IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Area affect spells too big?
Kleaner
post Feb 2 2006, 07:47 PM
Post #1


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 66
Joined: 24-October 05
Member No.: 7,887



I'm thinking that one meter radius per force point is too much, and should be more akin to one meter diameter per force point...

Lets take an extreme but doable example....

A good mage with sorcery of 6, magic rating of 6, and lets say 6 other bonus dice from various other sources (power foci, totems, spirits) decides to cast a 12 force stun ball.

This ball has a radius of 12 meters, for a diameter of 24 meters. He has 18 dice to cast and decides to withold 8 dice to make the ball have a 20 meter radius. That's a 40 meter diameter.

Which is roughly a 8-9 story building about as wide as a baseball diamond, and he'd still have 10 dice left to pull it off. :eek:

Anyone think this is a bit much?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dashifen
post Feb 2 2006, 07:54 PM
Post #2


Technomancer
********

Group: Retired Admins
Posts: 4,638
Joined: 2-October 02
From: Champaign, IL
Member No.: 3,374



Yes, that's a bit much, but if someone's hauling out that type of firepower, it better be big. Especially considering that, as a magic user, their Body may be lower and, thus, if they screw the drain roll they could be nigh on to dead. The threat of physical wounds has been enough to limit overcasting craziness so far in my games, though that may not be the case for others.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Azralon
post Feb 2 2006, 07:56 PM
Post #3


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,651
Joined: 23-September 05
From: Marietta, GA
Member No.: 7,773



QUOTE (Kleaner @ Feb 2 2006, 03:47 PM)
A good mage with sorcery of 6, magic rating of 6, and lets say 6 other bonus dice from various other sources (power foci, totems, spirits) decides to cast a 12 force stun ball.

<snip>

Anyone think this is a bit much?

Well, I wouldn't just call him just "good." He's world-class, by merit of skill alone, and has some kickass bonuses from somewhere.

Oh yeah, and as Dash pointed out: Have fun soaking that drain. Ouchie, even for Mr. Best-of-the-Rest there.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TinkerGnome
post Feb 2 2006, 09:08 PM
Post #4


Dragon
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,138
Joined: 10-June 03
From: Tennessee
Member No.: 4,706



To be fair, he should have a specialization for another 2 dice. I mean, at that point, he's a world class combat mage.

At that point, however, there are some serious LOS issues. Sure, he can pop off a riot control stunball to end all stunballs at the risk of his own life, but how often is that useful to shadowrunners? It only hits those he can see that well.

Here's a question I don't know the answer to. How do you handle casting an AOE spell against opponents with multiple degrees of visibility?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Serbitar
post Feb 2 2006, 09:26 PM
Post #5


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,498
Joined: 4-August 05
From: ADL
Member No.: 7,534



answer:

SHP 1.4

(Section about pool reduction)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TinkerGnome
post Feb 2 2006, 09:35 PM
Post #6


Dragon
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,138
Joined: 10-June 03
From: Tennessee
Member No.: 4,706



QUOTE (Serbitar)
answer:

SHP 1.4

(Section about pool reduction)

That solution actually makes me shudder. I'd rather figure out what the various levels of dice are and then roll them in batches.

Ie, I'm throwing a stunball into a room with three guards. One is in the open, one has good cover, one has partial cover. I've got 10 dice for my roll. I roll a batch of 6 and then two batches of 2. The one in the open is affected by all the successes, the partial cover is affected by the first eight, and the other guy only by the batch of 6.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Raizer
post Feb 2 2006, 09:36 PM
Post #7


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 64
Joined: 7-July 02
From: NY
Member No.: 2,942



I've brought up the AOE spellcasting problem up on another thread. I too have decided to do it by adding visibility modifiers to the resistance test. It made the most sense and seems to fit well with the system.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Butterblume
post Feb 2 2006, 09:55 PM
Post #8


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,150
Joined: 19-December 05
From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex
Member No.: 8,081



QUOTE (TinkerGnome)
Ie, I'm throwing a stunball into a room with three guards.  One is in the open, one has good cover, one has partial cover.  I've got 10 dice for my roll.  I roll a batch of 6 and then two batches of 2.

Try using different colored dice or something like that. It's still one dice roll, and if you always use the same colors for good, partial and no cover, it's kind of a no brainer ;).

So, in your example, that could be 6 white dice for good cover, plus the two red dice for partial cover, and the two red and two blue ones for no cover.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
FrankTrollman
post Feb 2 2006, 10:13 PM
Post #9


Prime Runner
*******

Group: Banned
Posts: 3,732
Joined: 1-September 05
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Member No.: 7,665



I... just give characters bonus resistance dice when the pool would be reduced against them specifically. It saves a lot of time and heartache.

