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> Software tools, Are they Required?
Aku
post Feb 23 2006, 01:33 PM
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As the sub title suggests, does programming require tools? I know in Sr3, i think you just needed a computer system to do it...
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The Jopp
post Feb 23 2006, 01:41 PM
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Since programming isn't a build/repair test I'd say No.
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Aku
post Feb 23 2006, 02:13 PM
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it isnt?

QUOTE (p.240)

Coding your own programs
...Programming software is handled like other build tasks as noted under using technical skills to build and repair p. 125

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Westiex
post Feb 23 2006, 02:24 PM
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I'd suggest checking out the relavent section - its in Matrix, P76.

But you basically need

A) Time. Lots of it, depending on the program that you're coding.
B) A good computer (programming) skill
C) A computer with enough memory - preferably double the amout required for the program free.

Added bonuses

A) Knowledge skills in the relvent programming field - these reduce the TN for the programming test, allowing more successes, thus less time.
B) Programming suite, of a level equal to your programming skill - this will roughly halve the time and may give complimentary dice.
C) Access to a mainframe.
D) Time
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BlackHat
post Feb 23 2006, 02:33 PM
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Minimally, yes, I think it would require a commlink or computer of some sort... probably with a good enough system to run the program you eventually intend to create.

You can't just create a program using a coconut and some string.
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Serbitar
post Feb 23 2006, 02:46 PM
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@Westiex

There is no Matrix book in SR4.
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mdynna
post Feb 23 2006, 02:56 PM
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I totally see the need for a Software Kit. Basically I see that as the SR equivalent of MS Visual Studio. Without the Software Kit you're basically programming in Notepad. Ask any professional programmer you know and they'll tell you that coding in an IDE like Visual Studio certainly makes things easier/faster than doing it in Notepad. So, an SR *could* program without the tools, but I could certainly justify the penalty given in the B/R modifiers table.
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BlackHat
post Feb 23 2006, 03:05 PM
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And what kind of program would a software facility be? :-)

I think, in the Unwired book, we're likely to see the "Programming Suite" program return to SR4 - which was basically this same concept, except that it had ratings (which tools do not, really).

For the time being, saying a player needs a :nuyen: 500 software tool (suite) to program without penalty seems fine to me.

Course, if your shadowrunners have months to sit around writing programs, you sort of need to kick them in the rear and give them some missions to do.
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mdynna
post Feb 23 2006, 03:33 PM
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QUOTE (BlackHat)
And what kind of program would a software facility be? :-)

A small army of eager fan-boy co-op students willing to help you write your program!
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Brahm
post Feb 23 2006, 03:43 PM
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QUOTE (Serbitar @ Feb 23 2006, 09:46 AM)
@Westiex

There is no Matrix book in SR4.

His point, I think, is that he is addressing what has been considered required tools for the job in the past. Basically a computer, but a beefier one that normal. A literal translation would lead to just requiring a Response 2 commlink, assuming they aren't running one or more Agents or other programs to help out, since any single program can fit an a Response 1 commlink.

@BlackHat Tools do have a rating after a fashion. On page 125.
QUOTE
Tools and/or Parts Are:
Inadequate 2
Unavailable 4 or not allowed
Superior +1 or more


Potentially different levels of Superior is roughly equivalent to multiple ratings.

Combining all this I'd like come to:

Commlink Response 2 only = -2
Commlink Response 3 and Programming Agent = +Agent Rating

Working on a Mainframe (large node) +1 (superior working conditions)

Access to Design documents for this program type +2 (AR assumed), requires Browse running so Commlink 4

Of course even with all these bonuses a Team is still likely about the only way to build anything but the most trival program in what I would call a reasonable, meaning playable, amount of time.
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bladepoet
post Feb 23 2006, 03:57 PM
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Ummm,

sorry to disappoint, but I program for a living and I use a simple text editor, as do many people I know.

It is quite common to do so on Linux/UNIX systems and derivates.

It depends on what you are coding, in what language etc.

There are however various other tools, like Revision Systems, Debuggers, Compilers etc etc.

Also, there are enough free tools about which are in no way inferior to commercial, proprietery products.

As such, I am unsure you require anything other than the hardware (as operating systems seem to be implied in those costs in SR)

Thank you

bladepoet
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Brahm
post Feb 23 2006, 04:04 PM
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QUOTE (bladepoet @ Feb 23 2006, 10:57 AM)
Ummm,

sorry to disappoint, but I program for a living and I use a simple text editor, as do many people I know.

It is quite common to do so on Linux/UNIX systems and derivates.

It depends on what you are coding, in what language etc.

There are however various other tools, like Revision Systems, Debuggers, Compilers etc etc.

Also, there are enough free tools about which are in no way inferior to commercial, proprietery products.

As such, I am unsure you require anything other than the hardware (as operating systems seem to be implied in those costs in SR)

Thank you

bladepoet

Free tool does not mean non-existant tool. :)

Past canon is that there is only 1 programming language in SR, Hololisp. It can be assumed that a very basic development environment in the form of being able to manipulate and order icons around.

I suggest not trying too hard to equate SR computing to RL. I find general computing in SR is about a 3 or 4 Pull on the Crack Pipe Scale, and in places 5 or 6 Pulls. For example decking via satelite link.
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mdynna
post Feb 23 2006, 05:06 PM
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Thanks Brahm, that was basically my point. I certainly don't want to wade into another thread that tries to reconcile SR and RL computing. (No one even THINK the word "encryption" please)
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Westiex
post Feb 23 2006, 05:33 PM
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QUOTE
Past canon is that there is only 1 programming language in SR, Hololisp. It can be assumed that a very basic development environment in the form of being able to manipulate and order icons around.


Negative on that. SR(3) Matrix book offers several different languages, applicable only if you take into account the 'bug' rules. (P81)

And, ah. No, I didn't mean that thats what was established, I just didn't see the SR4 subforum bit.
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tete
post Feb 23 2006, 06:54 PM
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Obviously there is some tool, either included with the OS or Freeware. It may not give you any extra dice though. I would rule an advanced IDE would give you dice on some types of programs(big complicated ones), because although you could write it all in a text editior the bigger the program the harder it is for your brain to keep track of and thus why the IDEs exist.
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Dissonance
post Feb 23 2006, 08:03 PM
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Ha-ha! Renraku Teng.
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mfb
post Feb 23 2006, 08:34 PM
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it's easily possible that programming in SR is impossible without specialized tools. today, sure, you can just open up any text editor and start typing in code--but SR code is not text-based, it's VR-based. see, what happens is, you take code objects and assemble them like legos. the code objects themselves come from LA LA LA NOT THINKING ABOUT IT.
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Drace
post Feb 23 2006, 08:51 PM
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One the same topic, is there any rumours/indications there will be rules on expert systems that can be made/bought to make the programs??
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