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Serbitar

Feb 9 2006, 12:12 AM

Post #126

Running Target

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QUOTE (Brahm @ Feb 8 2006, 11:31 AM)

Oh, there is the problem you dufus. Fragmentation grenades, not HE grenades. I didn't even notice you aren't using fragmentation munitions, grenades or rockets, in your examples. :eek:

You were using the same as RAW rules, except the dubious extra net hit part, and declare that it comes out fine. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

QUOTE (Serbitar)

DV: 10 AP: -2 Nethits: 1
(standard grenade)
vs:
ballistic: 9 Impact: 7 Body: 10
(troll with armour jacket)

with: flechette (+2 DV/+Impact = fragmentation grenade)

I get an average (and average means trading 3:1 not 4:1) of 5.66 physical for the troll.
(DV = 10(grenade)+2(flechette) +1 (nethits) = 13; armour = 7 (impact)-2(grenade)+7(flechette) = 12; DV > armour = no conversion; body 10;
13-22/3 = 5.66)

now with the helmet and against the rocket:

DV: 14 AP: -3 Nethits: 1
(standard rocket)
vs.
ballistic: 11 impact:9 Body: 10

with: flechette (+2 DV/+Impact = fragmentation rocket)

Iget 8.66 physical.
(DV = 14(rocket)+2(flechette) +1 (nethits) = 17; armour = 9 (impact)-3(grenade)+9(flechette) = 15; DV > armour = no conversion; body 10;
17-25/3 = 8.66)

No I have NOT. I added +impact to AP and +2 to DV, to transform HE grenades into frag grenades. READ it. Calculate it.

But I give up. You dont get it. Im not going to waste my time with people to stupid to read or understand what they have red. And I refuse being insulted and called dufus by such a person. Sorry, but thats one of the most ridiculous things i have ever seen.

Brahm

Feb 9 2006, 12:34 AM

Post #127

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (Serbitar @ Feb 8 2006, 07:12 PM)

No I have NOT. I added +impact to AP and +2 to DV, to transform HE grenades into frag grenades. READ it. Calculate it.

Oh, I get it. You just didn't bother to write down your rules for rockets and grenades that you are suppose patch over the AP from the HE version, unlike how RAW handles it. Your use the word appropriate and expect people to guess that to it means something completely different? Mind you that doesn't explain where the -3 AP for the rocket is coming from?

EDIT So you are saying that fragmentation grenades are suppose to be +2DV/(-2+Impact)AP ?

And you are still including the net hit. :please:

Serbitar View Member Profile	Feb 9 2006, 09:12 AM Post #128
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534	No, Im saying that flechette is +2DV/+Impact As grenades have 10DV/-2AP, frag grenades have 12DV/+Impact-2. I clearly wrote that down in my SHP. And thats my final statement. As I said before, everything else can be calculated by the .xls .ods sheets I gave. It is balanced against itself, I like how it works with penetration, you dont. Thats it.

Brahm

Feb 9 2006, 01:01 PM

Post #129

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (Serbitar)

No, Im saying that flechette is +2DV/+Impact
As grenades have 10DV/-2AP, frag grenades have 12DV/+Impact-2. I clearly wrote that down in my SHP.

Clearly? Um, there are no regular grenades. :wobble: You certainly don't say specifically which grenade to apply it to. It certainly isn't clear where the -3 for rockets/missles comes from. Or people are suppose to dig that bit of information out of the spreadsheet?

Ya, no need to say anymore. :dead:

hyzmarca View Member Profile	Feb 9 2006, 01:17 PM Post #130
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	On the issue of the realism of conversion to stun I respectfully submit the North Hollywood Shootout . Those guys weren't albino gnomes.

Brahm View Member Profile	Feb 9 2006, 02:58 PM Post #131
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006	What would they have been wearing in SR terms? About rating 16 balistic, or higher? Although after taking as many hits as they did the outer layers would have not been working as well.

