I read somewhere that he's about a circle 15 Lightbearer and at least circle 15 in magic. Verjigorm only goes up to circle 8, and Ysrgrathe goes up to circle 10 in illusions. Does that mean that Harlequin's more powerful magically, if not gastronomically, than the first known being? And which is more powerful; a level of initation, or a circle of magic? And how does he compare to great dragons?

Harlequin is never given stats, and there is no direct evidence to point to him being a Lightbearer.

The "circles" of Earthdawn adepts have similarities to initiation, but mainly serve to give the adept access to new Talents (adept powers, basically). You could have a 1st Circle adept with 15 ranks in each of her 1st Circle Talents, and she could still purchase Talents from higher Circles (with some limitatons).

As for comparing Harlequin to a Great Dragon or Verjigorm...keep in mind that while Harlequin may be the most powerful metahuman magician, there are other, older things more potent than he. Hell, Ysrthgrathe managed to kick Harlequin's ass at one point.

You mean the badass Tekkaman armor thing is a very high-level spell? And is he or isn't he as magically powerful as a Horror? And does he retain his old magic, at a lower level, or not? And by gastronomically powerful, I meant his ability to eat things. Anything that can eat dragons whole can NOT be beaten in the arena of eating things. And are horrors pretty much gone as far as villains go? By the time 2500 years pass, we'll have magic in space; we'll be able to Thor shot Verjigorm on top of the extensive magical research and the fact that Thor shots will be completely obsolete by then.

Horrors aren't gone. They're just... slowed down. Check out Harlie's Back for info, I think.

Though this time around, they're going to get to find out what a minigun on full auto feels like. And it doesn't feel good.

HAHAHA

Garlthik is a 15th Circle Thief in ED. I'd hope an IE would be as powerful in his discipline(s).

When did Ysrgrathe kick Harlequin's ass?

What happened in Worlds Without End? And in which book does Jane Foster fend off Ryan Mercury? Isn't she uninitiated?

In one of the novels in the Dragon Heart trilogy. Ryan Mercury pretends to be a delivery man, and she stops them. She had a few elementals popping in as well, though, if memory serves.

The second one, IIRC. Clockwork Asylum.

Well, IIRC Verjigorm has killed GDs, even enslaved some with magic. Verjigorm is for all purposes a God. Since Oscuro Overcomes Harley, H is hardly omnipotent.

There are some inconsistancies with the Horrors stats. For example, the game info on the Big Y specificly states that he knows every spell available. However, his stats limit him to circle 10 in all disciplines. This can easily be explained as a mistake made due to publishing order. Horrors was published before the books that contained 11th-15th circle spells. Verjigorm's stats are somewhat more incongruant. They put into question his Godlike status because he can be taken down by a small party of GDs.
If he ever stood and fought fairly against his nemeses he would lose.

How could Oscuro beat Harlequin down? He's only initiate grade 4, with two lost Magic points to boot.

Naming spells is different. Naming as spell was one of the ways in ED to make a spell permanent. I've never played 2nd ed Earthdawn, so the only thing I have for reference is 1st edition. From what I recall, the only place that it says that they can't cast above their circle is when picking spells at character creation. It says that they can learn a 2nd circle spell, but not cast it. BUt I've looked for it, because I've had plenty of mage characters that want to cast higher, and it doesn't say anywhere besides that, that I could find, that says that they cannot.

That being said, the high circle spells are supposed to be extremely powerful and rare, being almost impossible to find. So I can understand Ysgrathe not being able to cast too high. Him with Shatter Pattern is just a sary thought. But Verjigorm should be able to cast what ever the hell he feels like. The idea that he can only cast up to 8th ciurcle, the one guy that great dragons fear, is just absurd.

Well, many circle>=10 2Ed Nethermancer spells simply mimic Horror Powers.

10: Animate Dead, Astral Slice, Damage Transfer
11:Unnatural Life
12:Alter Life, Pervert Emotion
13 -
14:Call forth the Army of Decay ?
15:Nethermark


Animate Dead and Damage Shift are common Horror Powers. Astral Slice is unique to Chantrel's Horror which makes me wonder how a Nethermancer discovered that one.

