How do you deal with forensics Options

[Crusher Bob]

Oh yes, I always leave a highly persistent and lethal chemial agent like VX behind covering all areas of my crime scene. When the authorities finally get around to doing the cleanup any evidence I left behind will have been destroyed. :eek:

The other things the cop shows fail to mention is how hard it can be to get usable forensic evidence and how much time + money it takes to process that evidence. If you have only left one fingerpirnt 'somewhere' then the cops may not find it or it may be of insufficient 'quality' to stand up in court. If you leave hundreds, they are certain to get a usable one.

[hyzmarca]

[eidolon]

[Snow_Fox]

MFB and Vagabond hit on the two crucial points but let me sum up.

1) sure CSU stuff can be impressive. but is it worth it to the corp? This stuff costs resources and unless there's a bigger game gonig on, they cna't waste it on every B&E. Even if there are dead assests they are more likely to want to know who is footing the bill than who pulled the trigger. Unless you're a major player with a personal vendetta or you're doing osemthing insane like going for the CEO, they don't care who the actor is, they want the people behind you. "who's buying street muscle for a run on us?"
They may increase defences to stop the street meat, but not waste too much time in hunting you down afterward.

2) Who is sharing info? Most corps are extraterritotrial and are unlikely to share details with each other or LS. To admit someone went through so and so office is to give away details to the competion, maybe the ones who sent the runners.
"No officer we did not have a break in"
"I'm looking at a Ford sticking out of your plate glass window."
"No, that is Wuxing territory and there's nothing there."

[eidolon]

Ah, but information sharing is handled differently in every game. IMC, Interpol works closely with both government and private security forces, for example. I'm sure there's a GM out there that has a game in which LS never cooperates with anyone, but KE works with Interpol and the Feds. Etcetera.

[mfb]

i don't see that as jiving well with the in-game information. sure, the corps drop information to Interpol--when it benefits them. the corps are not interested in upholding the law, only in making a profit and maintaining the current balance of power. in most cases, the corps derive no benefit from having, say, Interpol track down and arrest runners, and there's a pretty good chance that doing so will cause the corp significant harm--if the runners saw any illegal activities during their run, say.

[Edward]

There are times when a corp could esaly (and may want to) share information. Mainly when there asking for extradition.

If a mega corp provided to loan star and the Seattle courts proof that an individual broke in and killed a security guard the individual will be handed over to the corporation for /trial/ and punishment with no questions asked about what they did in the room with the blown camera (killed key researcher, hacked offline matrix host, stole prototype (if it was not visible on the exit tape)). Now they have the prep for no loss of strategic data. Of cause this only works if the star can get hold of the perp

Edward

[mfb]

indeed. when there's a direct, tangible benefit for a corp, they'll turn over evidence.

but think about what we're talking about: building a case up from minor clues that the perpetrator likely didn't notice he was leaving. do y'all think that only applies to shadowrunners? that local and international authorities don't build cases against corps the same way they do against runners? the intersection between shadowrunner activity and illegal corporate activity is a big one. every runner that gets arrested has the potential to hand the arresting authority some sort of clue on the corporation that runner hit--a clue that those authorities, or other authorities, might fit into a case against the very corp that handed the information over in the first place. not every case, sure, and not even most cases--but it's going to happen eventually. why would a corp hasten this eventuality by handing evidence over often?

[eidolon]

Again, I'm not saying anyone is wrong. I'm also not jumping around yelling "the way it works in my game is perfectly, 100%, always the way the book says".

One point I'd make though, is that it seems that you're looking at Interpol (and the other law enforcement agencies by proxy) as entities that only act if it's in somone else's interest. You seem to be ignoring the fact that these agencies are in the business of catching criminals. At least with the public ones (FBI, Interpol, etc.), they're going to want to know who killed John Q Public because it's their job to find out.

Forgive me if that wasn't your intent, mfb, but your line about corps "deriving no benefit" makes it sound as such. Interpol doesn't give a rat's ass if it helps Ares for them to catch known murderers.

As far as corps sharing info, it's always going to come down to the specific situation. To make a blanket assumption about information sharing and try to apply it to every possible case is pointless, IMO.

