 House Rules, Ammo questions |
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 Feb 1 2006, 10:56 AM
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#26
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398  |
Actually, I'm pretty sure most of these are supported by the rules. A missile launcher loaded with fragmentation ammo can take out the better part of a brick house, 20mm minigrenades are as effective as hand grenades, and HE grenades have the same AP as HE rockets. |
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Feb 1 2006, 12:35 PM
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#27
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Target Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 9-January 06 Member No.: 8,143 |
Not that the "realism" discussion sin't interesting, but don't any of you people rule these things looking at game balance?
It's clear to just about anyone that the current ammo rules are no good: Normal Ex-rounds are cheaper, more readily available, and just as good in all respects as APDS. ExEx-rounds is a better armor piercing tool than APDS. Flechette rounds are ALWAYS better than regular rounds (which isn't too bad a tradeoff imo, they cost a bunch more) When comparing the diffrent values of ammo, keep in mind that 1DV equals -3AP (on avarage, three dies generate one hit, right?) With this in mind has anyone drawn up some balanced ammo rules for me to use? |
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Feb 1 2006, 12:43 PM
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#28
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
That just shows the designers are lazy and not interested in logic. Regardless of how effective explosive substances become, if one explosive device is less than 1/5th the volume and mass of another, it is less powerful. Whether you fill the 20mm grenade launcher rounds and hand grenades with gunpowder, dynamite, C-4, thermobaric explosives, or fictional überexplosives, the much more massive hand grenade will always be more powerful. I meant these fictional über-40mm grenades penetrating armor as well as current real-world LAWs.
Assuming something like a TBG-7V thermobaric rocket for the RPG-7 except 4 times more powerful, it should be capable of demolishing two-story concrete housing and have a lethal radius (regardless of most forms of body armor) of about 15-20 meters in the open. |
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Feb 1 2006, 01:08 PM
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#29
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Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 29-January 06 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 8,210 |
Ok from what I am reading it is pretty obvious that we have some pretty intelligent and knowledgeable people on this subject.
So I have something to propose while I am working on the house rules I posted above and checking their results. I would like to see a proposed Ammo guide from those who are willing to do it based on that AP and DV are calculated separately. (AP is rolled first and if successful, then DV is applied from Ammo) Also availability and prices are also important in the SR4 universe so please add you thoughts in on this, has great RP value. Feel free to add in Hallow Points, FMJs, Diakote or anything else you come up with to the present Ammo that is in SR4, but I would like to see it under the guidelines above. I understand that in RL they maybe one in the same but for game purpose for the house rules I am working on I would be interested to see the results from people who seem to be well versed on Ammo and Weapons. Looking foward to seeing your ideas. Deadjester |
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Feb 1 2006, 01:37 PM
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#30
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
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Feb 1 2006, 03:57 PM
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#31
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
This was even more true in previous editions, when a shuriken could easily produce a Deadly wound (or more, depending if you used the "overdamage" optional rules) with only modest skill behind it. And yeah, an adept with... what was it called, Throwing Mastery or something?... could easily pull a Bullseye and kill people with peanuts and paperclips. But hey, he paid for the abilities, so I'm willing to give him that. I'm okay with highly-skilled shadowrunners slaying dragons by shooting them in one eye and out the other; it's standard (super)hero fare. SR4 actually curbed some of that down to more realistic levels. Note I didn't say "realistic." I said "more realistic." :) |
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Feb 1 2006, 04:30 PM
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#32
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Isn't AP -5 over the top? By pushing up the power of this special ammunition you start running into the PAC and even rockets and missles. I would recommend bringing the APDS back down to -4 and either removing the double explosive rounds or something else. A full doubling of impact armour for flechette/buckshot seems a bit over the top too.
