Even now, crime scene forensics are capable of locating and assisting in the conviction of all but the most meticulous of criminals. Add in 6th world tech, magic and ritual sorcery, and is there any runner safe if they give a corp / cops/ individual enough reason to commit the resources?
For small time shadowrunners i can see nobody comminting the resources, but once they start getting into the thick of big time corporate plays, and the machinations of those in power, one drop of blood from a bullet wound, one stray hair from a tight squeze, one drop of sweat, and you've left your calling card.
How in depth have you advanced forensics in 2060+? do any of the sourcebooks cover forensic science? Can it work for the runners as well as against?
Juzzman
Full Version: How do you deal with forensics
| QUOTE (juzzman) |
| Even now, crime scene forensics are capable of locating and assisting in the conviction of all but the most meticulous of criminals. |
this isn't really true. at most, it's true only in cases where the list of suspects is fairly short--that way, the forensics guys just have to figure out which suspect did it. in the case of a shadowrun, your list of suspects literally spans the globe--you have no idea whether the runners were local talent, out-of-town specialists, company men on a corporate job, or god knows what else. forensics will help you get a general description of the perps (what kind of weapons they use, their MO, maybe some physical clues like hair color, maybe even prints), but it won't necessarily help you locate them. forensics can do a lot, but it seems to me that it's most useful in finishing a case that's already mostly solved.
also, consider that most shadowrunners spread their crimes over a large number of different jurisdictions, many of which will not cooperate at all with each other. forensics depends largely on matching evidence at the crime scene with evidence taken from past crime scenes. if a given forensic team has access to only a small percent of the crime scenes a given runner has performed criminal activities at, they're not going to have very much data to compare the current crime scene to.
| QUOTE (juzzman) |
| but once they start getting into the thick of big time corporate plays, and the machinations of those in power, one drop of blood from a bullet wound, one stray hair from a tight squeze, one drop of sweat, and you've left your calling card. |
once you've hit the big time, it's no longer all that profitable to hunt you, the perpetrator, down (if it ever was). it doesn't matter who committed a particular crime, because anybody could have done it. what matters is who commissioned the crime. sure, they might be able to get that information out of you--maybe, if your Johnson was stupid and screwed up somewhere. better to pursue the matter through other channels.
What they can do is build a profile on you and crossreference your DNA with any database that they have access to. The profile on you is limited to the crimes you have committed on that particular corp's property.
I think i agree with MFB, i dont think it's a matter of "who dun it", but more of a "who paid it to have it dun" deal, in the scheme of things, shadowrunners are like the muscle in the Mob, yea, it's nice to grab a knee cracker, but if the knee cracker can and will tell you the bigger fish and the bigger pan (the why's) well, thats alot more valuable to anyone. So i don't see many corps spending large chunks to find the runners, unless they have reason o beleive that they perhaps know more than they really should.
There are two simple ways to deal with forensic evidence if you have a SIN and there is one way to deal with it if you don't have a SIN
1 (if you are human) : Fill the jury with humanis sympathizers and make sure that they know exacylt which motherfragging meta cop planted the evidence against you.
2 (if you are a meta) : Fill the jury with metas and make sure they know exactly which motherfragging humanis cop planted the evidence agains tyou.
3 (if you're SINless) : Pay the cops to lose the evidence.
Really, forensic evidence is only as reliable as the cops are trustworthy. Cops are far more trustworthy today than they are in 2070.
1 (if you are human) : Fill the jury with humanis sympathizers and make sure that they know exacylt which motherfragging meta cop planted the evidence against you.
2 (if you are a meta) : Fill the jury with metas and make sure they know exactly which motherfragging humanis cop planted the evidence agains tyou.
3 (if you're SINless) : Pay the cops to lose the evidence.
Really, forensic evidence is only as reliable as the cops are trustworthy. Cops are far more trustworthy today than they are in 2070.
| QUOTE (juzzman) |
| How in depth have you advanced forensics in 2060+? do any of the sourcebooks cover forensic science? Can it work for the runners as well as against? |
Let me preface this by saying I'm a police officer in real life.
Forensics isn't the "solve-it-all" solution to crime that most people think it is. Usually if it's not a capital crime, especially in larger cities, then they aren't even going to bother with a CSU (Crime Scene Unit- which is what we use).
