House Rules, Ammo questions - Dumpshock Forums

House Rules, Ammo questions

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Feb 1 2006, 09:30 PM Post #44
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	Apart from schools, penetrating which is obviously a matter of caliber and not of projectile type, tungsten carbide can already do all that. There is no body armor available today (or being developed that I know of) which can reliably stop the M993 round at close range. NIJ level IV, the highest ballistic protection rating commonly used, is only rated to defeat steel core AP rounds, like the venerable .30-06 M2 AP. And, again, I wouldn't be so sure that DU would actually penetrate body armor any better. If this elite squad is facing a probable threat of heavily armored vehicles while only armed with small arms (up to and including shoulder arms in 12.7x99mm and similar calibers), then going for DU wouldn't be completely insane. Just highly unlikely.

Brahm View Member Profile	Feb 1 2006, 09:35 PM Post #45
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006	Highly unlikely is about the best your can hope for in Shadowrun. So that sounds like a winner! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Shrike30

Feb 1 2006, 10:05 PM

Post #46

Runner

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QUOTE

The Matrix is in wide use today, but without the silly 3D metaphores (except in games, of course).

The next time a game pipes it's silly 3d metaphors into my brain, and trying to log into the wrong part of a corporate site results in a biofeedback loop that tries to kill me, I'll let you know. I'm aware of the Internet (otherwise, I probably wouldn't be posting here).

QUOTE

Augmented reality is commerically available today, albiet rare and expensive.

The closest i've seen to AR is some of the technical tools you can get for mechanics work and the like, which is basically a HUD on an eyepiece that lets you call up things like technical specs. I'm still waiting to play Dream Park.

QUOTE

Simsense is commercially available today, albiet in a limited form that requires primitive cyberware.

Define "limited"... i don't see emotive tracks piping into my brain for entertainment, or Strange Days style recording gear floating around.

QUOTE

There is already a company making flying cars for private use. FAA restrictions and fuel efficiency problems keep them off the ground. These still havn't been fixed with T-birds.

Flying cars are based on two commonly available pieces of tech... namely, cars and planes. Vectored-thrust fly-by-wire armored bricks in the sky are a little further out there.

QUOTE

DNI computing isn't commercially avilable but you can do it yourself if you happen to be a neurosurgeon. It doesn't work well but it does work.

Are you talking about some of the experiments into using brainwaves to try and operate a simple flight sim or run a speech device, or "It'd be faster for me to just think up this Word document than try and type it" DNI, because that's not even getting into the whole consensual-hallucination-Matrix deal, and we don't have it yet.

QUOTE

Extraterritoriality is the only silly part and that is a result of judicial activism on the US Supreme Court. Judicial Activism is discouraged but it does happen. When it is the Supreme Court making the political revisions there isn't really anything anyone else can do.

Yeah, that doesn't seem all that sane to me, either.

Saying we've got the basis of some of the tech seen in shadowrun is like saying the horse and buggy was the basis for hybrid cars. There's some truth in it, and the changeover did only take a little over a century, but a lot of stuff happened in between.

Angelstandings

Feb 4 2006, 01:27 AM

Post #47

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Normal Rounds..: +0 DV (vs. ballistic)
Gell....................: +0 DV, Stun damage (vs. impact)
Flechette...........: +2 DV. Double impact armor (vs. impact)
Armor piercing...: +0 DV, Halve ballistic armor then subtract 2, to a minimum of 0 (vs. ballistic).
*Explosive...........: +0 DV (vs. impact).
*EX-Explosive......: +1 DV (vs. impact).
Stick-n-Shock.....: 5S(e) damage, Halve impact armor (vs. impact).

* Critical glitches are bad with these. Check the BBB for more details.

This is what I came up with after a few hours of number crunching. Check it out. It keeps in theme with what the ammo was intended to do (i.e. each ammo type has it's own niche to fill). I came up with the above values by first determining what the goal of each ammo type was, then making the math fit it.

Normal rounds: Yeah, you know what it is already. Pros: It's cheap. Cons: Not as good as any as the other ammo.
Gell: Less lethal rounds.
Flechette: The best ammo choice effective against unarmored and lightly armored targets. Actually ends up doing less damage than even normal rounds against heavilly armored targets.
Armor Piercing: The round punches through armor. It's effectiveness increases relative to all other types of ammunition as the target's armor increases. It's the best ammo choice against moderately to heavilly armored targets.
Explosive: Generally slightly more effective than regular ammo. This doesn't really shine, but it's still kinda cheap.
EX-Explosive: Generally slightly more effective than explosive ammo. It's always the 2nd best ammo choice for any situation.
Stick-n-Shock: Turn your gun into a taser.

