It changes AV to unlimited.

Honestly, that's a good point, really. There should be some sort of change in AV.

Are there still only six (or so) delta clinics in the world?
Or are there now more and it's actually reasonably possible to aquire that stuff?

Bye
Thanee

P.S. Besides, even standard Synaptic Boosters 3 are a rather good deal. Only 0.75 Essence loss for your average Samurai, and at 240k even quite affordable (at some point).

Okay, so we have two grades of implants mentioned and official, capitalized nomenclature to describe those grades: "Basic" and "Alpha."

Note that page 84 goes on to describe Basic cyberware and Alpha cyberware, but makes no effort to mention bioware. So while the existence of Basic and Alpha cyber is clearly demonstrated, the existence of Basic and Alpha bioware has been omitted from the examples for whatever reason.

The existence of graded bioware is now clearly shown. We also now have a list of all of the grades, although they're not capitalized and the first one is named noticeably differently. The grades are apparently "Standard," "Alphaware," "Betaware," and "Deltaware."

Right, so I just assumed that "Basic" = "Standard" and that the two terms just didn't get synchronized in the editing process.

Then we're told that all of the prices in the gear section are for Standard cyberware and bioware.... with the exception of Cultured bioware. So "Cultured" is apparently not the same as "Standard." That's unfortunate, because it breaks our paradigm of 4 implant grades. Two possibilities:

1) Standard/Basic/Cultured, Alpha, Beta, Delta.
2) Standard/Basic, Alpha, Beta, Delta, Cultured (which exists outside of the grade system).

Note that the two bioware tables are labeled as "Basic" and "Cultured." This further emphasizes the idea that "Basic"="Standard" and "Basic/Standard"<>"Cultured." So option #2 seems more likely.

But that still leaves us out in the cold trying to figure out what Cultured means. Is it a completely different animal that can't possess different grades, since it doesn't start out as Basic? Page 303's confusing statement refers us to page 339, so maybe that'll help clear things up.

.... And that's it. That's all it says before it goes into explanations on individual bioware implants.

So, reluctantly drawing from pre-SR4 editions, we know that higher-grade cyberware is more expensive and more Essence-friendly because it: A) uses more exotic materials in its construction and B) is custom-built for the implantee. Standard cyber is "off the rack" stuff, and delta is made of, like, Martian orichalcum and nanites programmed to mimic your own DNA or whatever. So maybe that means Cultured is already "top of the line" that can't be improved upon further.

