 Technomancer/Magic Question, Why can't technomancers be magicians? |
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 Feb 20 2006, 08:01 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 20-February 06 Member No.: 8,284  |
I've been playing SR since second edition. Though I have visited this forum on a semi regular basis for quite some time now this is my first posting here.
First of all I apologize if this topic was discussed before but after searching for some time and only getting completely different topics I just gave up. There's one thing about SR4 that I really don't get: Why are technomancy and magic mutually exclusive? 1) If technomancy is not magical by nature, there shouldn't be any connection between the two (and so we should get mundanes, awakened, technos and people who are both). On the other hand, if technomancy is a form of magic, why aren't there some form of hybrids at least (like mystical adepts)? 2) As far as game balance is concerned this is not an issue either. Mages have always been karma sinks, technomancers seem to be even more. That means that a character that combines both will NEVER have enough karma to do even half of the things he wants. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to play such a character (and if I did I'd play a mage/hacker instead or just drop the corresponding rule in my games). I just don't like simply being told that I may not do something without being given an at least somewhat plausible reason. So I'm very curious if someone knows the reason for this rule or at least could come up with some ideas, because I couldn't. Btw, I know that this was already an issue in SR3 but with the different character generation system it was at least more understandable... |
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Feb 20 2006, 08:06 PM
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#2
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
<shrug> It's a mystery. Maybe the same synapses necessary to cast spells are used by technomancers. Maybe technomancers are an evolutionary development of the non-magicians in the metahuman genepool. Maybe an angel implodes everytime a magician uses a complex form.
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Feb 20 2006, 08:43 PM
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#3
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
I think that the rules were intended for "game balance", but are not needed, due to the double karma sink problem that you mentioned.
As far as coming up with a plausible explanation, technomancers and mages are both people who can do what they do because their brains are wired a certain unusual way. Maybe the one weird set of synapses precludes the other weird set of synapses being possible. In other words, if you are wired for magic, it short-circuits the ability to be a technomancer, and vice versa. |
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Feb 20 2006, 08:49 PM
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#4
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
I think that in a very fundamental way, technomancers' souls are on the Net. Which means tht metaphysically speaking, they aren't people, or really living, in the normal sense. Which means that they are as far from casting magic as one could possibly get.
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Feb 20 2006, 08:52 PM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Beacuse fire elementals can not be water elementals also. Some things are just too different.
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Feb 20 2006, 08:58 PM
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#6
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,486 Joined: 17-March 05 From: Michigan Member No.: 7,180 |
Riggers cannot BE drones... only control them. *sigh*
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Feb 20 2006, 11:07 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 371 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Regina Member No.: 8,145 |
One of SR's central themes through all editions has been the fact that Magic and Technology are in opposition to each other. Someone who "lives" in the technological world is at the opposite end of the spectrum from someone in the Magical world.
It's like someone being a Facist and a Communist. :) |
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| Guest_MK Ultra_* |
Feb 21 2006, 01:04 AM
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#8
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Guests |
I´d imagin Lord DEUS had planty of rigger-drones in his devine Network. But the ways of the AI are not to be known by humble SINners :P |
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Feb 21 2006, 01:18 AM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 59 Joined: 19-February 06 Member No.: 8,279 |
Resonance cancels out Magic and Astral because of its quantum flapdoodle wave frequency.
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Feb 21 2006, 02:12 AM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Well, magic workd on paradigns. The way you do magic has a lot to do with How you think about the world. I personally think that the paradign technomancers have precludes them from ever thinking is a way conducive to magic. The two skill sets require radically differing ways of thinking, that are mutually exclusive.
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Feb 21 2006, 10:58 AM
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#11
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Target Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 20-February 06 Member No.: 8,284 |
Thanks for your ideas.
Sure, but it's not done that drastically anywhere else as to just forbid something entirely. Awakened characters with cyber/bio have a far greater impact on game balance and are merely loosing some of their mojo in this case (with initiation they can even counter that).