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Feb 9 2006, 03:31 PM Post #132
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	If I understood the situation correctly, once SWAT got there with their assault rifles, they could easily penetrate the robbers' armor -- apparently, Phillips' spine was severed by a front-angle shot from a 5.56x45mm rifle. Since 16 points of Ballistic armor would reduce the average AR shot vs. a Bod 3+ target to 1 DV + additional successes, it doesn't seem likely they were wearing the equivalent of that. If you went by just the convert to stun silliness, then they'd have to have been ~6 points or less of Ballistic. On the other hand, if you went by shotguns in SR4, then they would have to have worn closer to Ballistic 20, since they were apparently impervious to those.

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Feb 9 2006, 03:42 PM Post #133
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	If falling down from getting shot has little to nothing to do with kinetic energy or momentum, then does that mean a pain editor should help prevent knockdown?

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Feb 9 2006, 04:23 PM Post #134
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	I don't even know how the Pain Editor is described in SR4, but I'd assume it kicks in somewhere in the higher regions of the CNS, most likely in the brain. If that is the case: perhaps a little, in the same way that it should reduce penalties from Physical damage. AFAIK, part of the knock-down effect is on the conscious level, on thinking that when you're shot you're supposed to fall down in pain, or the "I can't believe you shot me!" thing, as well as actually realizing you're in serious pain. But much of it likely depends on how your nerves in the area that is hit react, and what your spine tells, or doesn't tell, the rest of the body it should do before any information gets as far as your brain. What the exact relation of these two are, I haven't a clue.

Azralon

Feb 9 2006, 05:25 PM

Post #135

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

I don't even know how the Pain Editor is described in SR4

QUOTE (SR4 @ p340)

The editor is a cluster of specialized nervous tissue designed to filter sensory stimuli. As long as the pain editor is active, the user can ignore the injury modifiers of Stun damage and will not fall unconscious when the Stun damage reaches its maximum. The subject feels no pain and is unaware of the extent of damage taken without examining herself or being informed by a biomonitor (see p. 329). While active, the pain editor provides a bonus of +1 to the user’s Willpower attribute, but reduces her Intuition by 1 point (never below 1). Additionally, all tactile Perception Tests receive a dice pool modifier of –4.

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Feb 9 2006, 06:12 PM Post #136
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	Ah, so it's still the same as it was in Man & Machine. The functioning of the CNS is not really my specialty, so I've no idea how far up such a cluster would be implanted. If it's implanted above the brain stem, then I'd imagine it would be of less use in combating knockdown from small arms than if it's somewhere around or below the medulla oblongata.

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Feb 9 2006, 06:28 PM Post #137
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	An excellent point. The body does a fair amount of "talking to itself" outside of the brain. More than you'd expect. We know that tactile perception tests are penalized by the pain editor, even though touch and pain are generally carried by different nerves. We also know that balance and dexterity are not affected. Yes, most of this comes from your inner ear and brain, but much of it comes from feedback within the muscles & nerves, too. So wherever these clusters of nerves are, they're above the body's own feedback, but below conscious perception. So, when you get shot and take tissue damage, muscles will still spasm, your body chemistry will react, lots of noise in the sensory parts of your nervous system, etc, but you'll be blocked from perceiving it. This still removes most of the psychological effects of being shot, but not necessarily all, and the body's own feedback will still be reacting normally. I'd say that's justification enough to keep the knockdown rules as they are.

Shrike30

Feb 9 2006, 11:20 PM

Post #138

Runner

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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

If I understood the situation correctly, once SWAT got there with their assault rifles, they could easily penetrate the robbers' armor...

My understanding of the MOI that killed the two robbers is a little different than yours. One died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head. The other was brought down by nearly point-blank shots fired into his lightly- or un-armored feet and legs underneath a car by a SWAT officer (I can't remember what type of weapon was used), and died noticeably after the shooting had stopped from blood loss... the officers on the scene voiced concerns that he might be "booby-trapped," and so EMT's/Paramedics were kept away from him until after his death.

