Area affect spells too big? |
Area affect spells too big? |
Feb 2 2006, 07:47 PM
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#1
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Target Group: Members Posts: 66 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,887 |
I'm thinking that one meter radius per force point is too much, and should be more akin to one meter diameter per force point...
Lets take an extreme but doable example.... A good mage with sorcery of 6, magic rating of 6, and lets say 6 other bonus dice from various other sources (power foci, totems, spirits) decides to cast a 12 force stun ball. This ball has a radius of 12 meters, for a diameter of 24 meters. He has 18 dice to cast and decides to withold 8 dice to make the ball have a 20 meter radius. That's a 40 meter diameter. Which is roughly a 8-9 story building about as wide as a baseball diamond, and he'd still have 10 dice left to pull it off. :eek: Anyone think this is a bit much? |
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Feb 2 2006, 07:54 PM
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#2
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Yes, that's a bit much, but if someone's hauling out that type of firepower, it better be big. Especially considering that, as a magic user, their Body may be lower and, thus, if they screw the drain roll they could be nigh on to dead. The threat of physical wounds has been enough to limit overcasting craziness so far in my games, though that may not be the case for others.
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Feb 2 2006, 07:56 PM
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#3
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Well, I wouldn't just call him just "good." He's world-class, by merit of skill alone, and has some kickass bonuses from somewhere. Oh yeah, and as Dash pointed out: Have fun soaking that drain. Ouchie, even for Mr. Best-of-the-Rest there. |
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Feb 2 2006, 09:08 PM
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#4
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
To be fair, he should have a specialization for another 2 dice. I mean, at that point, he's a world class combat mage.
At that point, however, there are some serious LOS issues. Sure, he can pop off a riot control stunball to end all stunballs at the risk of his own life, but how often is that useful to shadowrunners? It only hits those he can see that well. Here's a question I don't know the answer to. How do you handle casting an AOE spell against opponents with multiple degrees of visibility? |
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Feb 2 2006, 09:26 PM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
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Feb 2 2006, 09:35 PM
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#6
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
That solution actually makes me shudder. I'd rather figure out what the various levels of dice are and then roll them in batches. Ie, I'm throwing a stunball into a room with three guards. One is in the open, one has good cover, one has partial cover. I've got 10 dice for my roll. I roll a batch of 6 and then two batches of 2. The one in the open is affected by all the successes, the partial cover is affected by the first eight, and the other guy only by the batch of 6. |
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Feb 2 2006, 09:36 PM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 64 Joined: 7-July 02 From: NY Member No.: 2,942 |
I've brought up the AOE spellcasting problem up on another thread. I too have decided to do it by adding visibility modifiers to the resistance test. It made the most sense and seems to fit well with the system.
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Feb 2 2006, 09:55 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
Try using different colored dice or something like that. It's still one dice roll, and if you always use the same colors for good, partial and no cover, it's kind of a no brainer ;). So, in your example, that could be 6 white dice for good cover, plus the two red dice for partial cover, and the two red and two blue ones for no cover. |
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Feb 2 2006, 10:13 PM
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#9
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I... just give characters bonus resistance dice when the pool would be reduced against them specifically. It saves a lot of time and heartache.
-Frank |
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Feb 2 2006, 10:18 PM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Thats exactly what I am proposing. But Im going further and do so even when testing against nothing (or the game world). Like a perception test. My gamers always roll their full pool, and I roll against it with the modifiers, so they never know how easy or hard it was to detect something if they didnt detect it.
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Feb 2 2006, 10:18 PM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
Which isn't always a good idea and in most cases more time consuming then rolling the different colored dice ;).
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Feb 2 2006, 11:00 PM
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#12
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
I don't think you get the same probability curves out of the two methods, either. The short simulation I ran had odd things like the chance for a character to have negative successes or more successes than he should have had dice.
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Feb 2 2006, 11:19 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Negative hits are 0 hits. You cant get more hits than dice with this method.
Statistically rolling A) 6 dice instead of 10 and B) 10 dice and rolling 4 against is slightly better for the latter one, because of the 0 round effect. If there were negative hits, the outcome would be exactly the same, but as negative hits are rounded to 0, the mean is slightly higher. |
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Feb 2 2006, 11:27 PM
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#14
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
No, you can get more hits than you should have had dice. Say you have 10 dice for your test and a 3 die penalty.
7 dice = max 7 hits 10 dice - 3 dice = max 10 hits |
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Feb 2 2006, 11:33 PM
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#15
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Ah ok, thats what you mean.