Unnatural life is an uncommon Horror Power but not rare

Aflter Life is an analog to Forge Horror Construct

Callforth the Army is Decay is basicly an area version of Animate Dead.

Nethermark is simply a version of Horror Mark.

Verjigorm does not rely on spells. He is even limited to Wizard spells as far as I remember.

I know what naming a spell means. But in one of the magic books, Magic or Arcane Myteries, there is a paragraph about high level spells that says that most spells over level 10 are named. That does not say, that those spells use the rules for naming a spell to make it permanent.

@fistandantilus3.0: You seriously say that a circle 2 Nethermancer should be able to cast the Army of Decay?

well, technically, they could, but it isn't likely. Remember thread weaving. They would have to roll somewhere around a 30 5 times in a row, then roll their spellcasting, after rolling well enough to learn the spell.

That being said, I don't allow mage classes to cast above their circle. I have , on a few occasions, let someone do it one circle above, but only as raw magic/grimoire casting.

And yeah, I believe you are right that it does say that many of them are named . But that isn't a rule. And the stats for Verjigorm give him spell cirle 8 in (IIRC) wizard and nethermancer. His Spellcasting is around 35 though.

Harlequin should be a swordmaster and, in my opionion, a wizard, perhaps with elemtalist and/or illusionist as extra disciplines. Especially if the stats for Alachia are any example. Alachia is supposed to be (according to AH, whom I believe ) weaker than Harelquin. She has 3-4+ Disciplines of 12th + circle. Hell, Aithne Oakforest has 3 or 4 disciplines not far from that.

umm I working hard on recall here

@ SL James - Garlthrik ins only(he sez) a 13th circle thief

Caimbuel har'lequin is about circle 12 wizard cirlce 12 swordmaster, no mention of being a light bearer, but it would fit some, depends what tricks knights of the crimson spire get.

Alachia is 13th circle in all spell casteing disciplenes (the normal 4 that is) and troubador

Aithne Oakforest is I think a 10th circle Wizard(maybe wrong on discipline)

Though I think ED underpowered its top end guys some.

I'll have to double check Bloodwood, but I'm pretty sure that Alachia was a 14th circle Troubadour, and Aithne had a few more disciplines. As another example of an elf with a ton of power, there's what's his name.. Escallanes, who does have multiple mage disciplines over 10th+ circle. I'm just giving some examples.

checking the book (the blood wood)
Alachia is mentioned as a 12th circle troubadour and accomplished in illusion and elementalist, probablely in the other magician disciplines, and maybe more stuff.

Aithne is 12 elementalist. 11 nethermancer, and 10 wizard.

no circles mentioned for caimbueul (harle based on the name being used in worlds with out end)

cool, thanks. I hate not having books handy

Do you have the Circles handy for Etheros, or what ever the hell his name is?

Just a good way to gauge Hq's strength, by checking out the ones that are weaker than him, but still Grade A scaries.

Was Alachia weaker than the laughing man? In the 4th world? I am not sure about that. The situation in the 6th world is a different matter.

@Ophis: Why do you call a two-digit circle in multiple disciplines and masses of powerful magical items underpowered?

It seems so, although there's no proof one way or the other. I don't see Alachia taking any crap from someone that she can whoop. Ask AH, since he's the authority, and rather certain that Harlequin is stronger than her. Ask him for a source I guess if you want something more specific.

If I remember correctly, Alachia was one of the first elves. Which means she's older than Harlequin.

Harlequin and many other characters were not given stats for a reason. Sometimes it's more about telling a good story than crunching numbers.

She was able to seduce him. And that was one of Alachia's primary techniques of dominance over men.

Harlequin was a Wizard/Swordsman adept, wasn't he?

Harlequin's power level? Let me see......

OK, take a lit match, compare it to an active atomic bomb. You're the match, he's the nuke.