Yes, if they spend enough time, they may(I stress "may" because this isn't as easy as TV makes it out to be) find some sort of sample like a fiber of fingerprint (as you pointed out, I think the most likely piece of forensic evidence would be bullets and blood), but then they need something to compare it to.
That's right, folks. No suspect, then all the forensic evidence in the world doesn't mean a hill of beans. If the suspected character has a criminal record, though, then he may be hurting, because I believe by 2060 your DNA profile would be in your file right next to your fingerprints. In my Shadowrun world, if you are on probation, parole, or have been released from custody within the past five years, then the authorities also have a genetic sample on file. Welcome to a life of crime.
Another thing that really divides SR from Real Life™ is the concept of SINs and SINless. If you are SINless, then you really are protected from mundane forensic evidence since you are a non-entity.
I think it's that detail that seperates Shadowrun from Real Life™. Most capital crimes (esp things like Murder) always find a way back to the suspect. I mean it's not like freelance criminal work is common (yet), and so even if you have a "hitman" situation, we can usually trace the hitman back to the person who hired him (friend of a friend of a friend they did time with, that kind of thing)
That all being said, especially with magic in Shadowrun, forensic science can still bite even the most cautious of runners in the hoop. Which is why things like Magical Theory (so they know what to clean up to prevent use in ritual sorcery) and the Sterilize spell are so useful.
But what about blood-splatter and bullets? Easy- just don't have much of either.
However, if you persist, I would also argue there is probably a product (I would say it could be legal, but if not black market) that you can spray on organic evidence left behind that contains micro-organisms similiar to those found in lakes, rivers, and oceans that feed on organic matter at the celluar level and can degrade DNA. Since the "Shadow-market" is so thriving (especially in big cities like Seattle), I'd say this stuff is fairly cheap and fairly common.
To answer your other question, SOTA 64 briefly talks about forensics in the Lone Star Section. I believe the Lone Star Sourcebook and the Corporate Security Handbook talk about these as well, but briefly, and some of the rules for them have been purged in SR3 (like FAB, which is pointless now that astral beings can travel through living matter).
Well one hting a couple of my Mage charaters always equipe themselves with **STERILIZE** i find it puts a hold on DNA and other crap.
As for being the GM who does'nt want to explain it, is i just make a open roll for the NPC's, they some times get some Evidence or just think to them selve," Nope no crime done here" or " Damn these guys are pro's".
As for being the GM who does'nt want to explain it, is i just make a open roll for the NPC's, they some times get some Evidence or just think to them selve," Nope no crime done here" or " Damn these guys are pro's".
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| What they can do is build a profile on you and crossreference your DNA with any database that they have access to. The profile on you is limited to the crimes you have committed on that particular corp's property. |
indeed. however, building up a useful database is going to take at least 11 times as long as it would in the modern U.S.--the data is going to be split between the jurisdictions of all ten megas and Seattle, minimum. that doesn't count the multiplicity of smaller extraterritorials. and any crime that take place in the Barrens, you can basically assume nobody collects any evidence from. most corps are going to have a very, very small database on even the most prolific runners, especially if those runners take even the most basic precautionary measures (swapping firing pins/barrels after ever run, Sterilize spells, etcetera).
basically, the only good in-game use of forensics is when the GM needs it to justify something. if the family of Random Security Guard A decides to hunt you down for killing him, the GM can justify them finding you by saying their hired deckers got lucky with a search of various corps' forensic databases.
CSI seems to have created a lot of misconceptions about current forensics. I've only watched it twice myself. I don't remember much about the second time, but I do recall the first one. They pop this sample of a black powder from some gel caps into some magical analyze everything machine, and it spits out that there is coconut husk in it. It must be activated charcoal!
It is true that a large portion of activated charcoal is manufactured using coconut husk. But for there to be enough husk left to be identified as such after all the processing to become activated charcoal? How ineffective and crappy such activated charcoal would be is hard to fathom.
In short what is done on CSI is only remotely related to actual fact.
On our last run we accidentally cacked a security guard. As already covered generally they send the real investigators for things like people that count dieing. A security employee dieing should be enough to send out at least a few people to check around and collect evidence in case it points to known criminals or can be used in the future if a suspect turns up or cases start connecting. Especially since this was on the University of Washington campus, so a somewhat public event. To try slow down the forensics a couple team members set fire to a hijacked vehicle when abondoning it. The result sort of worked, as it triggered a fire suppressing foam system that covered the inside of the van with goop.
