Area affect spells too big? - Dumpshock Forums

Area affect spells too big?

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Kleaner

Feb 3 2006, 09:43 PM

Post #26

Target

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QUOTE (Dashifen)

Thus, nothing beats the non-area direct combat spells in flexibility, even if the area effect ones may provide more collateral damage. Besides, F12 stunbolts are only 5 DV on the drain (ah, love the -1!!). Earn some extra dice from fetishes, foci, etc. and watch your enemies crumble. Remember: once the mage knocks them out, the sammie can go around slittling throats. Saves ammo, too! :D

Exactly, which is why I'm thinking the drain value on the stun ball spell needs to be upped, and that the radius on spells in general needs to be toned way down.

Otherwise every npc team that comes after the party is going to have to have a mage, or a sniper, or other very nasty tricks up their sleave or they are going to get walked over.

Azralon

Feb 3 2006, 09:47 PM

Post #27

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (Dashifen @ Feb 3 2006, 05:14 PM)

Remember: once the mage knocks them out, the sammie can go around slittling throats. Saves ammo, too! :D

Yep. And Mind Probe works so much better on living targets.

Space Ghost View Member Profile	Feb 3 2006, 10:18 PM Post #28
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 129 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 400	Stunball, manaball and powerball only affect things you can see. Thus casting it inside an apartement building would produce some really weird effects. It's not just like a bomb that goes off. It's like a grenade, except it only effects those places that you can see. Manaball is pretty clear-cut, since you just need to count the living creatures that are both in the radius and within sight. But powerball would leave a very strange pattern of destruction. Everthing you can see would be all torn up, but the carpet on the other side of the couch would be prestine white because you can't see it. Imagine your eyes are a light source. Anywhere that a shadow is cast would be saved. At least the forensic guys would be able to tell exactly where you were standing when you cast. Probably your height, too.

Cold-Dragon View Member Profile	Feb 3 2006, 10:24 PM Post #29
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780	That's a clear discrimination against dwarves! ;) Fortunately, there's Levitate - just go to ceiling height and have at it, lol! But that is true, 'shadowed' area (sotospeak) would be save from the blast, although if I recall, mirrors are fair game when it comes to reflections, yes?

stevebugge View Member Profile	Feb 3 2006, 10:29 PM Post #30
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996	I think so, so don't stand in front of a mirror and cast powerball ;)

Azralon View Member Profile	Feb 3 2006, 10:52 PM Post #31
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773	Yes, mirrors let you bounce your LOS. That's why little pocket periscopes should be in every mage's inventory.

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Feb 3 2006, 11:08 PM Post #32
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	:notworthy: hmm, i think we need a smiley that covers the term groantastic :silly:

Darkness

Feb 4 2006, 02:36 PM

Post #33

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QUOTE (Space Ghost)

Stunball, manaball and powerball only affect things you can see.

AFAIK, that goes for every area spell, even fireball and the rest, because the restriction on visible targets for area spells (p. 173, Area Spells) isn't put out of effect for indirect combat spells.
A fireball only creates fire in the visible area, not behind cover, not around corners, only where the mage can see.

Serbitar View Member Profile	Feb 4 2006, 02:43 PM Post #34
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534	Not very logic. BTW: There is an SR3 remant in the description of changing radius of spells. Of course, withholding dice from the spellcasting test doesnt affect drain, as there is no spellpool anymore.

hobgoblin

Feb 4 2006, 03:36 PM

Post #35

panda!

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QUOTE (Darkness)

QUOTE (Space Ghost @ Feb 3 2006, 11:18 PM)

Stunball, manaball and powerball only affect things you can see.

AFAIK, that goes for every area spell, even fireball and the rest, because the restriction on visible targets for area spells (p. 173, Area Spells) isn't put out of effect for indirect combat spells.
A fireball only creates fire in the visible area, not behind cover, not around corners, only where the mage can see.

as in, the text in the book do specificaly say that a fireball works like a grenade rather then a normal area spell? if so, then its a big departure from the older versions...

Darkness

Feb 4 2006, 04:22 PM

Post #36

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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Feb 4 2006, 04:36 PM)

as in, the text in the book do specificaly say that a fireball works like a grenade rather then a normal area spell? if so, then its a big departure from the older versions...

