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Moebius
I've been playing SR since second edition. Though I have visited this forum on a semi regular basis for quite some time now this is my first posting here.
First of all I apologize if this topic was discussed before but after searching for some time and only getting completely different topics I just gave up.

There's one thing about SR4 that I really don't get:
Why are technomancy and magic mutually exclusive?

1) If technomancy is not magical by nature, there shouldn't be any connection between the two (and so we should get mundanes, awakened, technos and people who are both). On the other hand, if technomancy is a form of magic, why aren't there some form of hybrids at least (like mystical adepts)?

2) As far as game balance is concerned this is not an issue either. Mages have always been karma sinks, technomancers seem to be even more. That means that a character that combines both will NEVER have enough karma to do even half of the things he wants.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to play such a character (and if I did I'd play a mage/hacker instead or just drop the corresponding rule in my games). I just don't like simply being told that I may not do something without being given an at least somewhat plausible reason.

So I'm very curious if someone knows the reason for this rule or at least could come up with some ideas, because I couldn't.


Btw, I know that this was already an issue in SR3 but with the different character generation system it was at least more understandable...
Ancient History
<shrug> It's a mystery. Maybe the same synapses necessary to cast spells are used by technomancers. Maybe technomancers are an evolutionary development of the non-magicians in the metahuman genepool. Maybe an angel implodes everytime a magician uses a complex form.
Glyph
I think that the rules were intended for "game balance", but are not needed, due to the double karma sink problem that you mentioned.

As far as coming up with a plausible explanation, technomancers and mages are both people who can do what they do because their brains are wired a certain unusual way. Maybe the one weird set of synapses precludes the other weird set of synapses being possible. In other words, if you are wired for magic, it short-circuits the ability to be a technomancer, and vice versa.
emo samurai
I think that in a very fundamental way, technomancers' souls are on the Net. Which means tht metaphysically speaking, they aren't people, or really living, in the normal sense. Which means that they are as far from casting magic as one could possibly get.
Serbitar
Beacuse fire elementals can not be water elementals also. Some things are just too different.
BlackHat
Riggers cannot BE drones... only control them. *sigh*
mdynna
One of SR's central themes through all editions has been the fact that Magic and Technology are in opposition to each other. Someone who "lives" in the technological world is at the opposite end of the spectrum from someone in the Magical world.

It's like someone being a Facist and a Communist. smile.gif
MK Ultra
QUOTE (BlackHat)
Riggers cannot BE drones... only control them. *sigh*

Iīd imagin Lord DEUS had planty of rigger-drones in his devine Network. But the ways of the AI are not to be known by humble SINners nyahnyah.gif
Frackula
Resonance cancels out Magic and Astral because of its quantum flapdoodle wave frequency.
PlatonicPimp
Well, magic workd on paradigns. The way you do magic has a lot to do with How you think about the world. I personally think that the paradign technomancers have precludes them from ever thinking is a way conducive to magic. The two skill sets require radically differing ways of thinking, that are mutually exclusive.

Moebius
Thanks for your ideas.

QUOTE (mdynna)
One of SR's central themes through all editions has been the fact that Magic and Technology are in opposition to each other.  Someone who "lives" in the technological world is at the opposite end of the spectrum from someone in the Magical world.

Sure, but it's not done that drastically anywhere else as to just forbid something entirely. Awakened characters with cyber/bio have a far greater impact on game balance and are merely loosing some of their mojo in this case (with initiation they can even counter that).

QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
Well, magic workd on paradigns. The way you do magic has a lot to do with How you think about the world. I personally think that the paradign technomancers have precludes them from ever thinking is a way conducive to magic. The two skill sets require radically differing ways of thinking, that are mutually exclusive.

In that case I'd imagine that Chaos Mages or similar technophiles could have the right mindset.
Besides, nothing prevents mages from becoming hackers (who work with a similar skill set) and imho hackers are a lot less 'mystical' than technomancers.
nick012000
It is a mystery!

wink.gif
SL James
QUOTE (mdynna @ Feb 20 2006, 05:07 PM)
One of SR's central themes through all editions has been the fact that Magic and Technology are in opposition to each other. Someone who "lives" in the technological world is at the opposite end of the spectrum from someone in the Magical world.