Asides from the armored vests and helmets they were wearing, the robbers had armored the rest of their bodies by cutting up other vests and turning them into arm and leg protectors. Probably pretty hard to move around in. The closest I could come to describing this in SR4 terms would be Full Body Armor with a helmet.

It's worth noting that neither 9mm handgun ammunition or 00 buckshot (the two primary types of ammunition used against the robbers) have any real chance of penetrating even fairly light modern body armor, especially at the kind of ranges most of the shooting was happening at (easily inside of assault rifle range, well outside of effective ranges of a handgun or a shot-loaded shotgun). Had the LAPD been in the practice of carrying rifles in their vehicles at the time (a change which I'm pretty sure this incident sparked), that firefight would have been over fairly quickly. While the image of a bank door surrounded with police cars 40-50 yards away with officers propping their shotguns over the tops of their car hoods is impressive, it also says something about the level of familiarization the officers have with their weapons... they're too far away from their target area to actually do much with them.

Austere Emancipa...

Feb 9 2006, 11:45 PM

Post #139

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (Shrike30)

One died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head.

I read a few articles on the shooting -- the one linked above, one on CNN, and the one on Wikipedia, I think -- and at least one mentioned that the person who shot himself in the head was also shot through the spine at about the same time.

QUOTE (Shrike30)

Asides from the armored vests and helmets they were wearing, the robbers had armored the rest of their bodies by cutting up other vests and turning them into arm and leg protectors.

That is how I understood it as well. I wonder how many level III-A ballistic panels you've got to stack on top of each other to stop an M855 at, say, 2800fps? Somehow I doubt 2 would be enough, or even 3.

Shrike30

Feb 10 2006, 12:10 AM

Post #140

Runner

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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

at least one mentioned that the person who shot himself in the head was also shot through the spine at about the same time.

It's certainly possible. A round could have made it through the front of the vest, weakened by multiple impacts, or slipped in over the top of a plate where the protection isn't as good, or come in at an odd angle (like into the armpit), or simply gone through a gap below the helmet but above the armor. Body armor doesn't make you invulnerable, just makes it harder to hit you in a way that'll hurt you.

As for piling on layer after layer of kevlar to stop rifle bullets, well... you'd think they'd just use more kevlar (instead of steel or ceramic plates, which are noticeably heavier) if they could make a lesser weight/bulk amount of kevlar do the same job.

My understanding of the event is that while the police obtained assault-type rifles from a nearby firearms dealer, the firefight was over before they were put to use. It's interesting trying to weed out something resembling the truth from all of the versions of this event that exist. :)

Austere Emancipa...

Feb 10 2006, 12:51 AM

Post #141

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QUOTE (Shrike30)

[...] or slipped in over the top of a plate where the protection isn't as good [...]

It was my understanding that they did not wear any form of rigid armor, that it was simply flexible vests cut up into various protective bits. If they wore level III or IV plates front and back, then you could certainly say they were wearing an equivalent of Ballistic 16 or more.

QUOTE (Shrike30)

[...] you'd think they'd just use more kevlar (instead of steel or ceramic plates, which are noticeably heavier) if they could make a lesser weight/bulk amount of kevlar do the same job.

That's kind of what I was getting at, though I realize now that that part of the message only makes sense if you start from the same assumption as me that the robbers had no rigid armor. Without some source for rigid protective plates, which are pretty hard to come by for a civilian, any significant level of protection against even the lightest of rifles is very hard to achieve, while it doesn't take a whole lot to make yourself impervious to most handguns.