Thats exactly the ammount that would statistically cancel out with the negative hits. If you want to fix this: Round down to the maximum number that "could" be achieved, just like you round negative hits to 0. Then the statistic outcome of both methods is exactly the same. But those occasions (both negative and too many hits) are quite rare, so I dont care much about it. |
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Feb 2 2006, 11:34 PM
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#16
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
Another way to put that disgusting force 12 spell in to perspective:
A regulation NBA Court is approximately 29 Meters Long by 15 Meters Wide, the force 12 spell would cover almost the entire length of the court, and several rows in to the stands at Mid-Court if the spell were cast on the center of the court, and it would stretch to a high point somewhere over the top of the hanging scoreboard found in most arenas. This is assuming the caster did nothing to adjust the size of the spell. |
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Feb 3 2006, 01:25 AM
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#17
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
im guessing the real issue here is the ability to do this out of char gen. a SR3 char would need to get hold of a force 12 spell first. not something he can do in char gen.
basicly, you would see similar AOE spells in SR3, in theory. only they would be much later in the game, if anyone botherd to learn that strong a spell. now, doing that with a combat spell isnt that big a issue. doing it with a elemental spell, thats something else (that is, if the elemental maniputaltion spells still exist in SR4). that way you can burn down a building with a single spell more or less... two versions where they try to cut back on the power of magic, and now this. i realy do wonder... |
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Feb 3 2006, 01:45 AM
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#18
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I'm really not sure what the big deal is. You can get Commercial Explosives right out of chargen, and burn down a whole building without sticking yourself with a crap tonne of physical drain in the process.
The ability to blast everything in a 12m radius sounds big, and in the context of whatever room you happen to be in I'm sure it's huge. But on a battlefield or city-wide scale, it just doesn't rate mentioning. -Frank |
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Feb 3 2006, 02:27 AM
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#19
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
To push it out that extra distance he just turned it from BBQ of death to feasibily survivable. Especially for anyone protected by Counterspelling. On the other hand laying down a fireball that covers the better part of 1/2 a football field does seem excessive. The problem with the visual is about the force getting cubed to result in the volume. So what is range again? That whole thing fits in his magic range, right? I forget where that formula is. |
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Feb 3 2006, 02:54 AM
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#20
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
LOS for most offensive magic. -Frank |
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Feb 3 2006, 05:21 PM
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#21
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Target Group: Members Posts: 66 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,887 |
To blow up a building you'd need a u-haul filled with explosives, and drive it up to the building. A mage could do it naked. While you could get both of them as a starting character, which would be easier to do? But regardless lets tone down the spell and say it's force 6. That's still a 12m diameter. That's a ball 35 feet wide or so. I live in a 4 bedroom two story house. It's about 2000 square feet. A 35X35' ball would engulf my house and part of the yard around it, as well as some of the airspace above it. Slinging around force 6 spells is no big deal for starting characters, a mage could do it all day. I think that when they decided to make everything metric, they just really didn't consider real world distances. As a lot of runs happen indoors, the area the spells can hit seems a bit much. |
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Feb 3 2006, 05:28 PM
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#22
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
while that would do so by sheer force, it would be much simpler to take a look at the blueprints of said building and find the main support pillars. more surgical but requires less explosives... hell, that oklahoma bombing may have left the building standing if it was not for the proximity to a support pillar. knowing a bit about what makes building stand up makes the job of knocking them back down so much easyer :smokin: |
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Feb 3 2006, 07:05 PM
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#23
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Hence, the Demolitions skill. |
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Feb 3 2006, 08:00 PM
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#24
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
Since I'm a colossal geek I made a spreadsheet for this the other day. Force 6 Area effects spell, no alterations to size through dice pool: Radius 6 Meters or 19.68 feet Diameter 12 Meters or 39.36 feet, Kleaner is correct in pointing out that many city lots are only around 40' wide Area at 'equator' 113.04 Square Meters or 1216.13 Square Feet, which exceeds the size of every apartment I've ever been in. Volume of sphere 904.32 Cubic Meters or 31911 Cubic Feet, this is equivalent to 27 20' Shipping Containers |
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Feb 3 2006, 09:14 PM
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#25
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Exactly, which is why most of the time a character is going to look for a precision hit with stun/mana/power -bolt rather than -ball. If you run the risk of injuring your comrades and perhaps dropping the building around you with a force 6 powerball, that seems like a good reason not to cast it. Same goes for toxic waves, fireballs, etc. Hopefully, players who take such spells, as one of my has, also recoginze that their sheer destructive power is what actually limits their usefullness. In order to target them precisely you need to (a) remove dice from your pool to redice the radius of higher force spells or (b) cast the spell at a lower force. Between you and me, a force 1 powerball may not be that bad to deal with and the mage may lose enough dice reducing a force 4 or 5 down to a 1 or 2 meter radius that it's still not that bad. Thus, nothing beats the non-area direct combat spells in flexibility, even if the area effect ones may provide more collateral damage. Besides, F12 stunbolts are only 5 DV on the drain (ah, love the -1!!). Earn some extra dice from fetishes, foci, etc. and watch your enemies crumble. Remember: once the mage knocks them out, the sammie can go around slittling throats. Saves ammo, too! :D |
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