fudge die rolls to keep PCs alive if their situation is largely my doing. If the PCs are at fault for their situation (choosing to shoot their way into a facility, not bothering to talk with the gangers, etc.) then how the dice fall is how they are read.
I often use a screen IRL, but mainly to keep my notes hidden. Die rolls being hidden is a secondary concern and mainly only to keep NPC statistics invisible. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2006, 06:38 AM
Post
#36
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
I really, really don't like messing with the dice rolls. A GM has so many other options, as far as adjusting things on the fly. I can understand the temptation, though, to want to keep a well-developed character alive. On the other hand, that is kind of arbitrary (i.e. deciding who gets a break... and who doesn't). It can become favoritism if you're not careful. And it does create a game that has less of a sense of real danger.
I have less empathy for GMs who will fudge dice rolls to keep a "recurring villain" alive. I consider that cheating just as much as a player intentionally neglecting to fill in a box of damage. And again, the GM has so many other options - including the HOG rule - to keep a villain alive. If a villain surviving is vital to the plot, then reexamine the plot, and try to tweak it so that it is not so linear. If anything, the main villain dying earlier than expected can create an interesting ripple effect. Former subordinates vying for control, a squad of suicidal assassins that only the boss knew how to contact, a rival crime boss taking the opportunity to move into the power vacuum, etc. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2006, 07:46 AM
Post
#37
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 22-January 06 Member No.: 8,189 |
I do fudge some die rolls yet my players have always been intelligent and sought cover and done their best to avoid fire fights. I don't make my players immortal but I don't want them to go down like puds. I understand the never fudge crowd, I just choose to disagree.
Neither I nor my players play shadowrun to figure out what's better, anouther point of ballistic or anouther reaction, we're more in it for the story. If it fits the flow of the game that a PC goes down (like they decided to throw down with some of the uber-drones in the arcology) so be it. But personally I would have thought Gladiator would have sucked if Maximus had gotten taken out by a random arrow when he was charging the barbarians in the first battle. Now you guys may take that as a way to teach the PCs to carry a shield, and that's cool. For me if I'm in a game where my character is getting killed every other session or so (and I've been in plenty of those games) I'd rather spend my time playing paintball, halo, or currently Battlefield 2, and my PCs agree. If you're having fun playing your way have at it. I can see the appeal, I just get tired of making dozens of PCs due to bad luck or the GM sending us up against guys toting LMGs with APDS all the time. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2006, 04:42 PM
Post
#38
|
|
|
Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
I will admit I fudge rolls, however I think I have good reasons for it.
I'm currently running two games. The first is made up almost completely of newbies, none of whom had ever heard of SR before six months ago (it's online, so slow posting rate), most of whom still have never touched an SR book. They're learning the ropes. They have no idea how things are supposed to work. So my intention is not so much to run a 'by the skin of your teeth' game, but a game where each run teaches them how to fine tune their skills for future adventures. As such, I think a little lee-way to either keep them alive (but smarting!) after a tumble or to put them in more... 'educational' positions are worth while. That doesn't mean I'll protect them from certain stupidity, just that they have a little more leeway to play in. The other game is of professionals. As I said, I run games online. Waiting on dice rolls sucks, so I do them all myself. Generally I leave them where they lie, but I will fudge if I feel it adds to the drama. For instance, in melee combat, I won't let the fight go on for eight rounds, I'll push things so it finishes up in four. I think it's more exciting than waiting around. Silly rolls I gloss over (okay, roll to break into the blue-4 system...) And when a chance of one die might shift the adventure in a much more exciting direction, with some consideration, I do it (for either side. I always forget NPC karma pool, so I guess it's fair in that regard). But again, my focus isn't on combat, but on story, so the rolling is rarely very important. |
|
|
|
|
Feb 1 2006, 07:06 PM
Post
#39
|
|||
|
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
We're not talking "a great height", we're talking about a climb to the second story. Since all falls are (meters)D damage, it's possible to kill yourself by tripping over a curb. I think that's overkill, definitely not much fun, and deserves to be fudged on if it happens. In any event, a critical failure can also mean that your safety gear failed. If I went by strict dice rolls, the character would be dead, no matter what safety measures he took. With one fudged die roll, however, instead he can be at a Serious, dangling over a precipice. Simply killing the character ends the game-- and the fun-- for that player. Instead, we can add drama and tension by fudging a roll and bending a rule. In my mind, drama and tension and fun beats out boredom, hands down. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 1 2006, 07:34 PM
Post
#40
|
|||
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I agree that that's overkill. Fortunately, so does SR3: p46 of Shadowrun Companion states that a 21 meter fall is the minimum distance that will do D damage. A five-meter fall will do at most M. In an amazing moment of organization, the cutoff points for damage levels are nearly to the SR3 main book method for determining the damage of a collision—speed is replaced with distance and divided by 10. ~J |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 1 2006, 07:36 PM
Post
#41
|
|||
|
Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
Thats one hella bug curb if you can even mange to get anything close to even 1D, so hey, theres an idea! anything less than 2 meters, barring special circumstances, no damage from the fall! Special circumstances being like landing directly on your head, even at 6 feet, i'm not sure if that would neccessarily kill you. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 1 2006, 07:38 PM
Post
#42
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
By canon, a one-meter fall is 1L. Fairly realistic—people who are unlucky or particularly vulnerable can indeed be injured, if not seriously, by such a fall. A two-meter fall, of course, is an even deadlier 2L!