No and no. The lack of risk of a Glitch exploding them in your face is worth something. What exactly is a hard number to assess, but it is there. If you are just worried about being able to penatrate armour APDS is still better than Explosive, and the equal of ExEx. ExEx does more damage, but it also does more damage if you Glitch. I have personally rolled a Glitch with 12 dice. I had already included Edge in the roll so I couldn't undo the Glitch. Fortunately I did roll a single hit so it wasn't a Critical Glitch, and I wasn't shooting. But if I had been shooting Ex or ExEx that would have hurt, especially since the character already had 4 boxes of Physical and a low body. |
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Feb 1 2006, 04:39 PM
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#33
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
@Serbitars House-rule Package
If you want me to use that, which I am not going to for various reasons, why do you have all that justification text cluttering it up? Joe Friday said it best, "All we want are the facts, ma'am". |
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Feb 1 2006, 06:16 PM
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#34
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Do the math. -5AP is worse than +2DV. Doubling the impact armour ONLY then brings the flechette back in line, when you also use the physical to stun conversion rules. If you dont do this, you should even triple the impact armor. Just do the calculations and you will see. I guarante you that from a mathematical point of view, everything is very well balanced with my changes. Furthermore: Exex is a better amour piercing tool than APDS in every situation. Do the math. Second: The chance to roll a critical glitch with 8 dice (about the number of dice a standard runner will roll) is less than 0.4% With 12 dice it gets less than 0.001%.Chances are negligable. In addition a critical glitch will normal ammo will bring you in comparable trouble. I dont want you to use it. Why should I? And btw, you can see that I should even give more "justifications" in your inital post. |
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Feb 1 2006, 06:33 PM
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#35
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Huh? Please reread my post. I suggested getting rid of the +2DV ExEx entirely. Flechette is another problem entirely, but you keeping the +2DV there doesn't make much sense at all. The real world problem with flechette ammunition is it doesn't do as much damage. EDIT Flechettes real world advantage is that it penetrates light personal armour very well. You set up the exact opposite. Handling fragmentation and buckshot the same as flechette also is a braindead holdover from previous versions.
Another problem, you are changing so many things around including things I see little need to for my uses. Still I don't see anywhere that you changed how PAC or rockets work, except for the fragmentation rockets. Please don't ask me to do math if you don't first read. |
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Feb 1 2006, 06:40 PM
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#36
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
You are even proposing more changes than I do. (Removing ExEX, severey changing flechette . . .).
But the question of importance is: Is my ammo system balanced against itself? And the answer is "mathematically yes". If you dont like it as a whole, dont use ist. If you have a better overall system, post it. If you have suggestions how to alter mine, post them. If you have only negative criticism with no ideas how to fix the weak points, better keep to yourself. |
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Feb 1 2006, 07:03 PM
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#37
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
That is a more general comment. Like changing karma costs for Attributes and Skills. Doing that means that allowing karma built characters I have to change other parts of my game too, which makes BP characters incompatable? BeCKs didn't do that.
Just within the ammo modifications you make, maybe. But you are exaspertating a problem that is already there by pushing up the AP on the APDS. Same thing with flechette. You are taking the wierdness that is there and exasperating it. Why not at least drop it to +1DV? That is not such a huge change? A better change yet though is 0/+2AP, and extra die to hit. That way it works better against unarmoured targets, and it does what flechette and buckshot is ment to do. Increase the chance to hit. Give fragmentation grenades, rockets, and missles +1DV and +2AP or +3AP. Once again better against no armour, similar against lightly armoured, and much poorer against hard armour. |
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Feb 1 2006, 07:19 PM
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#38
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
How do gel rounds and ExEx fit in this? How does this fit to the "flechette is devestating against unarmored but useless against armored targets" description?
You cant just change one ammo type. If you do, you have to balance all the existing ammo types (regular, flechette, explosive, exexplosive, gel, stichnshock, apds). Why is +1DV/+3AP poorer against heavily armored targets? +1DV/+3AP cancels out in the standard rules. Its armor independant. |
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Feb 1 2006, 07:38 PM
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#39
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
ExEx is innane, as has been covered in this thread extensively. Gone. Gel I didn't do yet. I'll think about it a bit and get back to you.
It still does work better against unarmoured opponents. It does do poorer against armoured opponents unless you have a really crappy chance of hitting them to start with. It fits fine, as long as you don't let your imagination run wild while reading that line. Of course taking a hit within a few meters from a fully choked shotgun is a horrific thing. But that goes back more to the weapon damage.
Against hardened armour it is decidedly poorer. I didn't mention heavy armour. But since you mention it, against personal armour +3AP is poorer if they use Edge. They likely aren't going to roll Edge with their Amour unless they have lots of dice, meaning that unless they have a huge Body they aren't going to see the benefit until they are wearing fairly heavy armour. Funny, I didn't intend that. |
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Feb 1 2006, 07:43 PM
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#40
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
If you really feel the need to include ExEx, just make it +1DV/0AP. Still worse than APDS except against light armor.