EDIT: After checking out the prices, I think the only change that needs to be made is flechette dropping to 70 nuyen per ten rounds.

And here's some examples of ammo types vs. various armors using my modified values for the ammo types... I didn't include Gel, explosive, and stick-n-shock for simplicity's sake:

CODE

Defender's Resist Adj = relative to baseline (normal ammo) assuming 1 DV is equivalent to 3 dice

T is Types of ammo:
- = normal ammo
F = Flechette
X = Ex-Explosive
A = Armor Piercing

vs defender's 4/0 armor:
T DV Armor (DV*3)-Armor   Base Adj *-1 Defender's Resist Adjustment
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- +0 4 --> (0 * 3) - 4 = (-4 +4)*-1 = 0 baseline
F +2 0 --> (2 * 3) - 0 = (+6 +4)*-1 = -10 dice
X +1 0 --> (1 * 3) - 0 = (+3 +3)*-1 = -6 dice
A +0 0 --> (0 * 3) - 0 = (+0 +4)*-1 = -4 dice

vs. defender's 8/6 armor
T DV Armor (DV*3)-Armor Base Adj *-1 Defender's Resist Adjustment
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- +0 8 --> (0 * 3) - 8 = (-8 +8)*-1 = 0 baseline
F +2 12 --> (2 * 3) - 12 = (-6 +8)*-1 = -2 dice
X +1 6 --> (1 * 3) - 6 = (-3 +8)*-1 = -5 dice
A +0   2 --> (0 * 3) - 2 = (-2 +8)*-1 = -6 dice

vs. defender's 11/10 armor
T DV Armor (DV*3)-Armor Base Adj *-1 Defender's Resist Adjustment
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- +0 11 --> (0 * 3) - 11 = (-11 +11)*-1 = 0 baseline
F +2 2o --> (2 * 3) - 20 = (-14 +11)*-1 = +3 dice
X +1 10 --> (1 * 3) - 10 = (-7 +11)*-1 = -4 dice
A +0 4 --> (0 * 3) - 4 = (-4 +11)*-1 = -7 dice

vs. defender's 17/14 armor
T DV Armor (DV*3)-Armor Base Adj *-1 Defender's Resist Adjustment
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- +0 17 --> (0 * 3) - 17 = (-17 +17)*-1 = 0 baseline
F +2   28 --> (2 * 3) - 28 = (-22 +17)*-1 = +5 dice
X +1 14 --> (1 * 3) - 14 = (-11 +17)*-1 = -6 dice
A +0    7 --> (0 * 3) - 7 = (-7 +17)*-1 = -10 dice

EDIT: If it looks confusing at first, just read the values from left to right, there's four for each ammo type... ignore the math part. For example: against a target with 17/14 armor, with the attacker using Armor Piercing ammo, the defender get's armor is reduced to 7 for purposes of penetration, and he rolls 10 less dice on the resist test than he would have if attacked with normal ammo (the baseline).

For comparison I added a table containing examples using the current rules for ammo in the SR4 book (below). As you can see, EX-Explosive ammo greatly outshines all others, always, and flechette ammo is a close second. APDS is only slightly better than normal ammo. The whole thing makes no sense when compared to the fluff for the damage types. Having EX-Explosive ammo be the best for everything, and Flechette better at high armor targets than APDS goes against the concept's for the ammo types. Also, APDS rounds are innefective for damaging hardened armor (i.e. high force spirits).

CODE

[B]Rules as Written for ammo types:[/B]

vs defender's 4/0 armor
T DV Armor (DV*3)-Armor Base Adj *-1 Defender's Resist Adjustment
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- +0 4 --> (0 * 3) - 4 = (-4 +4)*-1 = 0 baseline
F +2 2 --> (2 * 3) - 2 = (+4 +4)*-1 = -8 dice
X +2 2 --> (2 * 3) - 2 = (+4 +4)*-1 = -8 dice
A +0 0 --> (0 * 3) - 0 = (+0 +4)*-1 = -4 dice

