 P or S which is better |
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 Feb 7 2006, 04:34 PM
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#21
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Prime Runner  Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665  |
-Frank |
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Feb 7 2006, 04:44 PM
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#22
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Nope, if either track is filled, they fall down and go night-night. |
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Feb 7 2006, 04:57 PM
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#23
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
It isn't the horrendous monster you make it out to be though. If you have enough armour to convert the damage to stun then you are going to normally taking less boxes of damage anyway. If someone purposely does less damage to you to try stun you with nomarlly lethal damage then they are doing less damage, and it won't be entirely out of wack with the different size of Physical and Stun tracks. Assuming that the Physical is even larger than Stun, which isn't always the case. All in all I consider it less of a game problem than having high armor more than halving the damage like you suggest. |
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Feb 7 2006, 05:59 PM
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#24
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
You are thinking the wrong way. The damage you get is the damage you get. Its doesnt matter that you get less damage when a conversion takes place, as you would get less physical damage if the conversion would not take place, too.
So the net difference is still the difference between the damage tracks. And, as a matter of fact, most combat monsters have at least 2 more physical damage boxes than stun. Thats enough to call it a serious logic flaw. |
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Feb 7 2006, 06:39 PM
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#25
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Target Group: Members Posts: 58 Joined: 4-September 03 Member No.: 5,581 |
I can understand why they used Willpower for the stun track when it is described as pain, disorientation, drowsiness, or whatever similar effects can occur as a result of injury. What I have never really understood is why the average Troll can only take as much bruising as the average human. I suppose you can argue that their much higher Body is what represents this, meaning that an attack that manages to damage the troll in spite of their Body must have been strong enough to damage them proportionately to a human receiving a similar injury, but it still bugs me.
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Feb 7 2006, 07:06 PM
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#26
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Your post? Yes! :D Let us go through an example to see why. Bob, with a Body of 5, takes a SA shot to the gut from a AK-97. The attacker only rolled one net hit, so that is 6P. If Bob is wearing Armored Clothing, rating 4/0 he takes Physical damage, and resists the damage with 9 dice. That will net him about 3 boxes of Physical damage. If Bob instead decided to wear the Armored Vest the damage would be coverted to Stun, and he would resist with 11 dice. Most times the result will be 1 box less of Stun damage, the average being in the neighborhood of 2 1/3 boxes. Slightly above that because while the average is 3 2/3 hits, some resist rolls will have more than 6 successes but still count towards the average as 6. Let us say Bob is a gutless, mage-bait wimp with only a Willpower of 2. That would give him a Stun track of 9. With his Body of 5 he has a Physical track of 11. Let us repeat the senario three of times, just using the average numbers. Not likely to happen, and we are leaving some things out, but just as an example. With the Armored Clothing Bob takes 3 * 3 boxes of Physical damage, so 9 boxes to leave 2 boxes remaining before he drops. With the Armored Vest on he takes 3 * 2 1/3 boxes for a total of 7 boxes of Stun. This also leaves him with 2 boxes remaining before he drops, and incidentally a smaller wound penalty. I am not taking into account the mounting wound penalities, or the likelihood that some shots Bob is hit with are going to exceed the Armored Vest rating and thus spread around the damage some. But even without those you can see that things are working out better for Bob when he wears the Armored Vest because: 1- He isn't squirting blood all over the place. 2- He has taken less boxes of damage, in this case giving him a smaller wound penalty. 3- He has just as many boxes of room left on his shortest track as he does when he is just wearing his chainmail underwear, or whatever the Armored Clothing is suppose to represent. EDIT Notice that if you apply your rule Bob would rarely take any Stun damage. |
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Feb 7 2006, 07:10 PM
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#27
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
The trick is to think of it being much harder to bruise the Troll, but once you do manage to hit him hard enough to leave a mark that mark hurts him just as much if not more than a Human. |
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Feb 7 2006, 07:13 PM
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#28
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
You're ignoring the completeness of the situation, though. You take fewer boxes of stun damage because you have more dice of armor to roll against the stun damage. It evens out for anything but the lowest cases where the DV is very close to the armor value. If the armor value exceeds the DV by 3 or more, then it's a non-issue. If I were going to adjust the value, I would reduce it by a fixed amount instead of halving it. Halving makes light pistol rounds just too weak. You could also apply half the damage as physical and half as stun. That'd level it out as well. |
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Feb 7 2006, 08:56 PM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 129 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 400 |
i don't think the point of this thread is "Which do you prefer, more armor or less?". It's "which type of damage do you prefer causing.?" Obviously having more armor will result in less boxes of damage. But choosing stun rounds over regular, or even flechette, seems to be a no-brainer. Unless you're a ganger, that is.