In any case, the fact that Basic bioware and Cultured bioware are declared as separate categories in two places (page 303 and the bioware tables) is very important for character generation purposes. Page 84 states clearly that starting characters can have only two kinds of implants: Basic and Alpha. This seems to exclude Cultured.

~~~~~

So that's where we're at. If Cultured is "gradeless," then it can't be made to cost less Essence and it can't be purchased in chargen. If Cultured is just another type of Standard/Basic implant, then it can be graded and it can be purchased in chargen.

If there's a third option or better evidence to point to either of the two I listed, I haven't seen it yet.

Oh, and the 1.3 errata doesn't have any corrections listed for pages 84, 303, or 339.

Makes it one hell of a lot harder to get the money together to buy? Also depending on how the GM sees the world, you might be looking at nearly 5 million for it. Monopolized distribution channel? Check! Market dry of Deltaware? This represents a lot of stock to carry. Law Enforcement crackdown on all blackmarket or greymarket Deltaware? "Hey, these are serious low breakers. For the good of the citizens we need to get tough on Deltaware. Now if you'll excuse me I need to put away this big bag of money that just got handed to me by Deltaware manufacturers."

4.75 million is a lot of cash. Even an entire team of runners coming up with that much money, muchless one single runner, puts you into the catagory of a very high power level game that only the GM could have made the choice of to start with.

Post Script

If, as a GM, you don't like the idea of Deltaware being available then Just Say No. Be up front about it with your players. Top it off with a good IC explaination.

Our GM doesn't say we CAN'T find explosives. But every one of the fixers that have been asked have explained they just don't want to risk stocking the stuff. No sane, metally capable person should because of the bombsniffer drones LoneStar regularly sends out on patrol.

Of course one of our team has a contact that falls outside the mentally capable person catagory. Unfortunately not only was the C4 already allocated to blowing up Autodawg™ street vending machines, the stuff they had was decades old, and plastic explosive compound becomes unstable with age, and was also stored with "these little shiny metal things" mixed into it.

Unless something radical has happened in the five years between editions no one stocks deltaware at all. It is impossible to stock deltaware.

When you order deltaware you go into the delta clinic and the doctors there perform several highly invasive scans and tests on your body along with all of the standard uninvasive ones. They then send these test results and scans to professional cyberware engineers who design your deltaware from the ground up so that it is as perfect a match to your physiology as is possible. Your deltaware will work in you and you alone. To anyone else it is just overpriced betaware.

At least, that is how it was in SR3. Considering the necessity of some power creep with future sourcebooks, it is possible that Zetaware will be the next hot thing.


Postscript - That's some downright nasty GMing. If you can make the availability rolls then you can make the availability rolls.

The Just Say No? It really comes down to what kind of game you are playing, and the players and GM agreeing to it up front at the beginning.

Although if your character comes up with the cash you have basically already said yes to a wildly powerful character. 4.75 million will get you a at list price pair of matching T-birds. Although by the same street markup a of 20%-40% may apply, and 24F is one serious availability.

It doesn't. Since Street Index was left out nothing does. Characters buy at the listed price, no more and no less.

The legality index itself doesn't, but street costs depend on the "history" of the item and the black market in general. Take a look page 302, Black Market Goods and Street Costs.

Since there are no rules for applying these modifiers they may as well not exist. GM discression doesn't cut it here.

No GM is going to write a 15 page history of every bullet, gun, and doodad a runner buys. No GM is going to write a 20,000 page dissertation that percisely maps out plack market distribution channels and politics in his shadow universe and make percise, well thought out updates to it every single session. In order to apply those modifiers correctly, fairly, and consistantly that is the level of detail that a GM needs to put into it. Anything less would be just pulling crap out of one's ass.

Limiting the number of Extended Test rolls isn't really a house rule, it is an optional rule and the setting the limit at the Skill rating is the example given. It certainly isn't the only limit you could choose though. For decking Decrypt Extended Tests for example a limit of 4 rolls works great.

Welcome to GMing 101. You don't need a 15 page history of every bullet, weapon, and widget. It isn't actually anywhere close to that bad. That small list of modifiers is pretty straight forward, although admittedly relatively sparse.

That is if you don't just say screw it to bothering translating everything into and out of nuyen. The more you pay for runs in equipment, and the more you let the runners just go out and get the gear they want with a run, the less you have to worry about the limitations of Availability.