So no fire to cover the evidence, but sifting through that foam can't be easy.
It is true that a large portion of activated charcoal is manufactured using coconut husk. But for there to be enough husk left to be identified as such after all the processing to become activated charcoal? How ineffective and crappy such activated charcoal would be is hard to fathom.
In short what is done on CSI is only remotely related to actual fact.
On our last run we accidentally cacked a security guard. As already covered generally they send the real investigators for things like people that count dieing. A security employee dieing should be enough to send out at least a few people to check around and collect evidence in case it points to known criminals or can be used in the future if a suspect turns up or cases start connecting. Especially since this was on the University of Washington campus, so a somewhat public event. To try slow down the forensics a couple team members set fire to a hijacked vehicle when abondoning it. The result sort of worked, as it triggered a fire suppressing foam system that covered the inside of the van with goop.
So no fire to cover the evidence, but sifting through that foam can't be easy.
A coworker of mine used to teach forensic chemistry classes in graduate school and he's always laugh at the CSI shows. The norm is an office that does not have enough budget nor time to examine every aspects of a case.
In regards to the hitman, because it is very, very hard to find to link the hitman with the victim, they try to discourage it via the punishments in crim law. As mentioned by other folks before, the investigation is usually working from a list of known suspects (people who knew the victim), if there is no tie between the person (hitman) and the victim, then it's very, very hard to connect them.
If the runners are really really sloppy and very very destructive in regards to property and lives, then I can a lot of resources poured into identifying the runners and such.
In regards to the hitman, because it is very, very hard to find to link the hitman with the victim, they try to discourage it via the punishments in crim law. As mentioned by other folks before, the investigation is usually working from a list of known suspects (people who knew the victim), if there is no tie between the person (hitman) and the victim, then it's very, very hard to connect them.
If the runners are really really sloppy and very very destructive in regards to property and lives, then I can a lot of resources poured into identifying the runners and such.
Thanks for the feedback people. I agree that current day forensics is most usefull in eliminating known suspects, not the tv style locateomatic, but i was kinda figuring in hi-tch advances for 2060+. Since the human genome has been mapped a genetic sample can be used to extrapolate base characteristics (height, eye color, hair color, metatype etc etc) and with the aid of magic even more details could be found.
However, from your feedback i think that the process itself would have to be an extremely costly one, and the runners actions would have to be great indeed to warrant their use. If they off the comissioner and his family, then sure, no expense spared, but for the basics it's unlikely.
I will also bring my players up to speed with the possability of forensics being used in rare cases, so they are aware and can take precautions as they warrant. Most likely a plot hook only, but if i feel they are getting way too sloppy then i can use it as a way to get them back on their toes
Thanks
Juzzman
However, from your feedback i think that the process itself would have to be an extremely costly one, and the runners actions would have to be great indeed to warrant their use. If they off the comissioner and his family, then sure, no expense spared, but for the basics it's unlikely.
I will also bring my players up to speed with the possability of forensics being used in rare cases, so they are aware and can take precautions as they warrant. Most likely a plot hook only, but if i feel they are getting way too sloppy then i can use it as a way to get them back on their toes
Thanks
Juzzman
Yeah, I wish it were more clear exactly what forensics can and can't do in SR. I'm never sure whether to doom the PCs to Bubba the Love Troll or not.
Well, Bubba the Love Troll really loves having fresh PC's for his cell. He heartily endorses the forensics depicted in the CSI shows... 
Also, the one thing that the shows never really show is the limitations in the processes involved. Consider that stable isotope analysis 'commonly' used in archaeology are also used in certain capital crimes to identify the remains of a skeleton as deriving from a given locality. (Commonly strontium and oxygen.) Yet recent, currently unpublished, evidence goes some way in showing that the interpretative paradigms utilised in both strontium and oxygen isotope analysis are currently not very well understood. (E.g. In human samples with known origins, strontium isotopes provide a widely divergent signal even for fairly restricted geologies, and oxygen recovers birth locality only to one standard deviation...)
Suffice to say that the techniques are not always the 'bees-knees' that they are made out to be.
Kage
Suffice to say that the techniques are not always the 'bees-knees' that they are made out to be.
Kage
| QUOTE (PBTHHHHT) |
| Well, Bubba the Love Troll really loves having fresh PC's for his cell. He heartily endorses the forensics depicted in the CSI shows... |
I just flashed to possible trid commercial...