vs. defender's 8/6 armor
T DV Armor (DV*3)-Armor Base Adj *-1 Defender's Resist Adjustment
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- +0 8 --> (0 * 3) - 8 = (-8 +8)*-1 =   0 baseline
F +2 8 --> (2 * 3) - 8 = (-2 +8)*-1 = -6 dice
X +2   6 --> (2 * 3) - 6 = (+0 +8)*-1 = -8 dice
A +0   4 --> (0 * 3) - 4 = (-4 +8)*-1 = -4 dice

vs. defender's 11/10 armor
T DV Armor (DV*3)-Armor Base Adj *-1 Defender's Resist Adjustment
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- +0 11 --> (0 * 3) - 11 = (-11 +11)*-1 = 0 baseline
F +2 12 --> (2 * 3) - 12 = (-6 +11)*-1 = -5 dice
X +2   9 --> (2 * 3) - 9 = (-3 +11)*-1 = -7 dice
A +0 7 --> (0 * 3) - 7 = (-7 +11)*-1 = -4 dice

vs. defender's 17/14 armor
T DV Armor (DV*3)-Armor Base Adj *-1 Defender's Resist Adjustment
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- +0 17 --> (0 * 3) - 17 = (-17 +17)*-1 =   0 baseline
F +2 16 --> (2 * 3) - 16 = (-10 +17)*-1 = -7 dice
X +2 15 --> (2 * 3) - 15 = (-9 +17)*-1 = -8 dice
A +0 13 --> (0 * 3) - 13 = (-13 +17)*-1 = -4 dice

Here's Serbitor's ammo values plugged into my chart:

CODE

[B]Serbitor's Rules for ammo types:[/B]

(F)lechette......: +2DV (vs. 2x impact)
E(X)-Explosive: +2DV +1AP (vs. ballistic)
(A)PDS...........: -5AP (vs. ballistic)

vs defender's 4/0 armor
T DV Armor (DV*3)-Armor Base Adj *-1 Defender's Resist Adjustment
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- +0 4 --> (0 * 3) - 4 = (-4 +4)*-1 = 0 baseline
F +2 0 --> (2 * 3) - 0 = (+6 +4)*-1 = -10 dice
X +2 5 --> (2 * 3) - 5 = (+1 +4)*-1 = -5 dice
A +0 0 --> (0 * 3) - 0 = (+0 +4)*-1 = -4 dice

vs. defender's 8/6 armor
T DV Armor (DV*3)-Armor Base Adj *-1 Defender's Resist Adjustment
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- +0 8 --> (0 * 3) - 8 = (-8 +8)*-1 = 0 baseline
F +2 12 --> (2 * 3) - 12 = (-6 +8)*-1 = -2 dice
X +2 9 --> (2 * 3) - 9 = (+0 +8)*-1 = -5 dice
A +0 3 --> (0 * 3) - 3 = (-4 +8)*-1 = -3 dice

vs. defender's 11/10 armor
T DV Armor (DV*3)-Armor Base Adj *-1 Defender's Resist Adjustment
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- +0 11 --> (0 * 3) - 11 = (-11 +11)*-1 = 0 baseline
F +2 20 --> (2 * 3) - 20 = (-14 +11)*-1 = +3 dice
X +2 12 --> (2 * 3) - 12 = (-6 +11)*-1 = -5 dice
A +0 6 --> (0 * 3) - 6 = (-6 +11)*-1 = -5 dice

vs. defender's 17/14 armor
T DV Armor (DV*3)-Armor Base Adj *-1 Defender's Resist Adjustment
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- +0 17 --> (0 * 3) - 17 = (-17 +17)*-1 = 0 baseline
F +2 28 --> (2 * 3) - 28 = (-22 +17)*-1 = +5 dice
X +2 18 --> (2 * 3) - 15 = (-9 +17)*-1 = -8 dice
A +0 12 --> (0 * 3) - 12 = (-12 +17)*-1 = -5 dice

*Damage converted from physical to stun, due to high armor, is resisted with the modified standard armor rating (depending on the attack), pluss the full impact rating.

Eddie Furious

Feb 4 2006, 02:04 AM

Post #48

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Brahm)

The really screwy thing is that ExEx ammo is cheaper than armour piercing. Although if you roll a Glitch with ExEx ammo that is bad because a rounds jams or something and blows up in your face.

I want to know exactly how "Ex-Ex" ammo works anyway. How does the round know when to detonate which charge, also, how do they isolate the charges to create a "Duplexing" effect?

QUOTE (Brahm)

My GM did his own ammo number modification, and he refers to them by model numbers. I don't know exactly what the numbers are, I haven't asked because usually my character doesn't shoot things. Maybe I should ask him for them.