Doesn't this just mean that certain forms of bioware have to be cultured? All of the bioware listed as "cultured" has to do with the brain and/or nervous system. However, I don't interpret that to mean that Muscle Toner (for instance) cannot be cultured. My reading of of the grades is:

Standard/Basic, Alpha, Beta, Delta/Cultured

Am I missing something?

I don't think that I'm saying anything that hasn't been known at least since Shadowtech.

"Bioware that has been protein-matched and grown from the host's cellular matrix takes less of a toll on the body's functioning than does regular bioware. Such bioware is referred to as cultured bioware. Cultured bioware is implanted at a reduced Body Cost (the item's Body Cost multiplied by .75, a 25 percent reduction....multiply the item's nuyen price by 4). All neural bioware is cultured bioware. Body Cost and monetary factors are already figured in to the listed values for neural bioware." (Shadowtech, page 6)

This is consistent with the rules as presented in SR4. You are free to call the SR4 rules "confusing leftovers," but in the absence of more definitive rules that say otherwise, I see no reason to change my understanding of cultured bioware.

Which handled Bioware completly different than SR4...

And exactly here is the problem - it isn't.
'It's always been that way' doesn't work well with edition changes.

Oh, certainly I'm not calling the basic rules 'confusing leftovers', there is just some wording that doesn't match the core of those rules presented in SR4 that perfectly.

I'm not arguing that the rules haven't at all changed, I'm arguing that the concept of cultured bioware hasn't changed. IOW, "cultured" is a type of grading for bioware, from which it follows that it is not compatible with other forms of grading.

Unless, of course, you believe that all forms of grading are mutually compatible with one another. AFAIK, SR4 doesn't say that a single piece of 'ware can't be both alpha- and beta-graded. But is that is a reasonable interpretation of the rules? For that matter, can a character alpha-grade a single piece of cyberware twice?

Unless you're willing to be more specific, I have to disagree.

To recap: I believe that this...
"The prices for cyberware and bioware presented in this chapter are for standard 'ware (with the exception of cultured bioware...)." (SR4, page 303)

...is just a clumsy way of saying this...
"Cultured bioware is implanted at a reduced Body Cost (the item's Body Cost multiplied by .75, a 25 percent reduction....multiply the item's nuyen price by 4). All neural bioware is cultured bioware. Body Cost and monetary factors are already figured in to the listed values for neural bioware." (Shadowtech, page 6)

No incompatiblity. Also, "cultured bioware" is specifically mentioned in SR4 as being a "grade" (listed under "Implant Grades," page 64). One has to read that paragraph out of context to presume that it means that cultured bioware is just a non-generic type of bioware rather than a grade like alpha, beta, and delta.

Which is plain wrong - it has changed; now being a category first, not a grade:
Bioware has two categories: Basic and cultured.
See:

Which, indeed, is either a leftover or a hint on additional rules upcoming in Arsenal, allowing to purchase Basic Bioware as Cultured in addition to Grades - it specifically says 'additionally'.

Yes, you really have to read the hard rule on p. 303 out of context to have a doubt how grades work in SR4.

So, either way, to read a strong exclusion out of those vague wordings is quite far stretched.

If you're looking for consensus, then the internet is the wrong place to be. I go with #3, because I really can't see any reason to believe that "cultured" isn't a grade of bioware. Even then I suppose that someone might argue that a piece of 'ware can be graded multiple times. There is no explicit rule against that, but good sense says no.

"Cyberware and bioware is available in four grades" is not logically equivalent to "cyberware and bioware is avaiable in four grades and only four grades." We already know that there are four grades of bioware from reading page 64, however page 64 also informs us that "additionally, there is a higher grade of bioware" for a total of five grades of bioware, and four grades of cyberware.

So you choose to ignore this line as being a "leftover." Noted. However, it still exists despite your denial.

In fact, it is - that's the meaning of 'available'.

And yet has no defined meaning in SR4.

That would be a reverse, since we are starting with logic, and thus not allowed.

All we know is that all ware comes in four grades and that, additionally, cultured bioware is more costly and essence friendly.
Whether or not there will be a rule to purchase basic bioware as cultured will be shown by Arsenal.
Yet, that has no impact on the availability of higher grade bioware.

A possibility indeed, just that line is in there twice.

As it stands, cultured bioware "is a higher grade of bioware" in addition to the grades of alpha, beta, and delta (pg. 64), as specifically mentioned under the heading "Implant Grades." If it is not an implant grade like all of the others in that section, then it does not belong there. In the absence of evidence that this was a mistake on Fanpro's part, there is no reason is disregard it.