-Frank
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Serbitar
post Feb 2 2006, 10:18 PM
Post #10


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,498
Joined: 4-August 05
From: ADL
Member No.: 7,534



Thats exactly what I am proposing. But Im going further and do so even when testing against nothing (or the game world). Like a perception test. My gamers always roll their full pool, and I roll against it with the modifiers, so they never know how easy or hard it was to detect something if they didnt detect it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Butterblume
post Feb 2 2006, 10:18 PM
Post #11


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,150
Joined: 19-December 05
From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex
Member No.: 8,081



Which isn't always a good idea and in most cases more time consuming then rolling the different colored dice ;).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TinkerGnome
post Feb 2 2006, 11:00 PM
Post #12


Dragon
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,138
Joined: 10-June 03
From: Tennessee
Member No.: 4,706



I don't think you get the same probability curves out of the two methods, either. The short simulation I ran had odd things like the chance for a character to have negative successes or more successes than he should have had dice.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Serbitar
post Feb 2 2006, 11:19 PM
Post #13


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,498
Joined: 4-August 05
From: ADL
Member No.: 7,534



Negative hits are 0 hits. You cant get more hits than dice with this method.

Statistically rolling

A) 6 dice instead of 10
and
B) 10 dice and rolling 4 against

is slightly better for the latter one, because of the 0 round effect. If there were negative hits, the outcome would be exactly the same, but as negative hits are rounded to 0, the mean is slightly higher.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TinkerGnome
post Feb 2 2006, 11:27 PM
Post #14


Dragon
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,138
Joined: 10-June 03
From: Tennessee
Member No.: 4,706



No, you can get more hits than you should have had dice. Say you have 10 dice for your test and a 3 die penalty.

7 dice = max 7 hits
10 dice - 3 dice = max 10 hits
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Serbitar
post Feb 2 2006, 11:33 PM
Post #15


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,498
Joined: 4-August 05
From: ADL
Member No.: 7,534



Ah ok, thats what you mean.

Thats exactly the ammount that would statistically cancel out with the negative hits. If you want to fix this: Round down to the maximum number that "could" be achieved, just like you round negative hits to 0. Then the statistic outcome of both methods is exactly the same.

But those occasions (both negative and too many hits) are quite rare, so I dont care much about it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stevebugge
post Feb 2 2006, 11:34 PM
Post #16


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,026
Joined: 23-November 05
From: Seattle (Really!)
Member No.: 7,996



Another way to put that disgusting force 12 spell in to perspective:

A regulation NBA Court is approximately 29 Meters Long by 15 Meters Wide, the force 12 spell would cover almost the entire length of the court, and several rows in to the stands at Mid-Court if the spell were cast on the center of the court, and it would stretch to a high point somewhere over the top of the hanging scoreboard found in most arenas.

This is assuming the caster did nothing to adjust the size of the spell.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hobgoblin
post Feb 3 2006, 01:25 AM
Post #17


panda!
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,331
Joined: 8-March 02
From: north of central europe
Member No.: 2,242



im guessing the real issue here is the ability to do this out of char gen. a SR3 char would need to get hold of a force 12 spell first. not something he can do in char gen.

basicly, you would see similar AOE spells in SR3, in theory. only they would be much later in the game, if anyone botherd to learn that strong a spell.

now, doing that with a combat spell isnt that big a issue. doing it with a elemental spell, thats something else (that is, if the elemental maniputaltion spells still exist in SR4). that way you can burn down a building with a single spell more or less...

two versions where they try to cut back on the power of magic, and now this. i realy do wonder...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
FrankTrollman
post Feb 3 2006, 01:45 AM
Post #18


Prime Runner
*******

Group: Banned
Posts: 3,732
Joined: 1-September 05
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Member No.: 7,665



I'm really not sure what the big deal is. You can get Commercial Explosives right out of chargen, and burn down a whole building without sticking yourself with a crap tonne of physical drain in the process.

The ability to blast everything in a 12m radius sounds big, and in the context of whatever room you happen to be in I'm sure it's huge. But on a battlefield or city-wide scale, it just doesn't rate mentioning.

-Frank
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Brahm
post Feb 3 2006, 02:27 AM
Post #19


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,635
Joined: 27-November 05
Member No.: 8,006



QUOTE (Kleaner @ Feb 2 2006, 02:47 PM)
I'm thinking that one meter radius per force point is too much, and should be more akin to one meter diameter per force point...

Lets take an extreme but doable  example....

A good mage with sorcery of 6, magic rating of 6, and lets say 6 other bonus dice from various other sources (power foci, totems, spirits) decides to cast a 12 force stun ball.

This ball has a radius of 12 meters, for a diameter of 24 meters. He has 18 dice to cast and decides to withold 8 dice to make the ball have a 20 meter radius. That's a 40 meter diameter. 

Which is roughly a 8-9 story building about as wide as a baseball diamond, and he'd still have 10 dice left to pull it off.  :eek:

Anyone think this is a bit much?

To push it out that extra distance he just turned it from BBQ of death to feasibily survivable. Especially for anyone protected by Counterspelling.

On the other hand laying down a fireball that covers the better part of 1/2 a football field does seem excessive. The problem with the visual is about the force getting cubed to result in the volume. So what is range again? That whole thing fits in his magic range, right? I forget where that formula is.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
FrankTrollman
post Feb 3 2006, 02:54 AM
Post #20


Prime Runner
*******

Group: Banned
Posts: 3,732
Joined: 1-September 05
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Member No.: 7,665



QUOTE
So what is range again?