Shrike30 View Member Profile	Feb 10 2006, 12:54 AM Post #142
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98	I was unaware that it was hard to get Class IV plates as a civilian. I know there's a couple of manufacturers who won't sell to civilians, but there's others who will.

hyzmarca View Member Profile	Feb 10 2006, 10:17 AM Post #143
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	NIJ level IV protection is just a google search away. http://www.tacticalshop.com/index.asp?Page...PROD&ProdID=159 I also found other stores but far too many of them didn't give a rating for their plates and one sold 'previously deployed' gear. I wouldn't trust a used vest as far as I could throw it because you never know if it was just 'used' or if it was 'used'. Notice that the plate has a 20 hit capacity but only if the grouping is wider than 12 centimeters. It would only take two full bursts to render it nonfunctional in SR terms. Also, it isn't rated to stop tungston carbide core projectiles and a quick google search shows that a 194 grain 7.62x51mm WC round can penetrate a class IV trauma plate at 350 meters and more powerful calibers can penetrate at greater than 500 meters. http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/infantry/hug.pdf Forget APDS, use WC cored bullets instead.

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Feb 10 2006, 12:42 PM Post #144
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	As a rule, APDS ammunition uses a tungsten carbide projectile, or sometimes DU if you're talking about cannons instead of HMGs. I cannot think of any modern steel APDS rounds. NIJ level IV is tested against the old .30-06 M2 full-caliber steel armor piercing round, which means modern armor piercing rounds like the full-caliber tungsten carbide M993 and M995 NATO rounds is quite likely to penetrate it, as may newer steel core AP rounds such as the Russian 7N13 7.62x54mmR. The smallest existing APDS round in common use, the .50 BMG M903 SLAP, obviously doesn't concern itself with body armor. Seems I remembered wrong about the availability of rigid armor, it's quite easy to acquire as a civilian in most states. In my defense, I never have nor is it likely that I ever will set foot on US soil. :)

hyzmarca

Feb 10 2006, 01:08 PM

Post #145

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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

Seems I remembered wrong about the availability of rigid armor, it's quite easy to acquire as a civilian in most states. In my defense, I never have nor is it likely that I ever will set foot on US soil. :)

The UK too. :rotate:

Austere Emancipa...

Feb 10 2006, 01:18 PM

Post #146

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QUOTE (http://www.stoppa.co.uk/acatalog/Ballistic_Plates.html)

[...] rated lower than NIJ level III. [...] Stops also 5.56 x 45 FMJ Nato Ball with lead core and all lower assault / hunting rifles with a vest backing including ALL handgun projectiles. [...] Does NOT stop metal cored 5.56 x 45 SS109 bullets.

Uhh, OK. I personally wouldn't buy anything off these people.

For all I know, such armor might even be available in Finland. In any case, I doubt the civilian market for rigid body armor is very big. ;)

Shrike30 View Member Profile	Feb 10 2006, 07:05 PM Post #147
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98	I'll be honest, I may be part of that market. I've been looking at the possibility of a Class IIIA vest with drop-in Class IV plates for a while now as a personal purchase, and the closest I get to needing one is looking for work as an EMT at the moment (IE, really really unlikely). One of those "It'd be good to have if I needed it, and I'd feel dumb if I needed it and didn't have it" kind of things, like fire insurance for your house.

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Feb 10 2006, 08:04 PM Post #148
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	I wouldn't touch that with a 10' thermic lance. :)

Shrike30 View Member Profile	Feb 10 2006, 10:26 PM Post #149
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98	Keep your lance away from my house! :P The current futzing with Stick-n-Shock I'm looking at is making it an ammunition type only available as a shotgun shell. Any thoughts? This post has been edited by Shrike30: Feb 11 2006, 12:11 AM

hyzmarca View Member Profile	Feb 11 2006, 02:28 AM Post #150
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	The North Hollywood Shootout clearly shows us that heavy armor is not the answer. As an EMT going into potentially dangerous situations you should learn from the mistakes of the bank robbers. Move quickly and have a good disengagment plan. Disengaging safely is far more important than defeating your foes, who could call for backup. To this end, it would be use to carry shock weapons such as teargas and white phosphorus grenades which you can deploy to quickly neutralize your attackers and discourage persuit while you disengage.

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