There is no need to refer to Shadowtech or any other sourcebook. However, that does not mean that the authors didn't have Shadowtech in mind when they were writing SR4. There is an informative parallel between the two sourcebooks. It is certainly preferable to use past material to help interpret an ambiguity than it is to disregard the ambiguous rule altogether.

Quiz time. How many of these statements are true?

"One grade of cyberware is available."
"Two grades of cyberware are available."
"Three grades of cyberware are available."
"Four grades of cyberware are available."

Answer: all of them. They are not mutually exclusive. Now these:

"One and only one grade of cyberware is available."
"Two and only two grades of cyberware are available."
"Three and only three grades of cyberware are available."
"Four and only four grades of cyberware are available."

Answer: only one of them. They are mutually exclusive.

The measure of a good theory is that it accounts for all of the known facts which it purports to explain. My theory can explain why cultured bioware is described under "Implant Grades" on page 64. My theory can also explain why cultured bioware is listed as an "exception" on page 303. Your theory can do neither. Instead you have to ignore both by insisting (without evidence) that they were mistakes on Fanpro's part.

I would like to give you a chance to tell me otherwise. But if you cannot or will not do it, then there is no reason to give preference to your interpretation over mine.

That, pal, is wrong - read again.

Basically, your theory needs an assumption build on a reverse to happen - that not only violates not to use reverses in logic, but occams razor, too.

That makes it a very bad theory, no matter whether it seems to explain something.

Occams' razor requires that a theory not be multiplied beyond necessity. That means that the theory must account for all of the known facts, and it does not (for the sake of simplicity) allow one to ignore facts which might be deemed inconvenient. Your theory requires regarding sections of the text as either "editing errors" or "useless fluff," thereby ignoring them as rules implementations. Your theory also requires reversing the status quo for what constitutes cultured bioware, which, in any case, puts the burden of proof on you (whether you accept it or not).

Anyway, the next sentence on page 303 says "When purchasing implants of other grades, apply the Essence Cost and Cost adjustments as noted on the Implant Grades table...." The first question is: what does "other grades" refer to? It apparently refers to "non-standard" grades, as inferred from the preceding sentence--i.e., alphaware, betaware, and deltaware.

However, the preceding sentence also states (parenthetically) that the prices for cultured bioware are non-standard. So the sentence in question has no application to cultured bioware. To paraphrase: "When purchasing implants of [any grades beside standard and cultured], apply the Essence Cost and Cost adjustments as noted on the Implant Grades table...."

In other words, regardless of how you understand "cultured bioware," the book nowhere says that it can be upgraded to alpha-, beta-, or delta. Or maybe you think that cultured bioware can be so upgraded, but that the upgrade does not require adjusting the Essence and Cost? In which case "cultured deltaware" is just more fluff for you to ignore.

Oh, on the contrary - it is a well-proven fact that SR4 is a rushed job containing leftovers, so this is a valid possibility not to ignore.
On the other hand, transition from basic to cultured might be added later on, yet the main book does make grades and cultured not mutually exclusive.

Just in case you missed it: you are ignoring both.

Not really - the burden of proof still is yours, since SR4 clearly does not care very much about the status quo.

Perfect. That would imply that it is absolutly valid to get delta cultured.

Don't forget those rolls take time, sometimes days PER ROLL if the availibilty and price are high enough. I can see it now, three months after a run you wanted some explosives for the fixer calls you up "Hey, you know those explosives you were asking about? They finaly came in!"

I'm not asking you to prove that it's a possibility, I'm asking you to prove that it is the case (with this particular rule). You decline every opportunity to do so.

At best, the rules are ambiguous. In the absence of further information, you invented a rule that says "cultured bioware can be delta-graded" rather than (more reasonably) deciding the matter by precedent.

Not only have I cited the relevant rules, but I've cited parallel rules from previous editions. If that doesn't show that the status quo hasn't changed, then what will? (To which you counter "that's just a leftover, they must not have mean to put that in." )

Yes, as long as you don't apply Essence and Cost adjustments to it. But then you don't seem to realize why that is ridiculous...

Let me rephrase the sentence in the negative: "Do not apply Essence Cost and Cost adjustments when purchasing standard and cultured implants."

Well, everything is, obviously.

No need to invent any rule:

The rule above, you are happy to ignore.

Not really - I reminded you that it may either be a leftover, or a hint on rules to come on that matter... if you would have paid more attention, you would even have realized that even the rules you cited do not exclude the possibility of bioware grades, but list cultured as an addition to that system.

Which, in fact, is still right - as soon as you purchase higher grades, it's alpha/beta/delta bioware.