I refer to them by who-what now? I just broke down cost and availability according to categories.

Pistols/SMGs
Carbines/Assault Rifles/LMGs
GPMGs/Sniper Rifles/Rifles
HMGs/Anti-Material Rifles
Grenade Launchers
Rocket & Missile Launchers
Payload Delivery Rifle Systems

QUOTE (Brahm)

I assume they are at least a bit closer to current ammo, since he is ex-military. But then I haven't seen his dischange papers, so maybe he was just a janitor? He looks like a guy that knows his way around a mop. :D

I know you weren't in the military for sure now. You don't get through Basic without learning your way around a bloody mop.
:P

Angelstandings View Member Profile	Feb 4 2006, 02:06 AM Post #49
Target Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: 20-January 06 Member No.: 8,184	Yeah, if you want to learn how to clean stuff, join the Marines. EDIT: Umm... is anyone noticing my balanced ammo chart?

mfb

Feb 4 2006, 04:10 AM

Post #50

Immortal Elf

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QUOTE (Eddie Furious)

I want to know exactly how "Ex-Ex" ammo works anyway. How does the round know when to detonate which charge, also, how do they isolate the charges to create a "Duplexing" effect?

i've always pretended that explosive ammo isn't actually explosive. remember that 'blended metal ammo' crap that made the rounds a few years back? how it supposedly retained its integrity if it hit something that tried to deform it (like kevlar), but broke into chunks when it hit something soft (like flesh)? that way, you'd get the penetration of FMJ with the salsafying effect of a frangible round. it sounded like crazy bullshit to me... but it fits pretty well with the effects of EX and EX-EX ammo in SR. EX and EX-EX both penetrate armor better, and both do more damage (or, rather, make the damage harder to soak, which is the same thing). EX is the cheap stuff, and EX-EX is the good stuff.

edit: er, well, shit. the explanation fit in SR3. i'd have to check the SR4 stats to see if it fits there... and i don't wanna.

Angelstandings

Feb 4 2006, 04:16 AM

Post #51

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QUOTE (mfb @ Feb 3 2006, 11:10 PM)

edit: er, well, shit. the explanation fit in SR3. i'd have to check the SR4 stats to see if it fits there... and i don't wanna.

QUOTE (SR4 @ pg 312)

Explosive Rounds: Explosive rounds are solid slugs designed to fragment and explode on impact.

That's pretty much all the fluff we get in SR4. I'm of the mind that APDS should have the most armor piercing ability, and flechette should work the best against unarmored and lightly armored targets. Call me crazy...

mfb View Member Profile	Feb 4 2006, 04:24 AM Post #52
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	hah. with a creative enough interpretation of the word "explode"--for instance, if you drop a wineglass, it could be said to explode--my quasi-houserule fluff is canon.

Angelstandings View Member Profile	Feb 4 2006, 04:29 AM Post #53
Target Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: 20-January 06 Member No.: 8,184	The fluff strongly implies that all of the damage from the explosive round is caused by the explosion and fragments -- that the round doesn't even have time to deform from the impact.

Azralon

Feb 4 2006, 04:31 AM

Post #54

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (Shrike30)

Saying we've got the basis of some of the tech seen in shadowrun is like saying the horse and buggy was the basis for hybrid cars. There's some truth in it, and the changeover did only take a little over a century, but a lot of stuff happened in between.

Oh, well put.

Angelstandings View Member Profile	Feb 4 2006, 04:34 AM Post #55
Target Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: 20-January 06 Member No.: 8,184	Soon enough our military is going to have plasma based weapons (well, portable ones) that will render current armor technologies obsolete. I don't know what my point was, but I just wanted to say that ;)

mfb View Member Profile	Feb 4 2006, 04:41 AM Post #56
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	breaking into fragments is basically a type of deformation, when you're talking about bullets. or, at least, that's how i've always seen it.

Angelstandings View Member Profile	Feb 4 2006, 04:48 AM Post #57
Target Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: 20-January 06 Member No.: 8,184	Well, yeah :D The term deformation, when applied to bullets, refers to the change in shape of the bullet at anytime after the bullet starts travelling through the barrel. So you're technically correct. Heheh. What are we talking about again? Has anyone even looked at my balanced ammo chart?