It's like someone being a Facist and a Communist. smile.gif

HAHAHAHA

Oh, man. No, seriously.

HAHAHAHAHAHA
stevebugge
You could always say the Technomancer Gene and the Magus Factor live at the same Chromosomal Address* (*term I just made up, I'm sure Frank will be along eventually with more correct terminology) but are different genetic sequences, hence if you have one gene you can't have the other.
Serbitar
its locus
Azralon
QUOTE (Moebius @ Feb 20 2006, 04:01 PM)
Why are technomancy and magic mutually exclusive?

To answer that -- or even discuss it adequately -- we'd need to know more about:

A) The true nature of Shadowrun magic,
B) The true nature of Shadowrun AIs,
C) What a technomancer really is.

Unfortunately we ain't got much of that data yet. Likely we'll never have enough, so that leaves the answer firmly in the realm of "GM whim."
Moebius
Ok, the following is mostly SR3 related since nobody knows if or how those facts will make it into SR4:

- an awakened person could become an otaku if transformed by an AI (NPC only)
- an otaku could become (partially) awakened due to SURGE

So it can't be completely based on genetics.

QUOTE (Azralon)
Unfortunately we ain't got much of that data yet. Likely we'll never have enough, so that leaves the answer firmly in the realm of "GM whim."

I'm afraid that is propably right. Obviously it can't be helped though...
The Horror

Because mages and Technomancers are the same thing, only nobody has figured it out yet. Matrix, astral, magic, technology, all the same thing seen through different filters. ???
Brahm
QUOTE (Moebius @ Feb 20 2006, 03:01 PM)
There's one thing about SR4 that I really don't get:
Why are technomancy and magic mutually exclusive?

We have the information to answer this.

Munching out is bad, 'mmkay?

What we currently lack, as Azralon outlined, is the full IC explaination. The only IC information we have are hand waving tidbits such as Technomancer body chemistry being somehow very different.

Magic and Technology aren't opposites in Shadowrun. They clash and conflict at times, but Shadowrun is still where Man meets Magic and Machine. They all hang and party at the same place and influence each other.
mfb
in-game, not enough is known about technomancers (or mages/adepts, for that matter) to say why their abilities are never expressed in the same person--or, honestly, whether or not they ever express in the same person.
SL James
To be fair, Brahne, SR is also lacking a completely coherent IC explanation for cyberware or magic or tech in general or, well, anything.
MK Ultra
Except NERPS wink.gif
neko128
My reply would be... For the same reason Samuel Verner got a headache while decking. A Technomancer's mind is wired differently than a norm's; a Magician's mind is wired differently than a norm's. The differences in wiring are just... Non-compatible.
Brahm
QUOTE (SL James @ Feb 21 2006, 08:20 PM)
To be fair, Brahne, SR is also lacking a completely coherent IC explanation for cyberware or magic or tech in general or, well, anything.

I find it helps to rank the different aspects on the Crack Pipe Scale. How that works is you estimate, or empirically determine if that is your thing, how many pulls on a crack pipe you need for the aspect to make perfectly logical sense to you.


Examples
Economics of shadowrunning - One pull
Basic Cyberware - Two pulls
Technomancers - Looks like we are going to need a bigger bag of rocks.
Anything about California - ...and a heroin rig.
Cold-Dragon
QUOTE (Moebius)
Ok, the following is mostly SR3 related since nobody knows if or how those facts will make it into SR4:

- an awakened person could become an otaku if transformed by an AI (NPC only)
- an otaku could become (partially) awakened due to SURGE

So it can't be completely based on genetics.

QUOTE (Azralon)
Unfortunately we ain't got much of that data yet. Likely we'll never have enough, so that leaves the answer firmly in the realm of "GM whim."

I'm afraid that is propably right. Obviously it can't be helped though...

