Dort
Feb 24 2006, 02:51 PM
I'm a bit confused as to how the grades of implants work with Bioware in SR4.
pg. 303 says "Cyberware and Bioware comes in four grades - Standard, Alphaware, Betaware and Deltaware"
"The prices for cyberware and bioware presented in this chapter are for standard 'ware (with the exception of cultured bioware - see pg. 339)"
But all pg.339 says is -
"Cultured Bioware must be tailormade for the intended recipient, so it is more expensive and takes longer to acquire."
I know how it used to work in previous ed.s but dont get if cultured is either -
a/ gradeless (i.e. cant be improved), but normal bio can
b/ effectively already alpha - so can be improved but costs will be a bit odd.
c/ the ref to bioware on pg. 303 is erroneous and should be ignored for grades
Any ideas?
Dort the mildly confused
Thanee
Feb 24 2006, 02:54 PM
I think cultured is just cultured and completely seperate from grades now (in earlier editions it basically was the higher grade). It's just a descriptor, which has no real game effect (more like an explanation for the higher prices).
Bye
Thanee
Moon-Hawk
Feb 24 2006, 02:59 PM
So let me see if I have this right, since I'm still a little confused too.
Cyberware can be bought:
standard
alpha
beta
delta
Normal bioware can be bought:
standard
alpha
beta
delta
can NOT be bought cultured, as in previous editions
Cultured bioware can be bought:
standard
alpha
beta
delta
Normal bioware and cultured bioware are game-mechanically identical, one can't be changed into another, it is a complete irrelevant descriptor, relevant for fluff text only.
Right?
Serbitar
Feb 24 2006, 03:03 PM
right, the pros go for delta synaptic accelerators
Moon-Hawk
Feb 24 2006, 03:22 PM
+3 Reaction and +3 IP for 2.4Mil, costing only 0.75 essence, or (more likely) 0.375 essence if you've got more cyber than bio.
Wow.
What does delta do to the availability? The cyberware grade table only mentions money and essence costs.
Serbitar
Feb 24 2006, 03:26 PM
at the moment? nothing
without capping the number of tries, (to skill for examample) it doesnt matter anyways . ..
Thanee
Feb 24 2006, 03:30 PM
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
What does delta do to the availability? |
It changes AV to unlimited.
![wink.gif](http://forums.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/wink.gif)
Honestly, that's a good point, really. There should be some sort of change in AV.
Are there still only six (or so) delta clinics in the world?
Or are there now more and it's actually reasonably possible to aquire that stuff?
Bye
Thanee
P.S. Besides, even standard Synaptic Boosters 3 are a rather good deal. Only 0.75 Essence loss for your average Samurai, and at 240k even quite affordable (at some point).
Azralon
Feb 24 2006, 03:55 PM
I wrote up a post like this a number of weeks ago, but my search-fu is lacking today. So, the price I pay is that I'll have to recreate it all over again.
QUOTE (SR4 p.84) |
Players should consider the grade of cyberware or bioware when choosing it. Two grades are available to starting characters: Basic and Alpha. |
Okay, so we have two grades of implants mentioned and official, capitalized nomenclature to describe those grades: "Basic" and "Alpha."
Note that page 84 goes on to describe Basic cyberware and Alpha cyberware, but makes no effort to mention bioware. So while the existence of Basic and Alpha cyber is clearly demonstrated, the existence of Basic and Alpha bioware has been omitted from the examples for whatever reason.
QUOTE (SR4 p.303) |
Cyberware and bioware is available in four grades: standard, alphaware, betaware, and deltaware. Only standard and alphaware may be purchased at character creation. The prices for cyberware and bioware presented in this chapter are for standard ’ware (with the exception of cultured bioware, see p. 339). |
The existence of graded bioware is now clearly shown. We also now have a list of all of the grades, although they're not capitalized and the first one is named noticeably differently. The grades are apparently "Standard," "Alphaware," "Betaware," and "Deltaware."
Right, so I just assumed that "Basic" = "Standard" and that the two terms just didn't get synchronized in the editing process.
Then we're told that all of the prices in the gear section are for Standard cyberware and bioware.... with the exception of Cultured bioware. So "Cultured" is apparently not the same as "Standard." That's unfortunate, because it breaks our paradigm of 4 implant grades. Two possibilities:
1) Standard/Basic/Cultured, Alpha, Beta, Delta.
2) Standard/Basic, Alpha, Beta, Delta, Cultured (which exists outside of the grade system).
Note that the two bioware tables are labeled as "Basic" and "Cultured." This further emphasizes the idea that "Basic"="Standard" and "Basic/Standard"<>"Cultured." So option #2 seems more likely.
But that still leaves us out in the cold trying to figure out what Cultured means. Is it a completely different animal that can't possess different grades, since it doesn't start out as Basic? Page 303's confusing statement refers us to page 339, so maybe that'll help clear things up.
QUOTE (SR4 p.339) |
Cultured bioware must be tailor-made for the intended recipient, so it is more expensive and takes longer to acquire. |
.... And that's it. That's all it says before it goes into explanations on individual bioware implants.
So, reluctantly drawing from pre-SR4 editions, we know that higher-grade cyberware is more expensive and more Essence-friendly because it: A) uses more exotic materials in its construction and B) is custom-built for the implantee. Standard cyber is "off the rack" stuff, and delta is made of, like, Martian orichalcum and nanites programmed to mimic your own DNA or whatever. So maybe that means Cultured is already "top of the line" that can't be improved upon further.
In any case, the fact that Basic bioware and Cultured bioware are declared as separate categories in two places (page 303 and the bioware tables) is very important for character generation purposes. