 Bioware Grades Confusion, Delta Bioware??? |
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 Feb 24 2006, 02:51 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 2 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,300  |
I'm a bit confused as to how the grades of implants work with Bioware in SR4.
pg. 303 says "Cyberware and Bioware comes in four grades - Standard, Alphaware, Betaware and Deltaware" "The prices for cyberware and bioware presented in this chapter are for standard 'ware (with the exception of cultured bioware - see pg. 339)" But all pg.339 says is - "Cultured Bioware must be tailormade for the intended recipient, so it is more expensive and takes longer to acquire." I know how it used to work in previous ed.s but dont get if cultured is either - a/ gradeless (i.e. cant be improved), but normal bio can b/ effectively already alpha - so can be improved but costs will be a bit odd. c/ the ref to bioware on pg. 303 is erroneous and should be ignored for grades Any ideas? Dort the mildly confused |
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 Feb 24 2006, 02:54 PM
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#2
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,600 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
I think cultured is just cultured and completely seperate from grades now (in earlier editions it basically was the higher grade). It's just a descriptor, which has no real game effect (more like an explanation for the higher prices).
Bye Thanee |
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Feb 24 2006, 02:59 PM
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#3
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
So let me see if I have this right, since I'm still a little confused too.
Cyberware can be bought: standard alpha beta delta Normal bioware can be bought: standard alpha beta delta can NOT be bought cultured, as in previous editions Cultured bioware can be bought: standard alpha beta delta Normal bioware and cultured bioware are game-mechanically identical, one can't be changed into another, it is a complete irrelevant descriptor, relevant for fluff text only. Right? |
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Feb 24 2006, 03:03 PM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
right, the pros go for delta synaptic accelerators
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Feb 24 2006, 03:22 PM
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#5
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
+3 Reaction and +3 IP for 2.4Mil, costing only 0.75 essence, or (more likely) 0.375 essence if you've got more cyber than bio.
Wow. What does delta do to the availability? The cyberware grade table only mentions money and essence costs. |
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Feb 24 2006, 03:26 PM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
at the moment? nothing
without capping the number of tries, (to skill for examample) it doesnt matter anyways . .. |
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 Feb 24 2006, 03:30 PM
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#7
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,600 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
It changes AV to unlimited. ;) Honestly, that's a good point, really. There should be some sort of change in AV. Are there still only six (or so) delta clinics in the world? Or are there now more and it's actually reasonably possible to aquire that stuff? Bye Thanee P.S. Besides, even standard Synaptic Boosters 3 are a rather good deal. Only 0.75 Essence loss for your average Samurai, and at 240k even quite affordable (at some point). |
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Feb 24 2006, 03:55 PM
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#8
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
I wrote up a post like this a number of weeks ago, but my search-fu is lacking today. So, the price I pay is that I'll have to recreate it all over again.
Okay, so we have two grades of implants mentioned and official, capitalized nomenclature to describe those grades: "Basic" and "Alpha." Note that page 84 goes on to describe Basic cyberware and Alpha cyberware, but makes no effort to mention bioware. So while the existence of Basic and Alpha cyber is clearly demonstrated, the existence of Basic and Alpha bioware has been omitted from the examples for whatever reason.
The existence of graded bioware is now clearly shown. We also now have a list of all of the grades, although they're not capitalized and the first one is named noticeably differently. The grades are apparently "Standard," "Alphaware," "Betaware," and "Deltaware." Right, so I just assumed that "Basic" = "Standard" and that the two terms just didn't get synchronized in the editing process. Then we're told that all of the prices in the gear section are for Standard cyberware and bioware.... with the exception of Cultured bioware. So "Cultured" is apparently not the same as "Standard." That's unfortunate, because it breaks our paradigm of 4 implant grades. Two possibilities: 1) Standard/Basic/Cultured, Alpha, Beta, Delta. 2) Standard/Basic, Alpha, Beta, Delta, Cultured (which exists outside of the grade system). Note that the two bioware tables are labeled as "Basic" and "Cultured." This further emphasizes the idea that "Basic"="Standard" and "Basic/Standard"<>"Cultured." So option #2 seems more likely. But that still leaves us out in the cold trying to figure out what Cultured means. Is it a completely different animal that can't possess different grades, since it doesn't start out as Basic? Page 303's confusing statement refers us to page 339, so maybe that'll help clear things up.
.... And that's it. That's all it says before it goes into explanations on individual bioware implants. So, reluctantly drawing from pre-SR4 editions, we know that higher-grade cyberware is more expensive and more Essence-friendly because it: A) uses more exotic materials in its construction and B) is custom-built for the implantee. Standard cyber is "off the rack" stuff, and delta is made of, like, Martian orichalcum and nanites programmed to mimic your own DNA or whatever. So maybe that means Cultured is already "top of the line" that can't be improved upon further. In any case, the fact that Basic bioware and Cultured bioware are declared as separate categories in two places (page 303 and the bioware tables) is very important for character generation purposes. Page 84 states clearly that starting characters can have only two kinds of implants: Basic and Alpha. This seems to exclude Cultured. ~~~~~ So that's where we're at. If Cultured is "gradeless," then it can't be made to cost less Essence and it can't be purchased in chargen. If Cultured is just another type of Standard/Basic implant, then it can be graded and it can be purchased in chargen. If there's a third option or better evidence to point to either of the two I listed, I haven't seen it yet. :( Oh, and the 1.3 errata doesn't have any corrections listed for pages 84, 303, or 339. |
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Feb 24 2006, 04:00 PM
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#9
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
Until the Champion of Japanese Economic Superiority pulls off his datasteal and ultra-cultured bioware hits the market.
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Feb 24 2006, 04:09 PM
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#10
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Makes it one hell of a lot harder to get the money together to buy? :) Also depending on how the GM sees the world, you might be looking at nearly 5 million for it. Monopolized distribution channel? Check! Market dry of Deltaware? This represents a lot of stock to carry. Law Enforcement crackdown on all blackmarket or greymarket Deltaware? "Hey, these are serious low breakers. For the good of the citizens we need to get tough on Deltaware. Now if you'll excuse me I need to put away this big bag of money that just got handed to me by Deltaware manufacturers." 4.75 million :nuyen: is a lot of cash. Even an entire team of runners coming up with that much money, muchless one single runner, puts you into the catagory of a very high power level game that only the GM could have made the choice of to start with. Post Script If, as a GM, you don't like the idea of Deltaware being available then Just Say No. Be up front about it with your players. Top it off with a good IC explaination. Our GM doesn't say we CAN'T find explosives. But every one of the fixers that have been asked have explained they just don't want to risk stocking the stuff. No sane, metally capable person should because of the bombsniffer drones LoneStar regularly sends out on patrol. Of course one of our team has a contact that falls outside the mentally capable person catagory. Unfortunately not only was the C4 already allocated to blowing up Autodawg™ street vending machines, the stuff they had was decades old, and plastic explosive compound becomes unstable with age, and was also stored with "these little shiny metal things" mixed into it. :wobble: |
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Feb 24 2006, 08:38 PM
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#11
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
There's a part of me that goes "oh god" when i hear things like that, and another part that wants to play in those campaigns...
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Feb 24 2006, 08:56 PM
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#12
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Unless something radical has happened in the five years between editions no one stocks deltaware at all. It is impossible to stock deltaware. When you order deltaware you go into the delta clinic and the doctors there perform several highly invasive scans and tests on your body along with all of the standard uninvasive ones. They then send these test results and scans to professional cyberware engineers who design your deltaware from the ground up so that it is as perfect a match to your physiology as is possible. Your deltaware will work in you and you alone. To anyone else it is just overpriced betaware. At least, that is how it was in SR3. Considering the necessity of some power creep with future sourcebooks, it is possible that Zetaware will be the next hot thing. Postscript - That's some downright nasty GMing. If you can make the availability rolls then you can make the availability rolls. |
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Feb 24 2006, 09:17 PM
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#13
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
The Just Say No? It really comes down to what kind of game you are playing, and the players and GM agreeing to it up front at the beginning. Although if your character comes up with the cash you have basically already said yes to a wildly powerful character. 4.75 million will get you a at list price pair of matching T-birds. :P Although by the same street markup a of 20%-40% may apply, and 24F is one serious availability. |
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Feb 25 2006, 03:20 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727 |
...Only if availability is limited. As the book goes, you could roll and roll forever until you get the thing. My group and myself are using the -number of rolls capped by the skill- houserule and it kinda works.
