 Software tools, Are they Required? |
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 Feb 23 2006, 01:33 PM
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#1
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Running, running, running  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769  |
As the sub title suggests, does programming require tools? I know in Sr3, i think you just needed a computer system to do it...
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Feb 23 2006, 01:41 PM
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#2
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Since programming isn't a build/repair test I'd say No.
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Feb 23 2006, 02:13 PM
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#3
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
it isnt?
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Feb 23 2006, 02:24 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 165 Joined: 30-September 04 Member No.: 6,715 |
I'd suggest checking out the relavent section - its in Matrix, P76.
But you basically need A) Time. Lots of it, depending on the program that you're coding. B) A good computer (programming) skill C) A computer with enough memory - preferably double the amout required for the program free. Added bonuses A) Knowledge skills in the relvent programming field - these reduce the TN for the programming test, allowing more successes, thus less time. B) Programming suite, of a level equal to your programming skill - this will roughly halve the time and may give complimentary dice. C) Access to a mainframe. D) Time |
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Feb 23 2006, 02:33 PM
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#5
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,486 Joined: 17-March 05 From: Michigan Member No.: 7,180 |
Minimally, yes, I think it would require a commlink or computer of some sort... probably with a good enough system to run the program you eventually intend to create.
You can't just create a program using a coconut and some string. |
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Feb 23 2006, 02:46 PM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
@Westiex
There is no Matrix book in SR4. |
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Feb 23 2006, 02:56 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 371 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Regina Member No.: 8,145 |
I totally see the need for a Software Kit. Basically I see that as the SR equivalent of MS Visual Studio. Without the Software Kit you're basically programming in Notepad. Ask any professional programmer you know and they'll tell you that coding in an IDE like Visual Studio certainly makes things easier/faster than doing it in Notepad. So, an SR *could* program without the tools, but I could certainly justify the penalty given in the B/R modifiers table.
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Feb 23 2006, 03:05 PM
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#8
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,486 Joined: 17-March 05 From: Michigan Member No.: 7,180 |
And what kind of program would a software facility be? :-)
I think, in the Unwired book, we're likely to see the "Programming Suite" program return to SR4 - which was basically this same concept, except that it had ratings (which tools do not, really). For the time being, saying a player needs a :nuyen: 500 software tool (suite) to program without penalty seems fine to me. Course, if your shadowrunners have months to sit around writing programs, you sort of need to kick them in the rear and give them some missions to do. |
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Feb 23 2006, 03:33 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 371 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Regina Member No.: 8,145 |
A small army of eager fan-boy co-op students willing to help you write your program! |
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Feb 23 2006, 03:43 PM
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#10
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
His point, I think, is that he is addressing what has been considered required tools for the job in the past. Basically a computer, but a beefier one that normal. A literal translation would lead to just requiring a Response 2 commlink, assuming they aren't running one or more Agents or other programs to help out, since any single program can fit an a Response 1 commlink. @BlackHat Tools do have a rating after a fashion. On page 125.
Potentially different levels of Superior is roughly equivalent to multiple ratings. Combining all this I'd like come to: Commlink Response 2 only = -2 Commlink Response 3 and Programming Agent = +Agent Rating Working on a Mainframe (large node) +1 (superior working conditions) Access to Design documents for this program type +2 (AR assumed), requires Browse running so Commlink 4 Of course even with all these bonuses a Team is still likely about the only way to build anything but the most trival program in what I would call a reasonable, meaning playable, amount of time. |
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Feb 23 2006, 03:57 PM
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#11
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 16-February 06 From: Goring-On-Thames, UK Member No.: 8,271 |
Ummm,
sorry to disappoint, but I program for a living and I use a simple text editor, as do many people I know. It is quite common to do so on Linux/UNIX systems and derivates. It depends on what you are coding, in what language etc. There are however various other tools, like Revision Systems, Debuggers, Compilers etc etc. Also, there are enough free tools about which are in no way inferior to commercial, proprietery products. As such, I am unsure you require anything other than the hardware (as operating systems seem to be implied in those costs in SR) Thank you bladepoet |
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Feb 23 2006, 04:04 PM
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#12
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Free tool does not mean non-existant tool. :) Past canon is that there is only 1 programming language in SR, Hololisp. It can be assumed that a very basic development environment in the form of being able to manipulate and order icons around. I suggest not trying too hard to equate SR computing to RL. I find general computing in SR is about a 3 or 4 Pull on the Crack Pipe Scale, and in places 5 or 6 Pulls. For example decking via satelite link. |
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Feb 23 2006, 05:06 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 371 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Regina Member No.: 8,145 |
Thanks Brahm, that was basically my point. I certainly don't want to wade into another thread that tries to reconcile SR and RL computing. (No one even THINK the word "encryption" please)
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Feb 23 2006, 05:33 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 165 Joined: 30-September 04 Member No.: 6,715 |
Negative on that. SR(3) Matrix book offers several different languages, applicable only if you take into account the 'bug' rules. (P81) And, ah. No, I didn't mean that thats what was established, I just didn't see the SR4 subforum bit. |
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Feb 23 2006, 06:54 PM
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#15
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Wa, USA Member No.: 1,139 |
Obviously there is some tool, either included with the OS or Freeware. It may not give you any extra dice though. I would rule an advanced IDE would give you dice on some types of programs(big complicated ones), because although you could write it all in a text editior the bigger the program the harder it is for your brain to keep track of and thus why the IDEs exist.
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Feb 23 2006, 08:03 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 19-January 04 Member No.: 5,992 |
Ha-ha! Renraku Teng.
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Feb 23 2006, 08:34 PM
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#17
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
it's easily possible that programming in SR is impossible without specialized tools. today, sure, you can just open up any text editor and start typing in code--but SR code is not text-based, it's VR-based. see, what happens is, you take code objects and assemble them like legos. the code objects themselves come from LA LA LA NOT THINKING ABOUT IT.
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Feb 23 2006, 08:51 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 504 Joined: 8-November 05 From: North Vancouver, BC Member No.: 7,936 |
One the same topic, is there any rumours/indications there will be rules on expert systems that can be made/bought to make the programs??
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