"Incompetant Shadowrunners gumming up your game? Are you a victim of munchkinism or rules lawyering? Have your runners shown up on the C.L.U.E. files?
...more than once?
...recently?
Don't despair. Bubba the Troll is here to help.
*enter nine foot tall troll. His face looks like he used it to stop a Roadmaster. His physique says the Roadmaster got the worse end of the deal. He grins at the camera, and viewers instinctively cover their bums.*
Bubba the Troll: Buggering the Bad out of Runners since 2050."
you are not human.
| QUOTE (Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate) | ||
I just flashed to possible trid commercial... "Incompetant Shadowrunners gumming up your game? Are you a victim of munchkinism or rules lawyering? Have your runners shown up on the C.L.U.E. files? ...more than once? ...recently? Don't despair. Bubba the Troll is here to help. *enter nine foot tall troll. His face looks like he used it to stop a Roadmaster. His physique says the Roadmaster got the worse end of the deal. He grins at the camera, and viewers instinctively cover their bums.* Bubba the Troll: Buggering the Bad out of Runners since 2050." |
Reminds me of a joke I just read.
| QUOTE |
| A small white guy goes into an elevator, when he gets in there a huge black dude is standing next to him. The big black dude looks down upon the small white guy and says: "7 foot tall, 350 pounds, 20 inch dick, 3 pound left ball, 3 pound right ball, Turner Brown" The small white guy faints!! The big black dude picks up the small white guy and brings him to, slapping his face and shaking him and asks the small white guy. "What's wrong?" The small white guy says; "Excuse me but what did you say?" The big black dude looks down and says "7 foot tall, 350 pounds, 20 inch dick, 3 pound left ball, 3 pound right ball, my name is Turner Brown." The small white guy says, "Thank god, I thought you said, "Turn around." |
For reasons already stated, forensics is not a big issue.
Even being able to work out eye and hare colour is not reliable given how common it is to change these traits with cyber or bio (or good old fashioned contact lenses and hair die)
What is a big issue is thaumaturgical investigation. It is expensive but there are 2 major times when it will be used.
If you steal something of great value from a corporation with the recourses they will track you magically within hours hoping to get to you before you hand the loot over to your employer. This won’t happen all that often because it’s expensive, especially if you have to go out of the department to get the ritual team.
This is rarely worth the effort once the runners have divested themselves of the loot for the same reason as forensics.
Secondly if you impress your target with your ability and they want your services without paying they may offer to return your ritual samples in exchange for your services, thus you have a hook for an unpaid (or low payed) adventure (be it the run demanded or an attempt to regain your sample threw other means)
Edward
Even being able to work out eye and hare colour is not reliable given how common it is to change these traits with cyber or bio (or good old fashioned contact lenses and hair die)
What is a big issue is thaumaturgical investigation. It is expensive but there are 2 major times when it will be used.
If you steal something of great value from a corporation with the recourses they will track you magically within hours hoping to get to you before you hand the loot over to your employer. This won’t happen all that often because it’s expensive, especially if you have to go out of the department to get the ritual team.
This is rarely worth the effort once the runners have divested themselves of the loot for the same reason as forensics.
Secondly if you impress your target with your ability and they want your services without paying they may offer to return your ritual samples in exchange for your services, thus you have a hook for an unpaid (or low payed) adventure (be it the run demanded or an attempt to regain your sample threw other means)
Edward
| QUOTE (Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate) |
| I just flashed to possible trid commercial... "Incompetant Shadowrunners gumming up your game? Are you a victim of munchkinism or rules lawyering? Have your runners shown up on the C.L.U.E. files? ...more than once? ...recently? Don't despair. Bubba the Troll is here to help. *enter nine foot tall troll. His face looks like he used it to stop a Roadmaster. His physique says the Roadmaster got the worse end of the deal. He grins at the camera, and viewers instinctively cover their bums.* Bubba the Troll: Buggering the Bad out of Runners since 2050." |
Ahhh, but what if the said incompetent shadowrunner is a 10ft tall troll with more dermal armor than usual and has spike growing out of his body. His face looks like he used it to stop a Thor shot and he's sitting on... OMFG! It looks like the satellite that fired the Thor got hit by it when the troll headed the shot back into orbit. He grins at Bubba the Love Troll who instintively covers his bum.
well i have to say reading this has been interesting, my group whenever we have to deal with forensic evidence has a set policy,
douse it in gas, (petrol to you euro folk)
drop a white phosforus grenade on it
run like hell
douse it in gas, (petrol to you euro folk)
drop a white phosforus grenade on it
run like hell
Actually my group recently had to deal with forensics from the OTHER side.