Where in the book does it say, it works like a grenade?
Page 196, Indirect Combat Spells does only say what the mage has to roll to hit, and that a target can evade by using Reaction (+ any Doge variant), thats a ranged attack.
The descriptions of the different spells are equivalent so let's look specifically at a fireball:

QUOTE (SR4 @ p.197, Flamethrower, Fireball)

These spells create an explosion of flames that lash into existence and scorch the target(s). These spells deal Fire damage (see p. 155). These flames burn out after striking the target, but their secondary effects may ignite flammable materials that will continue to burn after the spell is exhausted.
Flamethrower is a single target spell, while Fireball is an area spell.

I agree that "create an explosion" can give the impression of an actuall explosion, but the "lash into existance" part says to me, that this explosion is "merely" a flash of fire. Flames that suddenly come into existance in the target area.
Nowhere it says, that the rules for explosives are used. If that where the case, the chunky salsa effect would be valid too.
The last sentence says "Fireball is an area spell".

Under Range (p. 195) it says "Other spells affect all valid targets within an area, defined as a circle with a radius equal to the caster's Magic in Meters (see Area Spell, page 173).

And under Area Spells (p. 173) it says: "All visible targets within the area are affected". Furthermore under "Step 3: Choose the Target(s)" it says: "A spellcaster can target anyone or anything she can see directly with her natural vision. [Addtionally with improvements paid with essence.]".

Hence only visible things and individuals are valid targets. A fireball is an area spell and can only hit valid targets, so a fireball isn't able to strike hidden targets.

I agree that this is a major difference to previous editions, and that it takes a bit of the "oomph" out of the fireball. But it also downscales the "overpowered" mage a bit.
They can still fry a group, but even mundanes can now dive for cover.

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Feb 4 2006, 05:21 PM Post #37
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	i used the term grenade to ilustrate that it can hit people behind cover as long as they are within the are of effect of the spell. not that it behaves like a grenade by the rules. as in, the mage lands a fireball spell inside a room, past the door. this should in SR3 affect anyone hiding to either side of the door as long as they have no cover between them and the "detonation" point of the spell. if this is no longer true in SR4 then fireballs and similar have realy lost a reason to exist, i may as well go powerball only and spend the rest of the points on something else... or maybe, more power to the summoner? summon a unbound spirit and tell it to trash everything inside the room. then sit back and watch. hell, i can now do more with a wellplaced grenade then i can do with magic...

Cold-Dragon

Feb 5 2006, 05:01 AM

Post #38

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One example of why the physical spells (such as a fireball) will hit a person no matter visibility is on...

195: Combat Spells

QUOTE

...Indirect Combat spells create an external damaging medium (often elemental in nature) that is used to attack the target.

That means there's something quite real and dangerous moving around in a space, evnen if you can't see the space, anyone/thing there will get hit by it.

Also....well, damn, this is awkward. I can't find a part in magic beyond that would legit the claim beyond the physics. O_o....

Am I missing it, or have quite a few of us been using implied meaning....? *feels bad now*

Cold-Dragon

Feb 5 2006, 05:13 AM

Post #39

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Well, I found another section that confirms direct spells work in the way expected, just not something that excludes or includes the physical, indirect spells. :P

167: On the Manipulation of Magic

QUOTE

...When the signal is received, it channels mana through the target to create a specified effect (thus Direct combat spells bypass armor, because they affect the target from within)...........Area-effect spells work roughly the same way, except that instead of sending the signal to one target, , the caster sends the signal out on multiple frequencies corresponding with the targets within the area of effect. If there are targets within the area the caster cannot see, they will not be affected.

I'll find something!!!!

Aku View Member Profile	Feb 5 2006, 01:40 PM Post #40
Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769	i'm sorry, but i have to go with the lines Darkness quoted above. It seems wonky, but if ya can't see what you're filling a room of fire with, ya can't hurt it.

