 Serbitars Packages, due to popular demand |
  |
 Feb 23 2006, 03:05 AM
Post
#101
|
|||||
|
Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006  |
How about a jumped in Techno Rigger with combat drones and 13 karma? Or a modest 160,000 nuyen during character creation and an extra 80,000 after, taking up a total of 1.5 Essense? Cheap enough for even Adepts to take. What the SR4 RAW system does is keep punk NPCs relavant longer instead of quickly becoming punching bags. Depending on your game it isn't that long to reach the 4th IP for some character types, and anything short of the 10 segment example below has that jump to 3rd a very important one. One that is quite readily attainable, even at chargen. What TinkerGnome's segment one creates 2 big tier jumps and on little one from 2-3. Sebitars is better in that it only creates the 1 big tier jump, but it is going from 2 to 3 which fairly common at chargen so you seperate the augmenteds into haves and have nots instead of it into augmented and not. To better get away from the problem of creating expanded gaps between the IP values at some tiers but not others you'd need to go to either 7 or a full 10. For example:
You can see in the last one the very extreme where the IP completely determines the order, the only thing that the Initiative roll is used for is to determine within a given IP. What that mostly does is enforce that IP 3 will go before IP 2, although it does give IP 4 two actions before IP 1. Pretty hard to avoid that though and keep 3 increased power jumps. EDIT Although I suppose you could slide the second IP 4 from segment 4 to segment 5 and pull the IP 1 forward to segment 4. Then in becomes very similar to RAW only with any chance of a lower IP rolling higher than a higher IP removed. Of course now we have a full chart to run off of, but you definately still get the extra weighting to the IP. ---- Not that it is really needed given the already large benefits of each extra IP already in RAW. |
||||
 |
 
|
||||
|
Feb 23 2006, 10:30 AM
Post
#102
|
|||||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
If you condense 2 and 3 togehter you got my 3-1-4-2 system . . . Some further things to discuss: - Why is astral combat willpower, though astral agility is logic? - What about making cyberware upgradeable, but bioware not (you would have to buy the difference from 2-3 to go from 2-3 in cyberware, but you would have to pay 0-3 to go from 2-3 in bioware)? |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Feb 23 2006, 10:49 AM
Post
#103
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
If you don't like the cut and dried order of the speed chart (or don't want to refer to a chart) you can steal the init system from 7th sea and do the following: Every characters rolls a number of d6 equal to thier init passes. The numbers showing are the 'phases' of the round that they will act on (starting at phase 1). Where two characters (or more) are acting in the same phase, the one with the highest total goes first. If the totals are the same, compare reaction.
Example: A fight involves: Speed bunny (3 IP) Kinda wired guy (2 IP) Mid-life crisis man (1IP) and 3 goons They all roll: Speed bunny rolls 1, 5, 6 Kinda wired guy 5 and 5 Mid-life crisis man 1 Goon 1 rolls 4 Goon 2 rolls 5 Goon 3 rolls 2 In phase 1 both speed bunny and Mid-life crisis man act, as speed bunnys total (1+5+6=12) is higher that Mid-life crisis man's, Speed Bunny goes first. In phase 2, goon 3 acts. In phase 3, no-one acts In phase 4, Goon 1 acts In phase 5, Goon 2, Kinda Wired Guy, and Spped bunny all go Speed Bunny Goes first (total 11, vs 10, and 5) Then Kinda wired guy (10 vs 5) Then Kinda Wired guy again (his total matches the total of goon 2, but his reaction is higher) Then, finally, goon 2 In phase 6, Speed bunny goes, and the round is over. This makes combat much more dangerous, as you cannot 'count' on going before someone all of the time. This makes the 'surpirse action' that much more important, as you get an action first. |
|
|
|
|
Feb 23 2006, 11:46 AM
Post
#104
|
|
|
Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
that seems....whacked... what happens if someone rolls multiples? they get to take multiple actions in a pass?