They joined a forensics team (with a helpful Lone Star contact) and took samples from a house of a murder/kidnap scene so they could get DNA samples of the kidnapped.
Then they did an astral trace from the DNA (very hard, but doable) and rescued the hostage literally one millisec before her brains got blown out.
It was fun when they were searching for hair in the carpet and struck out because the damned assassins had VACUUMED, then stolen the vacuum! Heh. Plus other forensics tricks like clearing the bathroom of hair, etc...
Twas interesting to pull the other side.
They joined a forensics team (with a helpful Lone Star contact) and took samples from a house of a murder/kidnap scene so they could get DNA samples of the kidnapped.
Then they did an astral trace from the DNA (very hard, but doable) and rescued the hostage literally one millisec before her brains got blown out.
It was fun when they were searching for hair in the carpet and struck out because the damned assassins had VACUUMED, then stolen the vacuum! Heh. Plus other forensics tricks like clearing the bathroom of hair, etc...
Twas interesting to pull the other side.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Ahhh, but what if the said incompetent shadowrunner is a 10ft tall troll with more dermal armor than usual and has spike growing out of his body. His face looks like he used it to stop a Thor shot and he's sitting on... OMFG! It looks like the satellite that fired the Thor got hit by it when the troll headed the shot back into orbit. He grins at Bubba the Love Troll who instintively covers his bum. |
Then comes Cletus the Dragon.
| QUOTE (toturi) | ||
Ahhh, but what if the said incompetent shadowrunner is a 10ft tall troll with more dermal armor than usual and has spike growing out of his body. His face looks like he used it to stop a Thor shot and he's sitting on... OMFG! It looks like the satellite that fired the Thor got hit by it when the troll headed the shot back into orbit. He grins at Bubba the Love Troll who instintively covers his bum. |
Depends if Bubba enjoys being a catcher, or is he strictly a pitcher...
| QUOTE (warrior_allanon) |
| well i have to say reading this has been interesting, my group whenever we have to deal with forensic evidence has a set policy, douse it in gas, (petrol to you euro folk) drop a white phosforus grenade on it run like hell |
This actually brings up its own set of problems. Don't forget, more arsons are caught than go free.
| QUOTE (nezumi) | ||
This actually brings up its own set of problems. Don't forget, more arsons are caught than go free. |
Plus, there's the response time due to setting a fire if you're in some facilities, nothing like having the place go on alert because of the fire and having some exits sealed or something odd (dunno, it could happen). The fire would alert folks and depending on the place, it may set off sprinklers and other fire prevention measures like foam. Nothing like the runners getting caught in the foam or being wet, leaving a trail of where you're running in the facilities. This might be something important due to time in getting away from the place, especially if you haven't triggered the alarms.
| QUOTE (warrior_allanon) |
| well i have to say reading this has been interesting, my group whenever we have to deal with forensic evidence has a set policy, douse it in gas, (petrol to you euro folk) drop a white phosforus grenade on it run like hell |
Actually, I'm pretty sure that the fact you used a white phosphorous grenade would be a really big clue for the law. My understanding is that in arson cases the incindiaries used provides a lot of information about the arsonist.
According to most of the interrogation manuals I've read, most people are caught because they confess. This isn't to say that they account for most of the crimes, just most of the people who are convicted.
In fact as I understand it Forensics, while interesting on shows like CSI, don't account for the majority of convictions. Although I am certain they don't hurt, right?
In fact as I understand it Forensics, while interesting on shows like CSI, don't account for the majority of convictions. Although I am certain they don't hurt, right?
They do if your local crime lab is run with less controls than a Cambodian whorehouse.
| QUOTE (SL James) |
| They do if your local crime lab is run with less controls than a Cambodian whorehouse. |
LOL! I was sooo not expecting you to use that imagery/comparison... hilarious.
Ironicly, it isfar easier to get an innocent and unsophisticated person to confess than it is to get a hardened criminal to do so. This makes me wonder how many naive wage slaves are sitting on death row for jobs commited by runners. Certainly, Lone Star has to keep its arrest and conviction rates up somehow.