LOS for most offensive magic.

-Frank
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kleaner
post Feb 3 2006, 05:21 PM
Post #21


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 66
Joined: 24-October 05
Member No.: 7,887



QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Feb 2 2006, 09:45 PM)
I'm really not sure what the big deal is. You can get Commercial Explosives right out of chargen, and burn down a whole building without sticking yourself with a crap tonne of physical drain in the process.

The ability to blast everything in a 12m radius sounds big, and in the context of whatever room you happen to be in I'm sure it's huge. But on a battlefield or city-wide scale, it just doesn't rate mentioning.

-Frank

To blow up a building you'd need a u-haul filled with explosives, and drive it up to the building. A mage could do it naked. While you could get both of them as a starting character, which would be easier to do?

But regardless lets tone down the spell and say it's force 6. That's still a 12m diameter. That's a ball 35 feet wide or so. I live in a 4 bedroom two story house. It's about 2000 square feet. A 35X35' ball would engulf my house and part of the yard around it, as well as some of the airspace above it.

Slinging around force 6 spells is no big deal for starting characters, a mage could do it all day.

I think that when they decided to make everything metric, they just really didn't consider real world distances.

As a lot of runs happen indoors, the area the spells can hit seems a bit much.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hobgoblin
post Feb 3 2006, 05:28 PM
Post #22


panda!
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,331
Joined: 8-March 02
From: north of central europe
Member No.: 2,242



QUOTE (Kleaner)
To blow up a building you'd need a u-haul filled with explosives, and drive it up to the building.

while that would do so by sheer force, it would be much simpler to take a look at the blueprints of said building and find the main support pillars. more surgical but requires less explosives...

hell, that oklahoma bombing may have left the building standing if it was not for the proximity to a support pillar.

knowing a bit about what makes building stand up makes the job of knocking them back down so much easyer :smokin:
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Azralon
post Feb 3 2006, 07:05 PM
Post #23


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,651
Joined: 23-September 05
From: Marietta, GA
Member No.: 7,773



QUOTE (hobgoblin)
knowing a bit about what makes building stand up makes the job of knocking them back down so much easyer

Hence, the Demolitions skill.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stevebugge
post Feb 3 2006, 08:00 PM
Post #24


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,026
Joined: 23-November 05
From: Seattle (Really!)
Member No.: 7,996



QUOTE (Kleaner)
But regardless lets tone down the spell and say it's force 6. That's still a 12m diameter. That's a ball 35 feet wide or so. I live in a 4 bedroom two story house. It's about 2000 square feet. A 35X35' ball would engulf my house and part of the yard around it, as well as some of the airspace above it.

Slinging around force 6 spells is no big deal for starting characters, a mage could do it all day.

I think that when they decided to make everything metric, they just really didn't consider real world distances.

As a lot of runs happen indoors, the area the spells can hit seems a bit much.

Since I'm a colossal geek I made a spreadsheet for this the other day.

Force 6 Area effects spell, no alterations to size through dice pool:

Radius 6 Meters or 19.68 feet

Diameter 12 Meters or 39.36 feet, Kleaner is correct in pointing out that many city lots are only around 40' wide

Area at 'equator' 113.04 Square Meters or 1216.13 Square Feet, which exceeds the size of every apartment I've ever been in.

Volume of sphere 904.32 Cubic Meters or 31911 Cubic Feet, this is equivalent to 27 20' Shipping Containers

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dashifen
post Feb 3 2006, 09:14 PM
Post #25


Technomancer
********

Group: Retired Admins
Posts: 4,638
Joined: 2-October 02
From: Champaign, IL
Member No.: 3,374



QUOTE (Kleaner)
As a lot of runs happen indoors, the area the spells can hit seems a bit much.

Exactly, which is why most of the time a character is going to look for a precision hit with stun/mana/power -bolt rather than -ball. If you run the risk of injuring your comrades and perhaps dropping the building around you with a force 6 powerball, that seems like a good reason not to cast it. Same goes for toxic waves, fireballs, etc.

Hopefully, players who take such spells, as one of my has, also recoginze that their sheer destructive power is what actually limits their usefullness. In order to target them precisely you need to (a) remove dice from your pool to redice the radius of higher force spells or (b) cast the spell at a lower force. Between you and me, a force 1 powerball may not be that bad to deal with and the mage may lose enough dice reducing a force 4 or 5 down to a 1 or 2 meter radius that it's still not that bad.

Thus, nothing beats the non-area direct combat spells in flexibility, even if the area effect ones may provide more collateral damage. Besides, F12 stunbolts are only 5 DV on the drain (ah, love the -1!!). Earn some extra dice from fetishes, foci, etc. and watch your enemies crumble. Remember: once the mage knocks them out, the sammie can go around slittling throats. Saves ammo, too! :D
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 29th March 2024 - 01:40 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.