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Thanee
post Feb 19 2006, 03:53 PM
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Hiyas!

Got the new Shadowrun 4th Edition (and like it so far :)), but there are some open questions, which I hope someone can clear up for me:

1) Skill Groups - Specialization - While it's clear, that you cannot specialize a Skill Group, the question still arises, whether you can specialize in one individual Skill out of a Skill Group (i.e. learn Firearms Skill Group and then take a Specialization in Pistols). Is that possible (with BP / Karma / both)?

2) Skill Groups - individual Skills - Can you pick up a Skill Group *and* raise one Skill out of it individually during character creation (i.e. learn Firearms Skill Group at 4 and then raise Pistols Skill to 5 - with BP)?

3) Skill Groups - individual Skills - When you raise an individual Skill out of a Skill Group with Karma, the Skill Group no longer exists. Is it possible to join the individual Skills together again, as a Skill Group, if you raise all the other Skills seperately, so they all have the same Rating once more?

4) Cyberware - Cyberlimb Armor - In what way does the Cyberlimb armor interact/stack with worn armor (i.e. Armor Jacket)? Does it make a difference, how many Cyberlimbs a character has? What if a character has multiple Cyberlimbs with different armor ratings? The rulebook does not go into any detail about this.

5) Cyberware - Reaction Enhancers - Do Reaction Enhancers and Wired Reflexes/Synaptic Booster work together? How about Reaction Enhancers and magically enhanced reflexes (Adept Power / Spell)?

6) Cyberware - Skillwires / Activesoft - What's the point of Rating 5 Skillwires, if there are no Rating 5 Activesofts? Anything apart from raising the maximum total Rating (2x Skillwire Rating), i.e. allowing 2x Rating 4 and 1x Rating 2 (or somesuch)?

7) Second Firearm - Dice Pool / Modifiers - When exactly do you split the dice pool, or in other words, which of the following abilities/items (hope I havn't missed any noteworthy ones) would be counted as modifiers and not split (i.e. applied to both rolls)?

7a) Skill Specialization
7b) Improved Ability (Adept Power)
7c) Reflex Recorder

That's all for now. Thank you! :)

Bye
Thanee
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Brahm
post Feb 19 2006, 04:23 PM
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1: As soon as you Specialize one Skill in the group it is no longer a Group. The only way to make it a Group again is to remove the Specialization from the Skill, which is free. But it costs you another 2 karma to reSpecialize a skill, and the second time you remove a Specialization from that Skill you will not be able to add a Specialization again.

2: No.

3: Yes, as long as there are no Specializations. See #1.

4: There are threads about this, threads that I only skimmed and did not post in.

5: The Reaction increases stack I think. There is likely someone better qualified to confirm that the magic stacks with the cyberware, but I don't see anything to suggest it doesn't. Remember though it cannot exceed the racial augmented maximum.

6: You can have more total Activesofts active at one time.

7: My understanding is that you calculated the entire pool with all modifiers, so everything on the list. Then split it. But I could be wrong there.

7c: I don't think laser sights or Smartlinks work when you are firing from both hands. Not even in just one of the two hands.

EDIT Did you edit out laser sights or Smartlinks from that list, or am I going mad? :wobble:
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TinkerGnome
post Feb 19 2006, 04:24 PM
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1&2) The rules aren't specific, but I say no to both. The rules for breaking a skill group apart into individual skills are, to my knowledge, only present in the "advance with karma" section. For all purposes, a skill group is something completely different from the skills involved. It gives you dice for those skill tests as though it were the skill, but for all intents and purposes, you don't have the skill itself. Thus no specializations.

3) Yes. I wonder what happens if you have a specialization in one, though. No clue.

5) I say yes. Reaction enhancers only indirectly add to your initiative score by raising the stat. Some spells (for instance) add straight to initiative. Those wouldn't stack, but reaction enhancers should.

7c) Reflex recorders add straight to the skill now, if you check the errata. EA doesn't add to combat skills.
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mintcar
post Feb 19 2006, 04:26 PM
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1) It is possible after character generation, with Karma. But it will split up the skill group.

2) No

3) Yes

4) Doesn't say (perhaps something to point out for the next errata?)

5) Initiative enhancements can not be stacked. I don't see any problem with allowing the Reaction enhancement of these things to stack however, as augumented Reaction is tightly caped at natural value x1.5 anyway.