In that case I'd imagine that Chaos Mages or similar technophiles could have the right mindset. Besides, nothing prevents mages from becoming hackers (who work with a similar skill set) and imho hackers are a lot less 'mystical' than technomancers. |
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Feb 21 2006, 11:07 AM
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#12
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398 |
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Feb 21 2006, 12:07 PM
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#13
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
HAHAHAHA Oh, man. No, seriously. HAHAHAHAHAHA |
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Feb 21 2006, 03:43 PM
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#14
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
You could always say the Technomancer Gene and the Magus Factor live at the same Chromosomal Address* (*term I just made up, I'm sure Frank will be along eventually with more correct terminology) but are different genetic sequences, hence if you have one gene you can't have the other.
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Feb 21 2006, 03:57 PM
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#15
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
its locus
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Feb 21 2006, 04:59 PM
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#16
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
To answer that -- or even discuss it adequately -- we'd need to know more about: A) The true nature of Shadowrun magic, B) The true nature of Shadowrun AIs, C) What a technomancer really is. Unfortunately we ain't got much of that data yet. Likely we'll never have enough, so that leaves the answer firmly in the realm of "GM whim." |
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Feb 21 2006, 06:38 PM
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#17
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Target Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 20-February 06 Member No.: 8,284 |
Ok, the following is mostly SR3 related since nobody knows if or how those facts will make it into SR4: - an awakened person could become an otaku if transformed by an AI (NPC only) - an otaku could become (partially) awakened due to SURGE So it can't be completely based on genetics.
I'm afraid that is propably right. Obviously it can't be helped though... |
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Feb 21 2006, 06:44 PM
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#18
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Target Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: 28-March 05 Member No.: 7,251 |
Because mages and Technomancers are the same thing, only nobody has figured it out yet. Matrix, astral, magic, technology, all the same thing seen through different filters. ??? |
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Feb 21 2006, 06:48 PM
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#19
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
We have the information to answer this. Munching out is bad, 'mmkay? What we currently lack, as Azralon outlined, is the full IC explaination. The only IC information we have are hand waving tidbits such as Technomancer body chemistry being somehow very different. Magic and Technology aren't opposites in Shadowrun. They clash and conflict at times, but Shadowrun is still where Man meets Magic and Machine. They all hang and party at the same place and influence each other. |
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Feb 22 2006, 12:42 AM
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#20
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
in-game, not enough is known about technomancers (or mages/adepts, for that matter) to say why their abilities are never expressed in the same person--or, honestly, whether or not they ever express in the same person.
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Feb 22 2006, 01:20 AM
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#21
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
To be fair, Brahne, SR is also lacking a completely coherent IC explanation for cyberware or magic or tech in general or, well, anything.
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| Guest_MK Ultra_* |
Feb 22 2006, 02:59 AM
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#22
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Guests |
Except NERPS ;)
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Feb 22 2006, 02:59 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
My reply would be... For the same reason Samuel Verner got a headache while decking. A Technomancer's mind is wired differently than a norm's; a Magician's mind is wired differently than a norm's. The differences in wiring are just... Non-compatible.
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 Feb 22 2006, 03:24 AM
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#24
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
I find it helps to rank the different aspects on the Crack Pipe Scale. How that works is you estimate, or empirically determine if that is your thing, how many pulls on a crack pipe you need for the aspect to make perfectly logical sense to you. Examples Economics of shadowrunning - One pull Basic Cyberware - Two pulls Technomancers - Looks like we are going to need a bigger bag of rocks. Anything about California - ...and a heroin rig. |
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Feb 22 2006, 03:57 AM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780 |
My theory sorta goes along with the mystery of the technomancer revolution: Otaku could (apparently) acquire limited magical potential, and mages could be turned by AI's. My guess is that with the age of wireles,s the constant bombardment of the net on those with otaku potential made it mutate/evolve. This evolution came from an excess amount of net access, which of course, made the Otaku goodness grow, etc, etc. Being that, Otaku's were baby techomancers, and never got enough of a dose to become immune to the influence of magic. Being that Otaku's burned out as they got older (or so I recall) that probably goes with the theory of a baby techno. But, when you make it bud like that, it becomes a full power of its own, and it doesn't like sharing with magic. My guess is that it involves the extremes of magic Vs. Technology, as also suggested. Mages have that inborn power and the astral plane constantly fueling them, Technomancers have the wireless net and their own brain mechanics for the technomancy. Once you go one way or another, you're too 'corrupt' for the other to find a place. Or so my theory goes anyways. |
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