My theory sorta goes along with the mystery of the technomancer revolution:

Otaku could (apparently) acquire limited magical potential, and mages could be turned by AI's. My guess is that with the age of wireles,s the constant bombardment of the net on those with otaku potential made it mutate/evolve. This evolution came from an excess amount of net access, which of course, made the Otaku goodness grow, etc, etc.


Being that, Otaku's were baby techomancers, and never got enough of a dose to become immune to the influence of magic. Being that Otaku's burned out as they got older (or so I recall) that probably goes with the theory of a baby techno.

But, when you make it bud like that, it becomes a full power of its own, and it doesn't like sharing with magic. My guess is that it involves the extremes of magic Vs. Technology, as also suggested.

Mages have that inborn power and the astral plane constantly fueling them, Technomancers have the wireless net and their own brain mechanics for the technomancy.

Once you go one way or another, you're too 'corrupt' for the other to find a place.

Or so my theory goes anyways.
Moebius
QUOTE (Brahm)
We have the information to answer this.

Munching out is bad, 'mmkay?

Honestly I don't see how you could abuse this combination, maybe except for an adept/technomancer. But I guess you get more power out of this by making an adept/hacker (as was discussed sufficiently in several threads).

Perhaps I suffer of a serious lack of imagination in this context...

QUOTE (Cold-Dragon)
Otaku could (apparently) acquire limited magical potential, and mages could be turned by AI's. My guess is that with the age of wireles,s the constant bombardment of the net on those with otaku potential made it mutate/evolve. This evolution came from an excess amount of net access, which of course, made the Otaku goodness grow, etc, etc.


Being that, Otaku's were baby techomancers, and never got enough of a dose to become immune to the influence of magic. Being that Otaku's burned out as they got older (or so I recall) that probably goes with the theory of a baby techno.

But, when you make it bud like that, it becomes a full power of its own, and it doesn't like sharing with magic. My guess is that it involves the extremes of magic Vs. Technology, as also suggested.

Mages have that inborn power and the astral plane constantly fueling them, Technomancers have the wireless net and their own brain mechanics for the technomancy.

Once you go one way or another, you're too 'corrupt' for the other to find a place.

I think I like that explanation.
hyzmarca
The thing is that there should be magicial technomancers. I find it hard to believe that not a single magically active character was surfing the matrix when the second crash hit although it is possible that JackBNimble intentionally let all the magicians die.

Of course, 'there are no magical technomancers' could be just like 'there are no social adepts', 'immortal elves do not exist', 'there is no way around the 6 essence cyberware limit', and the most hillarious one of all 'wyverns are not related to dragons in any way.' rotfl.gif

Understanding Technomancers requires understand the nature of JackBNimble since it was Jack that spawned the first technos. Jack seems to be a sentient or semi-sentient program with the power to rip people minds out of their bodies in such a way that they can exist fully conscious within a computer network and then shove the mind back into the body at a later date.

It is unknown exactly how Jack unties the mind from the brain and it probably never will be. Usually, such a feat can only accomplished using Astral Projection. It is not impossible that Jack has a form of the Astral Gateway power that allows Astral Projection into the Matrix. It should be impossible, but since SR4 and System Failure treat the matrix almost as a Plane that can't be ruled out.

Jack's origins remain a mystery and untill they are rvealed the orgins of its creations will also remain a mystery. Was technomantic power an accidental byproduct of the processs or did jack intend to create Technomancers? Is Jack opperating of his own free will or under a preprogramed agenda and what are his goals either way?

Where did Jack come from? Dunkie suggested it orginated from another world. This is usually taken to mean another planet. The Red Obsidimen of Mars are often cited as Jack's creators but other more distant planets are possible.

World can also be synomous Age as in The Sixth World. Jack could have been programed by a civilization that predated the Age of Dragons and remained dormant in the Loremaster's memory crystals untill computers were reinvented. Jack could have been programed by a future Seventh World civilization and sent back in time to save minds from the Scourge.