6) I don't know

7) Tricky question. You could go by the clearafications in the latest errata concerning what enhancements are covered by the skill cap. If you did this, everything that specificly gives a bonus to certain tests is applied after the split, and everything that enhances a skill is applied before (the later would include reflex recorder and adept imp ability, the former would be specialization).
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Feb 19 2006, 04:38 PM
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QUOTE (Thanee)
Second Firearm - Dice Pool / Modifiers - When exactly do you split the dice pool

In the stage of adding/substracting modifiers.
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Thanee
post Feb 19 2006, 04:53 PM
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QUOTE (Brahm)
EDIT Did you edit out laser sights or Smartlinks from that list, or am I going mad? :wobble:


Yes, I just noticed the part while checking the options again, and that was obviously no longer relevant to the question. :)

Thanks!

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Thanee
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Thanee
post Feb 19 2006, 04:56 PM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
In the stage of adding/substracting modifiers.

The other 'when' (see second sentance of the question). ;)

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Thanee
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Thanee
post Feb 19 2006, 04:58 PM
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QUOTE (TinkerGnome)
5) I say yes. Reaction enhancers only indirectly add to your initiative score by raising the stat. Some spells (for instance) add straight to initiative. Those wouldn't stack, but reaction enhancers should.

7c) Reflex recorders add straight to the skill now, if you check the errata. EA doesn't add to combat skills.

5) That's pretty much what I'm thinking... you can stack indirect initiative enhancers (i.e. adding to Reaction or Intuition), but no direct initiative enhancers, like Wired Reflexes and Synaptic Booster.

7c) Yeah, my bad. Enhanced Articulation and Synthacardium are not really relevant there. Must have confused myself with the Activesofts question, looking for anything, that improves Active Skills. ;)

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Thanee
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Thanee
post Feb 19 2006, 05:04 PM
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QUOTE (Brahm @ Feb 19 2006, 04:23 PM)
4: There are threads about this, threads that I only skimmed and did not post in.


What I consider as a rule right now (without anything official) is the following:

Every Rating point of Cyberlimb Armor on any Cyberlimb is added together and then divided by 4 to get the total Ballistic/Impact Rating modifier. That would work out to a fairly reasonable total, I think.

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Thanee
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Brahm
post Feb 19 2006, 05:11 PM
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Here is one of them.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=11500

Sometimes you have to increase from the default 30 days to pick the threads up. This forum is nearly a year old, and the SR4 rules were made public 6 months ago. So it is important to increase that time frame to catch all the wisdom, and accompanying garbage.
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mintcar
post Feb 19 2006, 06:47 PM
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QUOTE (Thanee)
QUOTE (Brahm @ Feb 19 2006, 04:23 PM)
4: There are threads about this, threads that I only skimmed and did not post in.


What I consider as a rule right now (without anything official) is the following:

Every Rating point of Cyberlimb Armor on any Cyberlimb is added together and then divided by 4 to get the total Ballistic/Impact Rating modifier. That would work out to a fairly reasonable total, I think.

Bye
Thanee

Yeah. I think it should stack right on top of any armor you ware without any extra trouble, and so it needs to be limited. I was thinking of only allowing 1 armor point per cyber replacement, myself. But your suggestion is better, I think. It worked like that in Man & Machine didn't it?
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Thanee
post Feb 19 2006, 06:50 PM
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Yep, I think it was similar, havn't looked into my old Shadowrun books for a while. ;)

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Thanee
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mintcar
post Feb 19 2006, 06:56 PM
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I'd like it if a guy with only 1 cyber arm (like the lone-star lieutenant) could get an extra point of armor from that. I may still go with making armor an expensive, grade-less enhancement that gives you 1 point of armor per replacement.
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Thanee
post Feb 19 2006, 07:00 PM
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Well, a Rating 4 armored Cyberarm would grant exactly 1 point of B/I.

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Thanee
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mintcar
post Feb 19 2006, 07:07 PM
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I think that's too expensive. I read a bit in the thread Brahm provided, and some people there argue that you should be able to give your metal body bad-ass armor if you can get slim layers of cloth with like 5 points of armor.
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Thanee
post Feb 19 2006, 07:15 PM
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Yeah, realistically, a full conversion cyber-body should have way better armor than a flesh-body with some fashionable armored jacket. It's like a walking tank.

But then again, there is also the balance side of things...

Realistically, a cyberarm should also not be weaker than a flesh-arm (Str 3 max without cybertorso seems really low). Should probably be limited to the character's regular ability score, or the races unaugmented maximum.

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TinkerGnome
post Feb 19 2006, 07:29 PM
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QUOTE (Thanee)
Realistically, a cyberarm should also not be weaker than a flesh-arm (Str 3 max without cybertorso seems really low).

They start at str 3 and can get up to 3 points of enhancement without the torso. So str 6 without.