And of course that's how agencies build cases. But just like RL, there's all kinds of things that factor into this kind of stuff. "You want to make a deal and tell us about the "happenings" at Ares' lab? You think we don't know what's going on there? We get paid very well in this precinct to keep that from getting out, if you catch my drift." That's just one possiblity. It all comes down to what's going on in your story/campaign/game. Can't generalize on this one, I don't think.

[mfb]

i was talking more about corps sharing info with Interpol and other authorities than the other way around. Interpol will share information with other groups, of course, even corporate security (since i'm certain the CC has lackeyfied Interpol as surely as it did the UN and other groups). but the corps probably won't hand information over to Interpol unless there's a compelling reason to.

i'm not attacking your game, or anything. just saying that, from what i've read and how i interpret it, it doesn't usually work that way in the published setting.

[Snow_Fox]

guys, and I'll bew dating myself here, look back to the old module "Queen Euphoria"

at the end of the booklet is a copy of the corp contract the runners are to sign if they are to be hired to get her back. They are hired by a media firm to attack a snack food factory. sure most runner contracts are a hand shake in a bar, but the wording of the contract does imply that the agents are free of liability.

Sure there may be times a corp wants to share info with LS or LE or KE or the FBI, MI5, KGB, Deuxiuem Bureau, DAR, but it will be when and where they choose and not all the the truth, the whole truth amd nothing but the truth. This will prevent the other organizations from getting all details needed for a full picture.

After all, maybe Renraku doesn't want the outside world to know how good their are. or MCT doesn't want people to know about that particular weakness, or AZT wants to hunt down the people themselves and does not want it traced back to them for bad PR as their agents shoot up the SEATAC mall while chaisng the targets.

[hyzmarca]

[Edward]

[Ed Simons]

[eidolon]

Holy gorb. Some people have some serious "need-to-be-right" complexes. You do realize that we all run our games differently, and that it's a good bet that not everyone's games have the same things going on?

I gave organizations as examples ... OF ORGANIZATIONS. Not as specifically the organizations that matter in every situation. They fit the discussion from my perspective, because in my game ATM, there are crimes that have been committed by the runners that

[mfb]

...

eidolon, for chrissake, nobody cares how you run your game. do whatever you like, at your table. but you're putting out information that deviates from a) in-game reality and b) real life reality, so we're putting out more correct information for the benefit of those who are interested. if you're not, fine, but don't tell us to shut up just because we want people to have access to correct information. nobody's attacking your game, nobody's attacking you. quit being so defensive.

[Edward]

[mfb]

*shrug* i figured i already had that covered with

[eidolon]

Mea culpa guys. Had a rough week. Taking it out on random things. :(

[mfb]

no prob.

[eidolon]

To be fair though, nobody really cares how anyone runs their games, even if they're canon. But, we merrily click away describing them in great detail day after day after day. Meh.

[mfb]

your game sucks, sirrah, and you are a buffoon!

anyway. forensics, in most games, seems like it's best used as GM tool for justifying whatever he wants to have happen. it lets the GM have, say, Lone Star (or Interpol or whoever) put pressure on the PCs without the players necessarily feeling like they're being railroaded--as long as the GM doesn't use it too often. once or twice per campaign, i'd say, would be pushing it.

[Brahm]

A moderately related link I just saw come up.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/20...ct-halifax.html

Is it possible that expectations driven by TRID pop fiction could actually infuence how the 6th world investigations are done? Not a total conversion, but slanting them towards forensic evidence gathering. Law enforcement is now business, and a business' image to it's customers extemely important.

[hyzmarca]

Considering the 80s influence, I'd think that media-driven public expectation would lead toward a more Human Inteligence oriented approach. Forensics is a late 90s/early 00s fad, really. The detectives of the late 80s/early 90s relied heavily on human intelligence, mostly in the form of roughing up less valuable suspects to get info about the ringleaders. They also tended to blow stuff up. I'd expect Lone Star to do both fairly often. Call it the Lethal Weapon school of police work.

I'd also expect the headline "Mob boss killed in unarmed combat with a topless Lone Star officer" to come up far more often than the headline "Mob boss arrested by shirt-wearing Lone Star officer".

[mfb]

hyzmarca scores 2 points.