Jack could have also been programed in a metaplane. The events of Harlequin's back show that there are many metaplanes with a wide variety of tech levels. A metaphysical program created on a metaphysical computer would have metaphysical powers.

Of course, all this speculation brings us back to one point. We don't know. More importantly, I don't thing the devolpers know.
mfb
eh? JackBNimble spawned ghosts in the machine, not technomancers.
hyzmarca
JackBNinble didn't create Ghosts in the Machine, per se. The only Ghost in the Machine that it did create, Captin Chaos, it deemed 'flawed' because the Captain remained aware.

Jack simply "saved" people. The original Technomancers were severed from their meatbods during the crash but have no memory of what happened. This sounds a lot like the "saving" that JackBNimble intended to do. The minds remained intact by unaware. Unfortunatly, nothing that I have seen comes right out and states that JackBNimble put his charges back into their meatbods. If he had it fits with the Technomancer fluff in System Failure. If not then it is just a coincidence.

Technomancers may be a product of JackBNimble or it may just be a natural side effect of being stranded in the Matrix away from the meatbod. The fact that new Technomancers are emerging suggests the former. Something must be making them and I don't buy that it is a result of genetic mutations caused by RF bombardment.
Ranneko
That is one theory.

But we only see JackBNimble work it's funky stuff on one person.

Captain Chaos.
mfb
where does it say that the Cap was the only GitM that JackBNimble created? he was the only one they wrote a story about being created, sure. i suppose it's possible JackBNimble created technomancers, too.
MK Ultra
Iīm quiet an otaku-analphabet, but I think Otaku and TMs are basicly the same only in another environment (SR4 says, that many otaku became TMs). So Iīll throw in another Question:

What is the Deep Resonance? (and what is the Dissonance)?
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (MK Ultra @ Feb 22 2006, 04:56 PM)
Iīm quiet an otaku-analphabet, but I think Otaku and TMs are basicly the same only in another environment (SR4 says, that many otaku became TMs).

Unfortunately this is definately untrue. Otaku in sr3 really had no metaphysical explainnation necessary. All they really needed was a brain that was wired a bit differently, to be able to handle "raw" ASIST signals and interpret them as if they were a deck. In this way Otaku-ness was something like a specialized form of autism: no "special powers" are needed to explain how they work, at least nothing that shouldn't theoretically be within the bounds of "normal" humannity. Note that they couldn't just touch a jackpoint and log in "organically"; they still needed the datajack and ASIST converter to be able to use the Matrix.

sr4 technos are something more: specifically the ability to transmit and receive radio waves. Such an ability really makes very little sense from a biological point of view, and seeing as there appears to be no evidence of an organic antenna--if there were it would be a simple matter of a frequency scan to triangulate the "source" of a techno's powers--the only way such a thing can exist is, well, magic.
MK Ultra
Well, ok, Otaku did not have to be explained with "magic", but that does not mean, they could not have been explained with "magic"!
Endgame50
QUOTE (mfb)
where does it say that the Cap was the only GitM that JackBNimble created? he was the only one they wrote a story about being created, sure. i suppose it's possible JackBNimble created technomancers, too.

Where's this story? Interested in this sort of stuff.
mfb
System Crash. er, Critical Er--er, Failure Crash. fuck. that book.
boskop-albatros
QUOTE (hyzmarca)


It is unknown exactly how Jack unties the mind from the brain and it probably never will be. Usually, such a feat can only accomplished using Astral Projection. It is not impossible that Jack has a form of the Astral Gateway power that allows Astral Projection into the Matrix. It should be impossible, but since SR4 and System Failure treat the matrix almost as a Plane that can't be ruled out.


Where did Jack come from? Dunkie suggested it orginated from another world. This is usually taken to mean another planet. The Red Obsidimen of Mars are often cited as Jack's creators but other more distant planets are possible.