There's a reason he's an NPC. He's much more fun that way.

I think you missed it Bookworm. They are essentially comparing fat man to little boy here. (Yes I know they are atomic bombs instead of nuclear) but anyhow, they are pointing out "slight flaws" in story line consistency. From my understanding Alachia had more political power in ED.... I am not sure about magical power.... but several sources state that Harley is the most powerful meta-human caster on the planet in the 6th world. Not sure if something in the 5th or 6th age somehow shifted that or if it was always like that ... but inquiring minds would like to know the "official" answers.

There is no mentioning of Harlequin's stats in any book anywhere. There is a *suggestion* as to how DMs *could* determine stats appropriate *in shadowrun terms* for him *if* there was *need* which is negated by the later statement that "he can do anything he wants with magic". This is in Harlequin's back if memory serves right.
When dealing with SR material you should keep in mind that Harlequin, as all IE's use a different form of magic. In simplest terms, SR magic is raw magic while Harlequin uses threat magic.

There is a mention of Harlequin beeing both a Swordmaster and a Wizard in the Bloodwood, but that's it. No circles, no nothing. (P 63, the Bloodwood, the Sereatha entry)

The assumption that Harlequin is a lightbearer is based on abilities that are similar to Lightbearer magic, but it is said in several places that Harlequins magic is strange even for ED magic, so it could well be just spells or talents.

Isn't Darke only Initiate Grade 4, with 8 magic instead of 10?

It would be funny is Harlequin is actually a Horror Stalker and Verjigorm does thoughtworm him into suicide but due to a series of fluke rolls Verjigorm dies too.

@ emo samurai
Init 4, Magic 10
But keep in mind, that this was 2nd Edition, were Init 4 was quiet high (in 3rd, Aztech Blood Mages have a minimum of 8, the average of gestalt-mages in 2nd Ed was only 3) and than ad corruption potency to that (Oscuro was probably the most potent corrupted ever in SR).

Beaumis: Alachia is in to a lot more than just Tir Na Nog. She's invlolved in the politics of both Tirs. And I doubt that she cose her role. I've always been under the impression that she works from behind the thrones because no one will let her sit on one any more. Not after what happened last time.

She's also the head of the Atlantean Foundation, under the alias of Sheila Blatavska. Get that from the Loose Alliances book, where it says that Sheila is also Hecate, and she posts just after pretty much admitting it. Then add in the 'shadowtalk' in the Aztlan SB, plus the notes that were posted last year from the FASA clearance, concerning Big D's will, where it said straight out that Hecate was Alachia. Everyone up to that point was debating between it being her or Aina, but that and LA pretty much answered that. The girl gets around.

So initiate grade 4 in SR2 would be what in SR3-4? And I read the Harlequin's Back book, and his magic's 8 in spite of his initiate grade 4. I'm assuming he sacrificed something to the Horrors or something.

In SR2, the first grade of initiation was 0. At that grade, the initiate could learn all the metamagics. Just little differences like that.

From Harlequin's Back

" Harlequin is self-initiated to a double-digit grade, but even that statment only works for purposes of comparison because his magic functions differently. As a rule of thumb in roleplaying Harlequin, if it exists as a spell he can cast it (or fake it quickly) at a level no player character can hope to resist. He also possesses enough self-activatng protections and wards to make him virtually invulnerable to all save those who can use magic on his level ( which means slottin' near bobody).

As in the first Harlequin adventure, Harlequin has no game statistics because he serves primarily as a motivator for the story's events. He can do whatever the gamemaster needs him to do to move the story along, and he cannot do anything the players must do for themselves to make the story work.
. . . "


I hope that helps

P.79

Some people like Lone Gunman think "Hecate" is Sheila in Threats, but there are too many inconsistencies to assert that she is based on the speculation of one lunatic standing in for the dozens of fans on AOL's SR forum who used to bug the hell out of Tom Dowd, et al. about who they were and argue about their identities ad nauseum onto ShadowRN, and every other site where SR players congregated up to and including DS.

