About Harlequin's power level. Options

[emo samurai]

I read somewhere that he's about a circle 15 Lightbearer and at least circle 15 in magic. Verjigorm only goes up to circle 8, and Ysrgrathe goes up to circle 10 in illusions. Does that mean that Harlequin's more powerful magically, if not gastronomically, than the first known being? And which is more powerful; a level of initation, or a circle of magic? And how does he compare to great dragons?

[Ancient History]

Harlequin is never given stats, and there is no direct evidence to point to him being a Lightbearer.

The "circles" of Earthdawn adepts have similarities to initiation, but mainly serve to give the adept access to new Talents (adept powers, basically). You could have a 1st Circle adept with 15 ranks in each of her 1st Circle Talents, and she could still purchase Talents from higher Circles (with some limitatons).

As for comparing Harlequin to a Great Dragon or Verjigorm...keep in mind that while Harlequin may be the most powerful metahuman magician, there are other, older things more potent than he. Hell, Ysrthgrathe managed to kick Harlequin's ass at one point.

[mintcar]

[Tanka]

[emo samurai]

You mean the badass Tekkaman armor thing is a very high-level spell? And is he or isn't he as magically powerful as a Horror? And does he retain his old magic, at a lower level, or not? And by gastronomically powerful, I meant his ability to eat things. Anything that can eat dragons whole can NOT be beaten in the arena of eating things. And are horrors pretty much gone as far as villains go? By the time 2500 years pass, we'll have magic in space; we'll be able to Thor shot Verjigorm on top of the extensive magical research and the fact that Thor shots will be completely obsolete by then.

[TinkerGnome]

Horrors aren't gone. They're just... slowed down. Check out Harlie's Back for info, I think.

Though this time around, they're going to get to find out what a minigun on full auto feels like. And it doesn't feel good.

[SL James]

HAHAHA

Garlthik is a 15th Circle Thief in ED. I'd hope an IE would be as powerful in his discipline(s).

[emo samurai]

When did Ysrgrathe kick Harlequin's ass?

[tisoz]

[emo samurai]

What happened in Worlds Without End? And in which book does Jane Foster fend off Ryan Mercury? Isn't she uninitiated?

[nick012000]

In one of the novels in the Dragon Heart trilogy. Ryan Mercury pretends to be a delivery man, and she stops them. She had a few elementals popping in as well, though, if memory serves.

[emo samurai]

[SL James]

The second one, IIRC. Clockwork Asylum.

[Deamon_Knight]

Well, IIRC Verjigorm has killed GDs, even enslaved some with magic. Verjigorm is for all purposes a God. Since Oscuro Overcomes Harley, H is hardly omnipotent.

[hyzmarca]

There are some inconsistancies with the Horrors stats. For example, the game info on the Big Y specificly states that he knows every spell available. However, his stats limit him to circle 10 in all disciplines. This can easily be explained as a mistake made due to publishing order. Horrors was published before the books that contained 11th-15th circle spells. Verjigorm's stats are somewhat more incongruant. They put into question his Godlike status because he can be taken down by a small party of GDs.
If he ever stood and fought fairly against his nemeses he would lose.

[Ancient History]

[Ancient History]

[fistandantilus4....]

[emo samurai]

How could Oscuro beat Harlequin down? He's only initiate grade 4, with two lost Magic points to boot.

[Oracle]

[fistandantilus4....]

Naming spells is different. Naming as spell was one of the ways in ED to make a spell permanent. I've never played 2nd ed Earthdawn, so the only thing I have for reference is 1st edition. From what I recall, the only place that it says that they can't cast above their circle is when picking spells at character creation. It says that they can learn a 2nd circle spell, but not cast it. BUt I've looked for it, because I've had plenty of mage characters that want to cast higher, and it doesn't say anywhere besides that, that I could find, that says that they cannot.

That being said, the high circle spells are supposed to be extremely powerful and rare, being almost impossible to find. So I can understand Ysgrathe not being able to cast too high. Him with Shatter Pattern is just a sary thought. But Verjigorm should be able to cast what ever the hell he feels like. The idea that he can only cast up to 8th ciurcle, the one guy that great dragons fear, is just absurd.

[hyzmarca]

Well, many circle>=10 2Ed Nethermancer spells simply mimic Horror Powers.

10: Animate Dead, Astral Slice, Damage Transfer
11:Unnatural Life
12:Alter Life, Pervert Emotion
13 -
14:Call forth the Army of Decay ?
15:Nethermark


Animate Dead and Damage Shift are common Horror Powers. Astral Slice is unique to Chantrel's Horror which makes me wonder how a Nethermancer discovered that one.

Unnatural life is an uncommon Horror Power but not rare

Aflter Life is an analog to Forge Horror Construct

Callforth the Army is Decay is basicly an area version of Animate Dead.

Nethermark is simply a version of Horror Mark.

[Oracle]

Verjigorm does not rely on spells. He is even limited to Wizard spells as far as I remember.

I know what naming a spell means. But in one of the magic books, Magic or Arcane Myteries, there is a paragraph about high level spells that says that most spells over level 10 are named. That does not say, that those spells use the rules for naming a spell to make it permanent.

@fistandantilus3.0: You seriously say that a circle 2 Nethermancer should be able to cast the Army of Decay?

[fistandantilus4....]

well, technically, they could, but it isn't likely. Remember thread weaving. They would have to roll somewhere around a 30 5 times in a row, then roll their spellcasting, after rolling well enough to learn the spell.

That being said, I don't allow mage classes to cast above their circle. I have , on a few occasions, let someone do it one circle above, but only as raw magic/grimoire casting.

And yeah, I believe you are right that it does say that many of them are named . But that isn't a rule. And the stats for Verjigorm give him spell cirle 8 in (IIRC) wizard and nethermancer. His Spellcasting is around 35 though.

Harlequin should be a swordmaster and, in my opionion, a wizard, perhaps with elemtalist and/or illusionist as extra disciplines. Especially if the stats for Alachia are any example. Alachia is supposed to be (according to AH, whom I believe ) weaker than Harelquin. She has 3-4+ Disciplines of 12th + circle. Hell, Aithne Oakforest has 3 or 4 disciplines not far from that.

[Ophis]

umm I working hard on recall here

@ SL James - Garlthrik ins only(he sez) a 13th circle thief

Caimbuel har'lequin is about circle 12 wizard cirlce 12 swordmaster, no mention of being a light bearer, but it would fit some, depends what tricks knights of the crimson spire get.

Alachia is 13th circle in all spell casteing disciplenes (the normal 4 that is) and troubador

Aithne Oakforest is I think a 10th circle Wizard(maybe wrong on discipline)

Though I think ED underpowered its top end guys some.