World can also be synomous Age as in The Sixth World. Jack could have been programed by a civilization that predated the Age of Dragons and remained dormant in the Loremaster's memory crystals untill computers were reinvented. Jack could have been programed by a future Seventh World civilization and sent back in time to save minds from the Scourge.

first thing lets just say that Technomancers are Magiciana who's brains were exposed and therefor rewired at a young age to use the Matix Magically-that way BOTH sides are happy

Second-Who are the red Obsisdimen od Mars

Thirdly-You've got some good guesses there hyzmarca
mfb
both sides?
fistandantilus4.0
sorry boskop, but tchnomancers being the 'Matrix way Adept' just seems to defeat the purpose. Shadowrun should be magic meets man meets machine. Not Magic meets man and eats the machine whole to become the all pervading force.
nick012000
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
sorry boskop, but tchnomancers being the 'Matrix way Adept' just seems to defeat the purpose. Shadowrun should be magic meets man meets machine. Not Magic meets man and eats the machine whole to become the all pervading force.

Besides, there already are 'matrix way adepts'. wink.gif
hyzmarca
QUOTE (boskop-albatros)
Second-Who are the red Obsisdimen od Mars

Attached to Dunkie's will were some photographs which clearly depicted a flying saucer on Mars. These pictures are taken by some (myself included) to show that the Megacorps know about a thriving civilization on the surface of Mars but are covering it up. Others think that the photos are just a hoax.

Obsidimen were living humaniod rocks that existed during the Age of Legend and have yet to make a reapearance in the Sixth World. They were the only playable namegiver rance that wasn't metahuman (they're the result of a torid love affair between an Earth Elemental and Mount Rushmore or something biggrin.gif ).

Now, since there is nothing on Mars but red rocks and some ice, it seems obvious that the Martians are red rocks. Thus, the Red Obsidimen of Mars.
Rotbart van Dainig
The picture with the flying saucer is a fake - the rest are real... see Missions.
MK Ultra
Rotbart is right (although his Nickname does suggest he knows more about red obsidimen and may in fact be here to mislead us wink.gif).

BTW, TīSkrang were also non-human Namegivers, IIRC.
nick012000
QUOTE (MK Ultra)
Rotbart is right (although his Nickname does suggest he knows more about red obsidimen and may in fact be here to mislead us wink.gif).

BTW, TīSkrang were also non-human Namegivers, IIRC.

As were the Windlings and Dragons (even if the latter aren't a PC race, they're still Namegivers).
Malicant
No, they are not. They are 'namemakers' or something fancy like that. nyahnyah.gif
hyzmarca
I had always assumed that T'skrang were simply very reptelian metahumans and Windlings simply very small winged metahumans. Considering how far the different confirmed metahuman races had diverged from one another at that part in the mana cycle it isn't impossible.
nick012000
Well, even in the ED Corebook, it states that there's a legendary race that the metahumans + obsidimen were said to be descended from (listing them all by name). It excludes Windlings (who already exist in the SR world, they're just not sentient yet) and T'skrang (who are currently asleep in the lairs of assorted dragons, because they're not fertile enough to produce children yet).
Brahm
QUOTE (nick012000 @ Feb 24 2006, 04:00 PM)
Well, even in the ED Corebook, it states that there's a legendary race that the metahumans + obsidimen were said to be descended from (listing them all by name). It excludes Windlings (who already exist in the SR world, they're just not sentient yet) and T'skrang (who are currently asleep in the lairs of assorted dragons, because they're not fertile enough to produce children yet).

That being speculation.

Just like the speculation that in Shadows of Asia the people sited protected by the wierd, rocklike armor spell on that powersite inland island in the Sebirian outback are actually Obsisdimen.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (nick012000)
Well, even in the ED Corebook, it states that there's a legendary race that the metahumans + obsidimen were said to be descended from (listing them all by name). It excludes Windlings (who already exist in the SR world, they're just not sentient yet) and T'skrang (who are currently asleep in the lairs of assorted dragons, because they're not fertile enough to produce children yet).

Check the Paranormal Animals of Europe book. There's a windling there in the text. Not a Pixie Windling-to-be, but an actual windling. I don't hav ethe page ref handy, but I'm sure somone else can come up wit hthe quote if you'd care to have it.
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