And an adept with killing hands gets to choose Physical or Stun. Which does he choose? Most likely stun. The amount of boxes will be exactly the same. |
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Feb 7 2006, 09:02 PM
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#30
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
I can indeed argue that. I'd prefer not to, though, especially since you got there on your own. |
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Feb 7 2006, 09:07 PM
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#31
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Akai Sokata openned up the whole topic in the first post. I was just trying to clear up a misconception that has built up, and I've seen it in a few other posts, that Trolls are better off stripping down to their skivvies to avoid getting knocked out. Wearing armor slightly above the base DV of the weapons you are likely to face is great for staying standing, because it tends to splitt any damage you take between the two tracks. Although you'll pile on the wound penalties before you are done. The walking tank syndrome of having mid-teens or higher armor rating has diminishing returns for remaining standing because nearly all the damage you do take gets funneled into Stun. However you still are likely better off because you will take less boxes in total. |
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Feb 7 2006, 09:18 PM
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#32
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
@Brahm @TinkerGnome Both of you are making a mistake. You are comparing less armour resulting in physical, wtih more armour, resulting in stun. Thats a simple armour effect. Less armour, more damage. But What I question is the conversion from physical to stun, not the fact that you get more damage with less armour. So, WITHOUT, the conversion rule, a troll with armour X can take Y damage before he drops, but he can take less damage before he drops WITH the conversion rule, because his stun damage track is smaller. Thus, the existance of the conversion rule makes the troll take less punishment than without. Im NOT questioning the fact, that WITH the conversion rule, he will maybe (depending on the damage) not drop earlier from stun, than from physical, because of the simple fact, that stun damage has to go through more armour to become stun damage. When you discuss the physical to stun rule, you have to keep all the other variables in place, otherwise you are mixing correlations. Thats why I say your reasoning is wrong and thats why I say that the conversion rule is unbalanced. The conversion rule should decreasethe impact of converted damage, not increase it.
Good thing. |
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Feb 7 2006, 09:33 PM
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#33
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
You see our reasoning as wrong because we are looking at the the results instead of you creating a hypothetical situation that cannot ever happen. You are assuming situation where for given gunshot damage that you can have Stun in one case and Physical in the other, but in both case the armor is the same. But there is no such situation. For it to switch from Physical there MUST be more armor from the one case to the next.
Once again you fail to take into consideration that the Troll will be able to remain conscious after being shot approximately the same number of times. In most cases the Troll will in fact remain conscious longer when wearing more armor. All you have managed to accomplish is to bring back the reign of the Troll Tank by making it even harder to damage them at all. If you work at it a wee bit harder maybe you can have the nostalgia kick of melee specialized Trolls whose technique is to close to attack and then casually drop a grenade at their feet without taking any damage themselves. EDIT Nevermind. You don't have to try, you are already there. Only it is even better this time around because any type of metahuman can do it with augmentation. If you want to do it without surgery though you'll still have to go Troll. Or maybe Orc. Or Adept. |
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Feb 7 2006, 09:36 PM
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#34
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
He is an unaugmented Human with less than peak Body that just got shot by an SMG and suffered no ill effects. In my estimation that is a very bad thing. |
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| Guest_MK Ultra_* |
Feb 7 2006, 09:47 PM
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#35
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Guests |
I house ruled that both damage tracks are determined by will, since I figured bod already does something against both stun and physical, donīt wanted bod to count double and wanted will to be involved with physical somehow aswell. I allso think this makes much more sense concerning physiology.
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Feb 7 2006, 09:58 PM
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#36
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Well, there are really three parts to this topic. You can't argue the less than armor => stun rule in the same breath as pure stun vs. pure physical. Here is the breakdown of the issue:
I agree that #3 clearly comes across in favor of electrical stun. #1 is also a slight edge for stun (a larger edge if the whole team goes for stun and can concentrate on just one damage track). #2 is where we are discussing the point. I believe that they two cases are relatively close together. If I decided to tweak it, I'd simply have the damage split between the physical and stun tracks. That retains the "don't get shot" fear for the players while at the same time making rounds with poor penetration less tactically effective (because the guy goes down slower). |
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Feb 7 2006, 10:02 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
Yes, it's easier to knock out a troll than it is to kill him.