Unless I have an in-game reason for wanting the PCs to pick up some heat/have a wronged corp get after them, or they did something really dumb and I feel they need a warning, then I'd say very little would actually come from forensic investigation. Otherwise, I really don't feel the need to make sure that no one left a fingerprint anywhere, or that no one shed hairs when adjusting their baseball cap.
Rating 3 DNA masking: Availability 8; 
22,500; Bioindex 0
The look on the pigs' faces when their Sony Scanbuddy rule-o-one's against you: Priceless
22,500; Bioindex 0The look on the pigs' faces when their Sony Scanbuddy rule-o-one's against you: Priceless
| QUOTE (PBTHHHHT) | ||
LOL! I was sooo not expecting you to use that imagery/comparison... hilarious. |
Not when it's a close approximation to reality.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Rating 3 DNA masking: Availability 8; 22,500; Bioindex 0 The look on the pigs' faces when their Sony Scanbuddy rule-o-one's against you: Priceless |
Why does this not look familiar to me? Is it one-shot nanoware, or SR4 stuff?
Its permenant genetech from SOTA 2063. When you have DNA masking DNA scanners have to make an opposed test using their rating against your masking's rating to correctly ID you. The best DNA scanner available has a rating of 9. The Sony Scanbuddy has a rating of 2. DNA masking has no rating limit. One could get hundreds levels of masking, in theory.
There is a flat .1 bioindex cost for levels above 3 and .2 for level above 10. Every level above 10 also costs 20,000 meaning that if you can afford the absurdly good stuff then a megacorp owns you.
There is a flat .1 bioindex cost for levels above 3 and .2 for level above 10. Every level above 10 also costs 20,000
meaning that if you can afford the absurdly good stuff then a megacorp owns you.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Feb 21 2006, 05:51 AM) |
| Rating 3 DNA masking: Availability 8; 22,500; Bioindex 0 The look on the pigs' faces when their Sony Scanbuddy rule-o-one's against you: Priceless |
MY NPC with DNA Masking 15 scoffs at you and walks off.
Yes, it may be .2 Bio Index, but once the die is cast and they're going to lose magic, what's another .2? Besides, the .2 BI also adds +1 to Linking Tests using ritual magic.
Well, This may have been said, but my outlook on forensics is that they usually use evidence and then link it to motive and all that. The person usually is connected in some way. With the discrete hiring methods and selection methods used to get runners, and lack of previous contact with victim(s). most of that is bunk. So they may find a few bullets... hard to do a rifling test on a gun they never saw before, or know where to look for. They might connect you to another run or two.. but most of the time no theme would be involved there. Also, apds ammo and flechette react in a way when fired that no rifling would be found. Astral stuff faids away so they have to get there soon to get anything there. And as long as no runner gets hurt (bleeds) no dna evidence would really be left. Like someone would be suspicious of a hair left in a corp building. If your characters are careful, masks, bleach bottle in case of blood, and selective about bullets fired or carry unliscensed guns. There really isn't much outsife of eye witnesses to tie them to the run. Masks, and unconsciousness/death fix that problem.
I have a character I am playing now. Wiz with his dual heavy pistols. I am gonna buy him a mask and gel rounds. No death, no blood, no memory of my face. Buy cheap shoes that dont leave unique footprints, wear full clothing so no hair falls out. And since my runs are basically random, they really cant connect me unless they follow me from the scene. I get in and out quick, noone follows, and thanks to my rented out coffin I have a secure place to hide from the star while they try and figure out wtf happend.
I have a character I am playing now. Wiz with his dual heavy pistols. I am gonna buy him a mask and gel rounds. No death, no blood, no memory of my face. Buy cheap shoes that dont leave unique footprints, wear full clothing so no hair falls out. And since my runs are basically random, they really cant connect me unless they follow me from the scene. I get in and out quick, noone follows, and thanks to my rented out coffin I have a secure place to hide from the star while they try and figure out wtf happend.