Deadjester View Member Profile	Feb 5 2006, 01:54 PM Post #41
Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 29-January 06 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 8,210	It seems idiotic that its just not considered a burst of energy that is released and fills a set area reguardless if you can see it or not. Heck based on their logic might as well bring in the old boogie man rule, "If I can't see them they can't see me either" start walking around with a blankie while doing a run and throw it over your head if you see a caster and run by. Course that can go bad to as every one fights over the blankie or the one person who has it refuese to wash it casue its his good luck blankie

Cold-Dragon View Member Profile	Feb 5 2006, 09:08 PM Post #42
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780	It is a burst of energy, it deliberately states in the magic section that indirects spells create a medium of the energy. :P By that logic, it's a physical effect that will get you regardless. Of course, short of that, I never found anything to back up the logic rules-wise. -_- Wasn't there something for that in SR3 though? I always had that concept in mind when I learned the game, so I had to get it from there first...

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Feb 5 2006, 09:44 PM Post #43
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	SR3 had elemental manipulations, and there where by definition streams or areas of a elemental effect. hell, the non-area ones used more or less the same rules as firearms (flat target number, opponent being allowed to dodge and so on). ah, SR3 page 182, elemental manipulation spells. second paragraph... i find it strange that they should have changed all that for SR4... i dont recall what the SR2 books had to say about elemental area effects but i think they where somewhat similar. but then SR2 had that "nasty" groundig rule. SR1 i cant talk about as i joined late SR2...

Cold-Dragon View Member Profile	Feb 6 2006, 06:58 AM Post #44
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780	Don't forget they cut out the alternative to spirit fighting too, and at this point, that looks like it was a bad idea or else a big fluke. the definition of spells, in this regard, might have gone the same way. >.< Damn...

BGMFH View Member Profile	Feb 6 2006, 01:21 PM Post #45
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 403 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Kill Em All Member No.: 2,018	As of SR3, yes. No ruling in SR4 that IM aware of.

Azralon View Member Profile	Feb 6 2006, 03:09 PM Post #46
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773	Indirect combat spells are treated as ranged attacks, so my thinking on it is that you target a point in space and figure up the radius from there. That is to say, fireball will work around corners in my world. For that kind of drain? It had better.

FrankTrollman View Member Profile	Feb 6 2006, 04:46 PM Post #47
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665	Yeah, it's an open question whether the fact that an indirect combat spell works "like a ranged attack" (and thus allows a blind fire attack) trumps the fact that i is "LOS spell" (and thus does not). Both statements are absolutes and neither is listed as an exception to the other. However, it is logical to assume that the ranged combat rules are supposed to take precadence in this instance. -Frank

TinkerGnome View Member Profile	Feb 6 2006, 05:32 PM Post #48
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706	I'd let indirect AOE hit everyone in the radius (barrier dependant). I mean, it has a DV of (F/2)+5. A force 5 is going to hurt pretty bad, and a force 12 has a very real chance of killing a starting mage.

stevebugge View Member Profile	Feb 6 2006, 05:42 PM Post #49
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996	Ok on a slightly related note: Consider for a minute the Fireball Spell SR3 it is an elemental manipulation that creates fire. There is no indication that it is created with explosive force, but it creates a fixed volume of fire. SR4 it is a combat spell, that creates fire. Again no indication that it does so with explosive force, though it may not affect targets the caster cannot see in this version. Now suppose some mage decides to let off a force 6 Fireball (no adjustment to area of effect, yes I think we can agree that this mage is either fireproof or a moron) in the cafeteria of an office building. The cafeteria in question has a seating area that is 4m x 4m, a low wall (just over 1 m tall) separating it from a buffet area wich is 2.5m x 4m, behind the Buffet area is a wall separating the cafeteria from the kitchen. there are open arch doorways to the rest of the building on both walls of the cafeteria dining area, set just on the dining area side of the buffet/dining area separator wall. The ceiling of the cafeteria is a Meta-Freindly 3.5 meters high. The Force 6 fireball goes off with a 6 meter radius (904.32 cubic meters of fire) What gets torched? EDIT: The question is also what gets torched differently in various editions, and does the spell always produce the full volume of fire and would it spill/flow out in to surrounding unseen areas? Also how much like natural fire would magical fire behave (ie would it tend to rise etc.)

Azralon View Member Profile	Feb 6 2006, 06:51 PM Post #50
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773	The ball spells do homogenous damage within their area, as opposed to a true explosion that has a decreasing DV the further the target is from ground zero. This implies (to me) that they're not so much explosions as.... erm.... sudden "bubbles of damage." As such, no chunky salsa from Fireball. Which is a shame, as I do love a nice fire-roasted salsa.

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