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 23 2006, 01:27 PM
Post
#105
|
|||
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
What's funny is that I originally commented on this because I dislike 3-1-4-2 in favor of 4-1-3-2. The rest is just an extension of that discussion. I dislike 3-1-4-2 because it puts the power jump within the reach of most starting characters. At least with 4-1-3-2, the bulk of characters with 4IP have dedicated very significant resources (the techno rigger being an exception) to it. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 23 2006, 01:37 PM
Post
#106
|
|
|
Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
I don't know if it's been said, but doesn't the new full dodge rules somewhat solve this problem with faster characters not really being faster? Now a character with lots of IP's will be able to coldly take his time and easily take down the slower guy when he's flat footed.
The scenario everybody feared in SR3 was something like the 3 IP guy facing 2 guys with only 1 IP, and inevitably getting shot when he should have been able to get them both before they were able to blink. In SR4 that scenario would play out like this: Fast guy goes first, shoots one of the other guys. The one left acts, shoots fast guy. Fast guy goes full dodge and propably comes clean. Fast guy acts again and shoots the one left. I can buy that. |
|
|
|
|
Feb 23 2006, 01:42 PM
Post
#107
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
That is right, but a 3-1-4-2 or 4-1-3-2 just "feels" more natural.
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 23 2006, 01:45 PM
Post
#108
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Thats true, but consider: 3 IPs are thrice as much as 1 IP, that should lead to a decisive difference. And the 3-1-4-2 reflects just that. Furthermore it fulfills most of my criteria mentioned above. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 23 2006, 03:12 PM
Post
#109
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
:? I'm not sure how you are coming to thrice, sounds a lot like superstitious mathematics. But that aside in RAW play you haven't noticed a decisive difference between 3 IP and 1 IP characters? Or even a lesser though still very decisive difference between 2 IP and 1 IP characters? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 23 2006, 03:16 PM
Post
#110
|
|||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Yes. Note that in the example, Kinsa Wired Guy goes twice in phase 5, as he rolled two 5s. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 23 2006, 07:24 PM
Post
#111
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 297 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 248 |
:? 3 = 3 x 1. That's thrice in my book. Normal math though. But a 3IP char, in our games at least, did always have the upper hand. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Feb 23 2006, 07:29 PM
Post
#112
|
|||||||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Ah, I thought he ment costing thrice as much or something wierd. Because if you are doing that then it is so obvious that those with 3 IP get 3 times as many actions with the same combat turn. Assuming they haven't terminated the 1 IP character before that. :) It is defined by the IP. 3 IP is 3 times as many actions per turn as 1 IP. It is a definition thing. :wobble: |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Feb 23 2006, 09:31 PM
Post
#113
|
|||||
|
Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
- No. Read what I said. Mods after base. - No superstition, statistics. Both rolls are perfectly uncorrelated, so while the average hit from reduced dice = 0, a negative number of hits is suddenly possible. And how would you decide on glitches? Note that is an issue of reduced dice pools only. - with a large number of sec companies and corp armies, even combat cyberware of some degree will be common. certainly a need to explain, but that can be done by buying a license for your SIN. But still, your fix does nothing as far as I can see. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Feb 23 2006, 09:51 PM
Post
#114
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
-Sorry, when I have misunderstood you in the attribute cost thing. If I understand you correct, you are exactly proposing what I suggested in my house rule. If not, could you give an example?
-that is, of course, correct - my fix prevents lonestar from installing cyberware scanners everywhere and constantly scanning everybody, instantly finding illegal cyberware. I restrict effective range, suggest a timeframe,so one would have to effectively stand still to be scanned and I give measures against it (my ECM) that can totally prevent scanning. |
|
|
|
|
Feb 23 2006, 09:52 PM
Post
#115
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 99 Joined: 20-February 06 From: Media PA Member No.: 8,288 |
yeah those cyberware scanners are def. overpowered. I like your fix restricting the range.