| QUOTE (nt326) |
| Well, This may have been said, but my outlook on forensics is that they usually use evidence and then link it to motive and all that. The person usually is connected in some way. With the discrete hiring methods and selection methods used to get runners, and lack of previous contact with victim(s). most of that is bunk. So they may find a few bullets... hard to do a rifling test on a gun they never saw before, or know where to look for. They might connect you to another run or two.. but most of the time no theme would be involved there. Also, apds ammo and flechette react in a way when fired that no rifling would be found. Astral stuff faids away so they have to get there soon to get anything there. And as long as no runner gets hurt (bleeds) no dna evidence would really be left. Like someone would be suspicious of a hair left in a corp building. If your characters are careful, masks, bleach bottle in case of blood, and selective about bullets fired or carry unliscensed guns. There really isn't much outsife of eye witnesses to tie them to the run. Masks, and unconsciousness/death fix that problem. I have a character I am playing now. Wiz with his dual heavy pistols. I am gonna buy him a mask and gel rounds. No death, no blood, no memory of my face. Buy cheap shoes that dont leave unique footprints, wear full clothing so no hair falls out. And since my runs are basically random, they really cant connect me unless they follow me from the scene. I get in and out quick, noone follows, and thanks to my rented out coffin I have a secure place to hide from the star while they try and figure out wtf happend. |
Quite well thought out.
Love Trolls aside, I've been avidly reading this thread. It's been a big help to my thoughts on a very important part of Shadowrun that is often overlooked.
Rock on, everybody!
Gorb. I get so damn tired of PCs always "doing everything in full bodysuits and wearing gloves and making sure they wipe things off and vacuuming the carpet and tidying the flowers". It gets so fucking annoying. Not because I want to be able to go "HAW HAW HAW YER SO DUMB YOU TOUCHED A GLASS AND YER EYELASH FELL OUT", but because it basically boils down to them thinking that all I want to do is fuck with their characters, and that I don't want the story to be interesting and make sense.
That, and about the fiftieth time they go through the explanation of how "they can't possibly have left any evidence", I want to smack someone. I've basically decided "fine, you don't want interesting story and things to do, then waste an hour of game time arguing with me over how your character "would obviously have worn gloves" although you've never mentioned it until now.
Fucking annoying tripe. Constantly having PCs meticulously cover every square inch of their body is equally annoying as constantly having the cops show up at their doorstep for not lint-rolling their ski mask.
That, and about the fiftieth time they go through the explanation of how "they can't possibly have left any evidence", I want to smack someone. I've basically decided "fine, you don't want interesting story and things to do, then waste an hour of game time arguing with me over how your character "would obviously have worn gloves" although you've never mentioned it until now.
Fucking annoying tripe. Constantly having PCs meticulously cover every square inch of their body is equally annoying as constantly having the cops show up at their doorstep for not lint-rolling their ski mask.
| QUOTE (SL James @ Feb 21 2006, 03:13 PM) | ||
MY NPC with DNA Masking 15 scoffs at you and walks off. Yes, it may be .2 Bio Index, but once the die is cast and they're going to lose magic, what's another .2? Besides, the .2 BI also adds +1 to Linking Tests using ritual magic. |
10+ is avvailability 18. 3 is available is chargen. Given its price there is no excuse for any PC with resources A or B not to have it.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) | ||||
10+ is avvailability 18. 3 is available is chargen. Given its price there is no excuse for any PC with resources A or B not to have it. |
Bah. Chargen...
| QUOTE (eidolon) |
| Gorb. I get so damn tired of PCs always "doing everything in full bodysuits and wearing gloves and making sure they wipe things off and vacuuming the carpet and tidying the flowers". |
Have you considered telling them out of character, 'the police will not use forensics against you'? It sounds like they may be working on in-game considerations, while you're looking at OOC considerations. No wonder you don't see eye-to-eye!
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Ironicly, it isfar easier to get an innocent and unsophisticated person to confess than it is to get a hardened criminal to do so. This makes me wonder how many naive wage slaves are sitting on death row for jobs commited by runners. Certainly, Lone Star has to keep its arrest and conviction rates up somehow. |
A trained interrogator would, or rather should which doesn't guarentee anything, look for signs of a person who is confessing for the wrong reasons, or because of stress, or fatigue.