Yes, it's roughly as easy to knock out a human as it is to kill him. But then logic jumps the rails and people start thinking it's easier to KO a troll than it is to kill a human, and that's just plain wrong. A human with a stun track 10 boxes long taking 2 points of stun damage each round will be KO'd in 5 rounds. A troll taking the same base dv will never be knocked out, regardless of whether or not his stun track is shorter. "keeping all the variables in place" does NOT mean comparing a bod 4 troll (which can't exist) to a bod 4 human...it means comparing a bod 8 troll with an extra point of armor to a bod 4 human. That's at least 1 2/3 fewer points of damage hitting the troll every single time, even more soaked if the troll took advantage of his ability to wear more armor without penalty. |
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Feb 7 2006, 10:26 PM
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#38
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Agreed, with respect to physical damage vectors. Stunbolt is a special case, but it's magic and therefore allowed to be. |
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Feb 7 2006, 10:51 PM
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#39
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
@tinkergnome:
Im just discussing the conversion rule. So take a situation where the rule appiles, and then remove it theoretically and then compare. What you will get is a result that is directly proportional to the damage tracks. Because the stun track is normally shorter than body, the rule is unbalanced. Its that easy. I am NOT comparing different situation with the RAW rules, im comparing RAW with a different rule set (one without or different conversion rules) in the SAME situation. |
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Feb 7 2006, 10:55 PM
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#40
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
What are you talking about? Im comparing a bod 8 troll with conversion rules with a bod 8 troll without conversion rules. Nobody is making the example you gave. My point is: A bod 8 troll goes down faster WITH the conversion rule than a bod 8 troll WITHOUT the conversion rules. (btw: Thats what means keeping the variables in place, all of them, expect the one you want to discuss). Thats not the point of the conversion rule. The rule wants to make converted damage less effective. But thats not the case. It amkes it MORE effective. Is that so hard to understand? it seems that some people in here deliberately want to missunderstand me. |
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Feb 7 2006, 11:08 PM
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#41
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
It is based on what? Apparently nothing you are comparing. You aren't even analyzing it.
You are even doing a crappy job of this. Try giving an unaugmented Body 10 Troll a suit of Full Body Armor with no helmet and 3 fragmentation handgrenades. Then have him drop the handgrenades one by one at his feet. With SR4 RAW it is bad enough. With your rule of halving the damage it might occationally tickle his toes. But then add in your ammunition rules, that also cover grenades as per your document, and the Troll can trade in the Full Body Armor for an Armored Jacket and remain just as safe as the second instance of Full Body Armor with your 1/2ing rule. This is a BAD THING. |
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Feb 7 2006, 11:15 PM
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#42
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Interesting idea. I think I like it. |
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Feb 7 2006, 11:19 PM
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#43
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
@Brahm
You are not reading what I am saying. Compare the conversion rule, where physical is converted to stun, with no conversion rule, where physical stays physical, and tell me what is better for the troll. Then tell me that the conversion rules is balanced and works the way it is supposed to work. If you can analyze anything in this very simple fact, then please tell me. Otherwise I tell you that you do not know what you are talking about. ANd I am NOT talking about MY rules. This thread is simply about whether conversion rules are balanced and make sense or not. Please read and think before you post. At the moment I have the impression that you deliberately want be funny by pretending not to understand anything. |
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Feb 7 2006, 11:31 PM
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#44
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
I'm not sure exactly what you think balanced means. From this SHP I'm gathering it means picking out two numbers and trying to square them up while ignoring the larger system. I have already show and explained what the rule does. It puts in place a small amount of diminishing returns for raising armor, while increasing the survivability of medium armored targets.
You aren't talking about it here, you are talking about it elsewhere and pointing to elsewhere from here. But I might as well point out here as anywhere that you don't actually understand the situation at all. EDIT There, I added it in the other thread instead. |
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| Guest_MK Ultra_* |
Feb 7 2006, 11:33 PM
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#45
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Guests |
:noflame:
EDIT: Just kiding, go on if you like to ;) @ Moon-Hawk thnx Youīr welcome :) |
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