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 24 2006, 09:48 AM
Post
#116
|
|
|
Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
- Yes, but without cost adjustment. I prefer as little change as necessary. Mechanically the same as yours I think. It was just an opinion either way, so disregard...
- Your welcome 8) . I don´t see an easy fix to this I´m afraid, but it has to be resolved if one was to use that rule. - Consider what they are using. You are not going to install milimeter wave radar everywhere for the same reason you are not going to wear "milimeter wave ECM". DocWagon would sue LoneStar into oblivion on behalf of their customers. |
|
|
|
|
Feb 24 2006, 05:50 PM
Post
#117
|
|||
|
Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Well, apparently lawsuits aren't as big a deterent as they used to be. If they were people wouldn't be walking around with radio wave emitters implanted with every piece of 'ware that everyone apparently just sort of keeps on by default. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 26 2006, 07:50 AM
Post
#118
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,206 |
... maybe there should be another thread started just for arguing the most finite details of system mechanics...
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 27 2006, 09:08 AM
Post
#119
|
|
|
Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Serbitar wants to talk about his package... and so we do.
Concering the wavelength-problem: http://imagers.gsfc.nasa.gov/ems/waves3.html and http://imagers.gsfc.nasa.gov/ems/waves4.html concering the produced energy. I´d just say that placing said scanners everywhere is forbidden. |
|
|
|
|
Feb 27 2006, 12:25 PM
Post
#120
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 297 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 248 |
The problem is, those scanners aren't emitting anything. They just "film" whats coming from the target. They're practically cameras, filming in a different spectrum. The technology already exists: http://www.designnews.com/article/CA181405.html http://www.elva-1.com/products/industrial/...ave_camera.html It's not nearly as sophisticated as in SR4, but it's already there. Since nothing is emitted, they could be placed everywhere, like cameras. They are non-invasive. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 27 2006, 05:45 PM
Post
#121
|
|
|
Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Didn´t know that a passive system is possible. Thanks Darkness!
Serbitar: Problem admitted. I suggest widely spread combatware-licences as fix (ex-military, ex-security, bounty hunters, couriers, bodyguards). A no-rules solution. Reducing scanner range does nothing at RAW system cost. |
|
|
|
|
Feb 27 2006, 06:54 PM
Post
#122
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
That would change the game in a way I do not want to. I do not want everybody and his brother (widely spread) running arround with forbidden Cyberware.
I want runners to HAVE problems, when caught with illegal cyberware (instead of them just pulling out their permit), but I do not want to make running impossible by the scanner thing. Thus my house rules. |
|
|
|
|
Feb 27 2006, 09:59 PM
Post
#123
|
|
|
Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
How does reducing the range help? You can still scan everyone at strategical locations.
ECM can be noticed. |
|
|
|
|
Feb 27 2006, 10:24 PM
Post
#124
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
1. You can use ECM. In most "automated scurity" areas, nobody will go the additional distance to scan for electronic devices that could be ECM. Especially, as there is no device in the rules, that does this. (I know that it can be noticed, I explicitly give an example in my SGP)
2. You can defend yourself by following the simple advice: - stay away from drones and installations - keep moving What you get: - Having illegal cyberware, and thus Shadowrunning, is possible, as you can not be detected efortlessly by routine scans if you know what to do - when you are explicitly scanned and searched (searches that go so deeps to find ECM for example), you are in trouble. You can not pull out the "permit everything" llicense. Both things are desireable in a consistent game wold. At least in mine. |
|
|
|
 Feb 27 2006, 10:33 PM
Post
#125
|
|||
|
jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,424 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
Because you do not fight like in the real world. It's more a test of wills, than who's faster and more accurate. Or something like that. :D Of course, the question then remains, why astrally perceiving characters use physical attributes and skills (unless I got that wrong, that is). Bye Thanee |
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 4th March 2025 - 02:40 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.