This doesn't mean everyone gets interrorgated, or even those that do get interrogated get interrogated by someone skilled or who cares enough to stop some jack ass from confessing because he needs to feel wanted.
| QUOTE (eidolon) |
| I've basically decided "fine, you don't want interesting story and things to do, then waste an hour of game time arguing with me over how your character "would obviously have worn gloves" although you've never mentioned it until now. |
There are more ways to make a storyline interesting, you don't need the star to show up to make a plot twist.. write them in that don't depend on the character. You gotta think these characters should be professionals. This is usually what they do for a living, so it makes sense to have them take it seriously. If they don't, it's not only their job, it's their lives. Expecting them to not do it is unrealistic roleplaying, they wouldn't be true to their characters. Just look for some new ways to suprise them, throw in some stuff on the astral, maybe some subplot on the J, maybe he set them up. Maybe someone found out they were coming. There are tons of ways to make interesting storylines, and genius-proof ways to screw with your PC's. Get more evil
That's just it though. It's not as though LS would NEVER have a lead on them. It's also not as though LS ALWAYS has a lead on them.
My gripe is that no matter the character concept, character background, or character attitude, they inevitably wind up in L337 ninja suits and talking about how they'll never leave evidence behind. Regardless of whether this makes sense, or whether the characters have any reason to be this paranoid (other than that they're doing illegal things), they still do it. And it's not always all at once. Usually, one PC starts ninja-suiting it all the time, and so the other players jump on that as justification for their character to ninja-suit it, etc, etc, etc.
nt326, I appreciate the comments, but it's not as though I can't GM without having LS show up to bust the PCs. That's actually part of my irritation (that the players seem to think that I'm just itching to put the heat on them). As far as the "being professionals" thing goes, I just spoke to that. It wouldn't matter if the character was a 15 year old gutter-trash rat-shaman that only bathes when the other PCs toss him in a river, and it was his third run ever. Ninja-suit.
(And to be fair, it's not a constant, over-arching issue. It's more of a "side-line annoyance". It's there, so I just work around it.)
My gripe is that no matter the character concept, character background, or character attitude, they inevitably wind up in L337 ninja suits and talking about how they'll never leave evidence behind. Regardless of whether this makes sense, or whether the characters have any reason to be this paranoid (other than that they're doing illegal things), they still do it. And it's not always all at once. Usually, one PC starts ninja-suiting it all the time, and so the other players jump on that as justification for their character to ninja-suit it, etc, etc, etc.
nt326, I appreciate the comments, but it's not as though I can't GM without having LS show up to bust the PCs. That's actually part of my irritation (that the players seem to think that I'm just itching to put the heat on them). As far as the "being professionals" thing goes, I just spoke to that. It wouldn't matter if the character was a 15 year old gutter-trash rat-shaman that only bathes when the other PCs toss him in a river, and it was his third run ever. Ninja-suit.
(And to be fair, it's not a constant, over-arching issue. It's more of a "side-line annoyance". It's there, so I just work around it.)
| QUOTE (nt326) |
| here are tons of ways to make interesting storylines, and genius-proof ways to screw with your PC's. Get more evil |
I'm pretty happy with the stories. I'm not there to screw the PCs. I don't GM to be evil. I prefer providing a realistic game, within the boundaries of the system/story/etc, to being evil.
Yes, this is what is called institutional knowledge. One PC with the forensics skill shows up, and goes on the run in his ninja suit, and all the other pcs find out why he wore the ninja suit and they say, "That's a good idea". Then everyone is wearing ninja suits.
If one of them had anything remotely resembling a forensics skill, maybe.
I'll point out that if any of them have dermal sheathing, they won't need the ninja suit, because the sheathing replaces their skin- no more shedding of dead skin particles, no more (real) hair, etc. They're also less likely to get cut by minor things.
@nick012000: Dermal sheathing is BONDED to the skin, not a full replacement for it.
Now if you wanted to go full borg...
On the topic of ninja suits: Like that's going to stop everything, if you wanted to stop all forms of physical identification from showing up you should go and rock out in a full hazmat suit (a breach will ruin this, but then the same thing with "ninja suits").
Now if you wanted to go full borg...
On the topic of ninja suits: Like that's going to stop everything, if you wanted to stop all forms of physical identification from showing up you should go and rock out in a full hazmat suit (a breach will ruin this, but then the same thing with "ninja suits").
Has anybody ever come up with rules for the mundane sterilise spell
Gas grenades filled with very strong bleach, cloren or some other powerful sanitiser. You could even do it with bug bombs but then it could be stoped buy an astute security guard.
Edward
Gas grenades filled with very strong bleach, cloren or some other powerful sanitiser. You could even do it with bug bombs but then it could be stoped buy an astute security guard.
Edward
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