Of course now that some of the same people who spent stupid amounts of time arguing the identities of the annotators of Aztlan are now writing the books anything is possible.

I still think it'd be... thin to reveal (or retcon) that Alachia is Hecate. It'd be like revealing, in the DC Universe, that Batman and Superman are really both the same guy. Unless she's the Kwisatz Haderach, or has somehow otherwise mastered the fine art of time travel and being in many places at once, that's too full of a course load for any one being regardless of magical power level and intellect.

Alachia is also Sosan Narain. Redhead, green eyes, otherwise physically identical to her Aryan daughter/clone, Jenna N'Fiarra. She's neck-deep in the political, social, and magical dealings of Tir Tairngire, a no-longer-so-secret member of the inner circle of powermongers there (er, well, was, until aliens apparently invaded and nuked Tir Tairngire with mind control lasers, or somesuch, they're probably all radioactive lizard-zombies or something, we are all staying tuned in!). She's also the tutor to Lady Brane Deigh, the queen of the Seelie Court in Tir na nOg. That's a pretty busy schedule to keep, involves a lot of travel besides.

Hecate is also Sheila Blatavaska and Miss Tick. Mediterranean, black hair, blue eyes. She is the micromanaging CEO of the Atlantean Foundation, which engages in archeological activity around the world, a magical scholar who apparently is prone to personally attending lectures in the various centers of thaumaturgical study. She trolls Shadowland and Magicknet under two seperate aliases and seems to be present to chime in her opinion, in one form or the other, on most every pertinent magical or fourth-world/immortal-related posting on each. One assumes she also makes public appearances for the Atlantean Foundation, beyond personally overseeing and handling diplomacy for all truly critical AF operations.

It'd be less of a stretch to believe that Hecate is Hecate, i.e. is a completely seperate immortal elf, most likely a blood magician, probably of Theran (hence the Atlantean interest) origin, rather than originating in Blood Wood like Alachia. The Hecate persona's physical appearance could be a disguise, too, but Alachia didn't go through much effort to look incredibly different when she was Queen Elizabeth I or Eva Braun. I'm sure it can be made so that they are both the same person, but, like I said, it'd seem thin to me. There are only so many hours in the day, and that's a lot of road to walk from sunrise to sunset.

Maybe she uses considerable use of the Matrix and holoprojectors.

Besides, does this sound like something Alachia would write: "Elijah, Elijah, Elijah. You really should have come aboard when we made you the offer. We could do so much together" (LA, 79).

Pfft, every female immortal who's not a "good guy" (i.e. Aina, the rebel without a cause, and Hestaby, Dunkelzahn 2.0 who uses AIMspeak) would write that. They all seem to come off like the goddamned evil queen in Snow White.

don't forget that , for one, there are spells and magical means to pretty much be going 24/7 and the Tir's and Crete are in very diffferent time zones. Probably burns a lot of jet fuel though, assuming she can't cast Gateway.

One of the reasons that there is always that dissparate info/character POV of Hecate is that she's been used by many different freelancers through out the years, and there's nothing that says that they're all on the same page. Remember the whole "Wraith" thing from SoA? The 'hidden counselor' to the Emporer? Otaku Mike (IIRC) wrote that section, but someone else originally did that YOTC thing where the child Emporer was used as a hidden life receptacle. The brief discussion between them was here on DS. BUt because they wrote it at separate times, they both had different ideas of who the Wraith was. One decided that it was the free spirit of an ancient samurai lord. THe other, the spirit of the Emporer' s deceased ork brother who had been born in secret and shipped to Yomi.

The pieces fit with Hecate being Alachia (although they could to some extent w/ Aina as well). But like I said, one of the bigget tells was the notes from FASA's clearance, which was also here on DS, when they cleaned out their offices, and people were going out there picking up boxes of papers.

Of course, YMMV, and it's your game, so do what you like with it. It could be part of her over-all impressiveness that she can manage so much. Hell, Lowfyr aparently watches 50 different TV's at once in different languages and takes it all in just fine.