I still have problems with pricing. I mean: How does the legality index affect cost? (I go "F" meaning "crackdown = +50%" and "R" a 25% increase). Would it be more expensive to get the higher availability items? (by the present rules it does necessarily have to be so if you have ample time...) Sometimes I roll availability dice and add a 10% markup for each hit. Also, fixers and middlemen charge a 5%x connection rating fee. But it does not get any "transparent". I propose a sample activity for you: A street sam, planning a field trip to amazonia is interested on getting a Combat Armor Suit with environmental adaptation and an Ares Alpha Assault Rifle, he goes and talks to his friend fixer, who has a 3 connection rating and rolls 13 dice in the availability test. (5 charisma + 5 negotiation + 3 connection rating) How long does it take him to get the items and how much does the street sam pay? Let's see if you get the same numbers I do... cheers, Max edit: I realise it's off-topic somewhat, so I am posting it as a separate item on the Sr4 forum. I'll keep track of this thread too, anyway. Plus: What about cultured bioware as Alpha? :D |
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Feb 25 2006, 03:35 PM
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#15
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
It doesn't. Since Street Index was left out nothing does. Characters buy at the listed price, no more and no less. |
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Feb 25 2006, 03:58 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 297 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 248 |
The legality index itself doesn't, but street costs depend on the "history" of the item and the black market in general. Take a look page 302, Black Market Goods and Street Costs. |
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Feb 25 2006, 03:59 PM
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#17
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Street index was always a weird animal, anyway. Sometimes it made sense, sometimes it made no sense.
Like concealability, really. |
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Feb 25 2006, 04:12 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727 |
...and that is another issue. Next will come a discussion on conceleability and it's uses. I used to be a very important factor in gear-choosing before and now it's kinda gone and I honestly miss it. I am probably going to go a little deeper than the rules in the book there.
I do not agree on players always buying at the listed price at all. Page 302 is a good starter, but check my ideas on top (or at the new topic). Personally, weird animals tend to be ignored completely, so I'd rather having clearer parameters. Cheers Max |
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Feb 25 2006, 04:15 PM
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#19
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Since there are no rules for applying these modifiers they may as well not exist. GM discression doesn't cut it here. No GM is going to write a 15 page history of every bullet, gun, and doodad a runner buys. No GM is going to write a 20,000 page dissertation that percisely maps out plack market distribution channels and politics in his shadow universe and make percise, well thought out updates to it every single session. In order to apply those modifiers correctly, fairly, and consistantly that is the level of detail that a GM needs to put into it. Anything less would be just pulling crap out of one's ass. |
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Feb 25 2006, 05:06 PM
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#20
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
The best "fix" for cost and availability is to simply increase the time between tests and cap tests with skill. Moving every time up a step (100 - 1 day, < 1k - 2 days, < 10k - 1 wk, > 10k - 2 wks) would greatly increase the attractiveness of offering extra cash for the item. Instead of getting an Alpha in 6 days, it'd take an average of 3 weeks.
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Feb 25 2006, 05:09 PM
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#21
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Limiting the number of Extended Test rolls isn't really a house rule, it is an optional rule and the setting the limit at the Skill rating is the example given. It certainly isn't the only limit you could choose though. For decking Decrypt Extended Tests for example a limit of 4 rolls works great. |
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Feb 25 2006, 05:29 PM
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#22
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
:rotfl: :wobble: Welcome to GMing 101. You don't need a 15 page history of every bullet, weapon, and widget. It isn't actually anywhere close to that bad. That small list of modifiers is pretty straight forward, although admittedly relatively sparse. That is if you don't just say screw it to bothering translating everything into and out of nuyen. The more you pay for runs in equipment, and the more you let the runners just go out and get the gear they want with a run, the less you have to worry about the limitations of Availability. |
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Feb 25 2006, 06:16 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,193 |
Doesn't this just mean that certain forms of bioware have to be cultured? All of the bioware listed as "cultured" has to do with the brain and/or nervous system. However, I don't interpret that to mean that Muscle Toner (for instance) cannot be cultured. My reading of of the grades is: Standard/Basic, Alpha, Beta, Delta/Cultured Am I missing something? |
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Feb 25 2006, 06:33 PM
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#24
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Grade are one thing, yet they don't explicitly exclude Cultured Bioware...
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Feb 25 2006, 07:20 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,193 |
Cultured bioware is described as "a higher [than delta] grade of bioware" (pg. 64), so I see no justification in saying that it can be further alpha-, beta-, or delta-graded (which would in fact be a downgrade). Also, as has already been pointed out, it says (on pg. 303) that the prices for cultured bioware are not "standard," which to my mind means that the multipliers for cost and essence have already been factored into the table (on pg. 339). That would suggest that "cultured bioware" is a separate category of bioware, and hence an exception to the normal grading rules. Otherwise the category exists for no purpose other than to cause confusion.
Nevertheless, my understanding of delta-graded 'ware (whether cyber or bio) is just that it is tailor-made for the patient. So for all practical purposes, that is identical to saying that it is cultured. |
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