I do agree the base should be the racial average, though (so trolls start with 7, orks and dwarves 5).
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Thanee
post Feb 19 2006, 08:20 PM
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QUOTE (TinkerGnome @ Feb 19 2006, 07:29 PM)
They start at str 3 and can get up to 3 points of enhancement without the torso.  So str 6 without.


Ok, I just see, I read it wrong. Thanks! :)



Another question:

Can you *upgrade* cyberware? For example, I have Wired Reflexes-1, can I upgrade that to Wired Reflexes-2, paying the difference, or do I have to buy the higher Rating version completely, trashing the old one (or rather sell as used)?

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Thanee
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Chaos Kingpin
post Feb 19 2006, 08:37 PM
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We went over the skill groups question a bit during our character creation. Your answers are in the book, just not all in one place. We had to hunt a bit, which I don't feel like doing this instant, but here is the gist of it.

There is no reason why you would need to regroup said skills to reform a skillgroup. The point of the skillgroups is just to give you an economical way to start your character off with those skills, and to improve those skill cheaper than it would cost individually. That is the only function of the skill group. If you want to raise a skill from a skill group higher than 4 and/or specialize it just do it. After the skills are at level 4, there is no need to have them grouped any more anyway.
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Brahm
post Feb 19 2006, 08:48 PM
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QUOTE (Thanee @ Feb 19 2006, 03:20 PM)
Another question:

Can you *upgrade* cyberware? For example, I have Wired Reflexes-1, can I upgrade that to Wired Reflexes-2, paying the difference, or do I have to buy the higher Rating version completely, trashing the old one (or rather sell as used)?

There are no rules for upgrading cyberware, that was one of the things that apparently did not make the cut. There aren't even any Essense loss saving rules for replacing one piece of cyberware with another piece of cyberware. Until it is clarified in future books GMs are going to have to wing it as to whether a character can upgrade in place, get some trade-in value on old cyberware, or get hit with the full cost at the new rating.
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Thanee
post Feb 19 2006, 08:51 PM
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And another question concerning Skillwires:

Do you need a Datajack to load skillsoft, or do you simply upload the skillsoft wireless into them?

Can you load any amount of skillsoft into them (and just switch between them as a Simple Action then, having no more than 2x Rating active at a time)?

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Thanee
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Thanee
post Feb 21 2006, 08:04 AM
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Another question about Counterspelling:

Is there any limit to the number of people you can protect, or can you just protect anyone within LOS?


Also...

Is the 1 BP per Force bonding cost for foci (regardless of type) correct? It seems rather cheap. ;)

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Thanee
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Butterblume
post Feb 21 2006, 09:44 AM
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QUOTE (Thanee)
2) Skill Groups - individual Skills - Can you pick up a Skill Group *and* raise one Skill out of it individually during character creation (i.e. learn Firearms Skill Group at 4 and then raise Pistols Skill to 5 - with BP)?

The rules don't say that you can't. The example suggests it, but it is not actually stated anywhere.
The current german FAQ says, the gamemaster decides...
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Johnnycache
post Mar 2 2006, 07:10 PM
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This general thread seems like a good place to ask a question I have.

1. Say you are in the seemingly rare situation of shooting a guy with no armor with flechette ammo, which has an armor value mod of two - does that unarmored person then get to roll two armor dice?

2. Say you shoot the same t-shirt clad gentleman with a sniper rifle - does the -3 armor modifier have any effect on the perforation of his narrow torso?

My house ruling was no to both questions, but I'm curious as to 'public opinion'
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neko128
post Mar 2 2006, 07:18 PM
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QUOTE
1. Say you are in the seemingly rare situation of shooting a guy with no armor with flechette ammo, which has an armor value mod of two - does that unarmored person then get to roll two armor dice?


For this one, I'd say that as long as they have almost anything on, yes; I mean, it's not too far outside the realm of possibility for relatively weak projectiles (flechettes) to be deflected or caught up in even a fold of cloth. The armor rating still sucks, but hey, flechettes just don't penetrate things well.

QUOTE
2. Say you shoot the same t-shirt clad gentleman with a sniper rifle - does the -3 armor modifier have any effect on the perforation of his narrow torso?


I'd say no. You penetrate the armor; congratulations. This reminds me of the old "damage to barriers with a machine gun" thing. Yup, you've breached the barrier, and now it's full of very small and generally useless holes.

Then again, both of these should be vanishingly small occurences. With the prevalance of physad magical protective abilities, spell-slinger armor spells, cheap armored clothing, dermal plating, orthoskin... There are fewer and fewer places where even your average person doesn't have SOME armor protecting them.
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