~J |
|
|
|
|
Feb 1 2006, 07:48 PM
Post
#43
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
Recently there was a guy who hit his head on the sidewalk and went into a coma, he was in a fight and get knocked down, but it was the hitting the sidewalk that really did it. This happened a few weeks ago in DC, in the adams morgan area. Treat that as you may, but some people sometimes just can get seriously hurt even from a fall that's really close, and hitting one's head on a curb can be serious.
edit: Aye, agree with Kage. All the people gotta do is botch their resistance to damage. voila. you have something that can simulate somewhat with real life... I guess. |
|
|
|
|
Feb 1 2006, 07:57 PM
Post
#44
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 91 Joined: 27-June 05 From: FL, USA Member No.: 7,468 |
I have to admit that I fall about where Kozbot is on this issue. I respect GMs who don't ever mess with the dice and think that can be an interesting style of play, but it just doesn't work for me and my players. I don't often fudge die rolls, in fact I am far more likely to leave them be then not, but with a gaming group that just doesn't meet that often, I am not going to let one fluke of bad luck ruin a character or a situation which we are having fun with. If we played more often it might be a different story, the players would have a chance to cycle through characters that died on a more frequent basis. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 1 2006, 09:53 PM
Post
#45
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Re curbs, I think it is worth pointing out that even very short falls can injure someone, leading to a fractured bone in the wrist or hand. Even if you don't like the falling damage, the logical thing is not to arbitrarily fudge it every time it comes up, but rather to do some research and rewrite the rules so they're more rational.
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 1 2006, 10:11 PM
Post
#46
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Someone I know broke their collar bone walking the dog. They were standing and the dog took off in another direction tripping the person with the leash. When they fell with their feet held together by the leash, and then only had one arm to brace the fall because the other was trapped in the leash handle. They stiff-armed the ground and the collar bone snapped.
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 1 2006, 10:35 PM
Post
#47
|
|
|
Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
My grand dad fell and had a heart attack.
Or maybe it was the other way around. |
|
|
|
|
Feb 1 2006, 10:43 PM
Post
#48
|
|||
|
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
That's basically what I do. No matter what the dice say, I'm not going to hand out an instant death result because of a bad roll. I'll punish player stupidity, but bad luck is another thing entirely. I can create a much more entertaining game by using bad rolls to add to the player's fun, instead of ending it. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 2 2006, 02:54 AM
Post
#49
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 247 Joined: 28-November 04 Member No.: 6,852 |
I personally feel that bad rolls which result in a character's death add to the game. The same goes for NPCs.
For instance, people in real life die all the time, right? Perhaps they failed their driving test, and hit a tree. Or perhaps they failed the perception test needed to notice that their house was on fire, and died of carbon monoxide poisoning. Or they might have failed their damage roll after tripping and falling, and hitting their head on a curb. Think about all the people you hear about in real life, who die from things far more simple, or more stupid. Death happens, sometimes unexpectedly. Deal with it. |
|
|
|
|
Feb 2 2006, 06:54 AM
Post
#50
|
|
|
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
So do colds. When was the last time you afflicted a PC with the flu?
Shadowrun characters aren't normal people. They're meant to be larger than life. Heck, what fun is it to play a guy who leads a boring, mundane, everyday life? That doesn't mean that PC's deserve to have a special glow, but they do get to be in the spotlight. The goal of a game is to have fun. Constantly rolling up characters due to bad luck is not fun, at least in my experience. |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 2nd January 2025 - 10:49 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.