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Feb 1 2006, 07:47 PM
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#41
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Another good move is to drop the APDS moniker and just make it AP (Armor Piercing). As covered well by Austere Emancipator discarding sabot doesn't really work in small caliber weapons.
You could then have a couple of grades, -3 AP and -4 AP. They are going to eventually come out with some funky new ammunition in the supplement that also makes little sense. So you might as well get ready for it now. :) A grade of -2 AP would have its uses too. It would be more like a premium grade of commercial ammunition instead of full on military/law enforcement. |
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Feb 1 2006, 07:52 PM
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#42
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The Matrix is in wide use today, but without the silly 3D metaphores (except in games, of course). Augmented reality is commerically available today, albiet rare and expensive. Simsense is commercially available today, albiet in a limited form that requires primitive cyberware. There is already a company making flying cars for private use. FAA restrictions and fuel efficiency problems keep them off the ground. These still havn't been fixed with T-birds. DNI computing isn't commercially avilable but you can do it yourself if you happen to be a neurosurgeon. It doesn't work well but it does work. Extraterritoriality is the only silly part and that is a result of judicial activism on the US Supreme Court. Judicial Activism is discouraged but it does happen. When it is the Supreme Court making the political revisions there isn't really anything anyone else can do. |
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Feb 1 2006, 08:59 PM
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#43
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
That is where I was going with using it in normal slugs. They are still harder than copper jacketing, however I didn't realise they were that much softer than tungsten carbide. Thanks for the info.
Cost is going to be an issue inconvincing someone to put in a large order for general use. A single slug with 100 grain of pure osmium in it would cost about $500 just for the metal. :) The self sharpening quality of DU you mention could be useful in very specialized ammunition. Cost and toxicity are going to keep it from general use, but with improvements and wider availability of personal armor by SR time there might be very elite squads, say bodyguards for AAA executives, that have it special made. Definately not something you would pick up at the Stuffer Shack or mail order in a gross of boxes. EDIT Useful for penetrating thicker armor and environmental obstacles, like engine blocks, traffic light posts, schools, etc. :) |
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Feb 1 2006, 09:30 PM
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#44
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Apart from schools, penetrating which is obviously a matter of caliber and not of projectile type, tungsten carbide can already do all that. There is no body armor available today (or being developed that I know of) which can reliably stop the M993 round at close range. NIJ level IV, the highest ballistic protection rating commonly used, is only rated to defeat steel core AP rounds, like the venerable .30-06 M2 AP. And, again, I wouldn't be so sure that DU would actually penetrate body armor any better.
If this elite squad is facing a probable threat of heavily armored vehicles while only armed with small arms (up to and including shoulder arms in 12.7x99mm and similar calibers), then going for DU wouldn't be completely insane. Just highly unlikely. |
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Feb 1 2006, 09:35 PM
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#45
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Highly unlikely is about the best your can hope for in Shadowrun. So that sounds like a winner!
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: |
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Feb 1 2006, 10:05 PM
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#46
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
The next time a game pipes it's silly 3d metaphors into my brain, and trying to log into the wrong part of a corporate site results in a biofeedback loop that tries to kill me, I'll let you know. I'm aware of the Internet (otherwise, I probably wouldn't be posting here).
The closest i've seen to AR is some of the technical tools you can get for mechanics work and the like, which is basically a HUD on an eyepiece that lets you call up things like technical specs. I'm still waiting to play Dream Park.
Define "limited"... i don't see emotive tracks piping into my brain for entertainment, or Strange Days style recording gear floating around.
Flying cars are based on two commonly available pieces of tech... namely, cars and planes. Vectored-thrust fly-by-wire armored bricks in the sky are a little further out there.
Are you talking about some of the experiments into using brainwaves to try and operate a simple flight sim or run a speech device, or "It'd be faster for me to just think up this Word document than try and type it" DNI, because that's not even getting into the whole consensual-hallucination-Matrix deal, and we don't have it yet.