Deadjester View Member Profile	Feb 4 2006, 04:54 AM Post #58
Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 29-January 06 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 8,210	Hey Angelstandings and thanks for working on that Ammo chart, we are almost finished on our first draft of house rules and your chart will be useful. We had a few ideas of our own and have worked out what I think is a interesting way for the armor to work without haveing to touch the stats on it and I am studying your chart now. One of our issues was how the same peice of armor would either make you laugh at hits or leave you high and dry if the enemy had a great roll and your dice fell asleep and left you as a splatter. So we have been looking for a happy medium. One of the ideas we came up with is that only the staging effect worked in the first phase of the AP penetration and the DV from Ammo and Various burst fires worked in the second stage. What ever Armor you were wearing would work as normal for penetration. But instead of rolling the armor rating for resist you would get a flat save of half the armors rating. ie... 8/6 would be 4/3 off the incoming damage. Then add what ever resist you have from body. We had it reversed but light pistols had such a low chance of damage. We also changed how body does resist though. We have never believed that body should be the bases for resist, the idea of a troll taking more damage then a blue whale is just crazy. So we give everyone a flat 6 for resist and the boxes on your damage chart are 10 + body. Less dice to resist with for high end but more boxes for the char to soak up hits with and make the damage conditioner in sets of 4 to reflect this. ( So Trolls can take more hits still and they have their natural armor but more in line we feel ) Con is you wont have the possability of rolling 8 sucesses but pro is your avg will be higher on damage mitigation. We havent play tested it yet but we have hopes it will hit that happy medium that we like. And again, thanks for taking your time to do that chart, I will be reviewing it for a bit for our game. :)

Angelstandings View Member Profile	Feb 4 2006, 05:01 AM Post #59
Target Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: 20-January 06 Member No.: 8,184	Well, whatever works for you guys :D I'd recommend changing as little as possible to get the desired effect you want since the more you change stuff, you increase the chance of breaking something else.

Deadjester View Member Profile	Feb 4 2006, 05:14 AM Post #60
Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 29-January 06 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 8,210	Aye, I hear ya. Everytime I change somthing I look at it like a chess game and think a few moves ahead and try to trace down all its effects befor I commit and the fourms here are a good sounding board. For the most part as long as you understand the theory behind their idea, its not to hard to try to mimic it but from another direction, but change one little game effect and some major issues have a way of sneaking in. I figure if I post what ever I am working on, I will get a chance to see what positive or negitive effects the readers give and do a revision from there if needed. But thanks again for your time.

Angelstandings

Feb 4 2006, 05:36 AM

Post #61

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QUOTE (Deadjester @ Feb 4 2006, 12:14 AM)

I figure if I post what ever I am working on, I will get a chance to see what positive or negitive effects the readers give and do a revision from there if needed.

Well, on that note, I should point out that I wasn't able to follow exactly what you came up with to change the way damage is handled. Could you explain it better?

EDIT: BTW I added a comparison chart (page 2 of this thread) that shows what the RAW ammo differences look like using the same math used to show my changed values. I hope that puts things into perspective.

Deadjester View Member Profile	Feb 4 2006, 06:36 AM Post #62
Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 29-January 06 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 8,210	Ya, I am not the best getting my ideas across typing but here it goes. =) I will try to take it step by step and explain where it differs from SR4. Set up. From the book, EX EX Ammo DV+2, AP-2, using a heavy pistol -1AP. Armor is 8/6 I will assign success shifts for sake of example. Combat: Agility+Skill vs Reaction = +4 Shift -3 (ammo + Hvy Pistol) to AP = 5 BAL. 5+4 = 9, we have penetration. 9+2=11 (9 + Ammo shift of 2) 11-3+2= 6 Damage to char. (half of Bal of 6 is auto sucuess of 3 + we roll a flat 6 dice instead of the old body rules) Char takes 6 damage. Char is a troll with a 12 body. (Our rules, 10+body, this troll has 22 boxes total. He is now 6 boxes down of his 22 and the condition modifiers are in sets of 4 which now puts him at -1 for all tests and he is now 2 boxes into his next set of 4. Also we give Troll a natural ballastic of 1 which I forgot to show but you get the picture, but it could affect the auto success if it had uped the bal to a even number and raised the auto success from 3 to 4 if it went well.) Hope I did better this time around explaining. We changed the way body resists work because we didnt believe in it as they did it. In the old system our Troll had as big a body as their blue whale did if not bigger. Resisting damage and being able to take more damage are two different issues. Trolls and humans are both flesh and blood and it was crazy that it would take a small nuke to take out our troll and if that didnt work it would still frag everyone near by. The present system stacks two seperate resists factors when it should be a resist factor combined with damage sustainable factor after the fact. So to try to reflect this and to stay within the system we added a flat 6 dice to roll combined with armor and upped the damage chars can handle to reflect that the chars no longer can resist damage as they once could at the higher end. Since they now have a few more boxes we shifted from a 3 conditioner box set to a 4 box set to reflect the change. The pros of this system is that it makes it much easier for a GM to set thresh holds on creatures and machines. Some things resist damage better then others and some things can handle damage better then others but don't resist to well. Like a troll vs a blue whale, put the same armor on both, they resist the same but the whale will handle alot more hits then the troll can from a hvy pistol. Same for some Helos, some have decent armor but cant handle much damage once penetraited. Or the A10, takes a licking and keeps on ticking, that plane can really take it. Whey I brought Ammo up, I wanted AP and DV to be reflected seperately so it could be managed easier but even though I am smart I still don't have the experience that many others do here when it came to the Ammo. So I asked for help here. =) I hope I did better this time around, let me know if I didnt and if you did understand what I said, let me know what you think. The changes are real easy for our players to deal with so should not be to much of a issue since they are not even use to SR4 yet. Deadjester

Angelstandings

Feb 4 2006, 07:06 AM

Post #63

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QUOTE

Armor is 8/6

I will assign success shifts for sake of example.

Combat:

1) Agility+Skill vs Reaction = +4 Shift
2) -3 (ammo + Hvy Pistol) to AP = 5 BAL. 5+4 = 9, we have penetration.
3) 9+2=11 (9 + Ammo shift of 2)
4) 11-3+2= 6 Damage to char. (half of Bal of 6 is auto sucuess of 3 + we roll a flat 6 dice instead of the old body rules)

Ok... let's see if I got this right:

1) attacker rolled 16 more dice than defender on opposed test -- simplified to 4 net hits.
2) we add attackers net hits to 5 base damage for the pistol get 9. Since 9 is greater than 8 (the original ballistic armor value) the attack penetrates.
3) Add in the ammo's DV value of 2, to get 11.
4) Subtract ammo's DV value from 11 to get 9 (haha), and then another 3 from it (I'm guessing those are the number of successes from the 6 dice the defender gets to roll to resist damage?) to get to 6 -- which is the amount of damage the defender recieves.

If I got this right, then in step 3 you've added an extra step when adding the ammo DV value, only to subtract it again in step 4. And: Why are we using 3 successes from 6 dice again? That would be a damn good roll.

Deadjester View Member Profile	Feb 4 2006, 07:48 AM Post #64
Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 29-January 06 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 8,210	No, not exactly. But disreguard my last post, the GM and I who are working on this has been over for a bit and we were talking over what you said and you inadvertently helped us realize that the GM and I had a miscommunication in our ideas on how to make this work. Befor I look any more stupid, let me finish working this out with him and I will send you a PM within a day or two and you can give me your thoughts then I will post it for others to review, if thats cool with you. Deadjester

Angelstandings View Member Profile	Feb 4 2006, 07:50 AM Post #65
Target Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: 20-January 06 Member No.: 8,184	Oh haha... Hey, whatever... I just like throwing ideas around :D

Shrike30 View Member Profile	Feb 4 2006, 09:18 AM Post #66
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98	My fixes were relatively simple to apply... i just add the DV mods after the round has checked to see if it goes through the armor or not, and if it gets stepped down from physical to stun, then after ALL the math, you divide in half (rounding up). This is for P damage bullets only.... knives, gel rounds, and whatever else didn't have this applied to them I also took out EXEX entirely and just made APDS Avail 12F.

Space Ghost View Member Profile	Feb 5 2006, 07:40 AM Post #67
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 129 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 400	@Angelstandings i like your chart, and i may lobby for its use in my game. Not sure about the APDS, though. The math is fine, but it feels a little choppy. Maybe an AP of -(half ballistic), minimum -3?

Mauler View Member Profile	Feb 5 2006, 11:57 PM Post #68
Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 2-January 06 Member No.: 8,120	Thanks for all the good advice... I intend to modify AP, but leave everything else alone: APDS: -half Explosive Rounds: +1 Ex-Explosive Rounds: +2 Gel Rounds: double Flechette Rounds / Shot Rounds: double I did some basic calculations and this should work for my game. Thanks again.

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