Yeah, that doesn't seem all that sane to me, either. Saying we've got the basis of some of the tech seen in shadowrun is like saying the horse and buggy was the basis for hybrid cars. There's some truth in it, and the changeover did only take a little over a century, but a lot of stuff happened in between. |
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Feb 4 2006, 01:27 AM
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#47
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Target Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: 20-January 06 Member No.: 8,184 |
Normal Rounds..: +0 DV (vs. ballistic) Gell....................: +0 DV, Stun damage (vs. impact) Flechette...........: +2 DV. Double impact armor (vs. impact) Armor piercing...: +0 DV, Halve ballistic armor then subtract 2, to a minimum of 0 (vs. ballistic). *Explosive...........: +0 DV (vs. impact). *EX-Explosive......: +1 DV (vs. impact). Stick-n-Shock.....: 5S(e) damage, Halve impact armor (vs. impact). * Critical glitches are bad with these. Check the BBB for more details. This is what I came up with after a few hours of number crunching. Check it out. It keeps in theme with what the ammo was intended to do (i.e. each ammo type has it's own niche to fill). I came up with the above values by first determining what the goal of each ammo type was, then making the math fit it. Normal rounds: Yeah, you know what it is already. Pros: It's cheap. Cons: Not as good as any as the other ammo. Gell: Less lethal rounds. Flechette: The best ammo choice effective against unarmored and lightly armored targets. Actually ends up doing less damage than even normal rounds against heavilly armored targets. Armor Piercing: The round punches through armor. It's effectiveness increases relative to all other types of ammunition as the target's armor increases. It's the best ammo choice against moderately to heavilly armored targets. Explosive: Generally slightly more effective than regular ammo. This doesn't really shine, but it's still kinda cheap. EX-Explosive: Generally slightly more effective than explosive ammo. It's always the 2nd best ammo choice for any situation. Stick-n-Shock: Turn your gun into a taser. EDIT: After checking out the prices, I think the only change that needs to be made is flechette dropping to 70 nuyen per ten rounds. And here's some examples of ammo types vs. various armors using my modified values for the ammo types... I didn't include Gel, explosive, and stick-n-shock for simplicity's sake:
For comparison I added a table containing examples using the current rules for ammo in the SR4 book (below). As you can see, EX-Explosive ammo greatly outshines all others, always, and flechette ammo is a close second. APDS is only slightly better than normal ammo. The whole thing makes no sense when compared to the fluff for the damage types. Having EX-Explosive ammo be the best for everything, and Flechette better at high armor targets than APDS goes against the concept's for the ammo types. Also, APDS rounds are innefective for damaging hardened armor (i.e. high force spirits).
Here's Serbitor's ammo values plugged into my chart:
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Feb 4 2006, 02:04 AM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 140 Joined: 26-July 05 From: Calgary Alberta, CANADA Member No.: 7,519 |
I want to know exactly how "Ex-Ex" ammo works anyway. How does the round know when to detonate which charge, also, how do they isolate the charges to create a "Duplexing" effect?
I refer to them by who-what now? I just broke down cost and availability according to categories. Pistols/SMGs Carbines/Assault Rifles/LMGs GPMGs/Sniper Rifles/Rifles HMGs/Anti-Material Rifles Grenade Launchers Rocket & Missile Launchers Payload Delivery Rifle Systems
I know you weren't in the military for sure now. You don't get through Basic without learning your way around a bloody mop. :P |
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Feb 4 2006, 02:06 AM
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#49
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Target Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: 20-January 06 Member No.: 8,184 |
Yeah, if you want to learn how to clean stuff, join the Marines.
EDIT: Umm... is anyone noticing my balanced ammo chart? |
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Feb 4 2006, 04:10 AM
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#50
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i've always pretended that explosive ammo isn't actually explosive. remember that 'blended metal ammo' crap that made the rounds a few years back? how it supposedly retained its integrity if it hit something that tried to deform it (like kevlar), but broke into chunks when it hit something soft (like flesh)? that way, you'd get the penetration of FMJ with the salsafying effect of a frangible round. it sounded like crazy bullshit to me... but it fits pretty well with the effects of EX and EX-EX ammo in SR. EX and EX-EX both penetrate armor better, and both do more damage (or, rather, make the damage harder to soak, which is the same thing). EX is the cheap stuff, and EX-EX is the good stuff. edit: er, well, shit. the explanation fit in SR3. i'd have to check the SR4 stats to see if it fits there... and i don't wanna. |
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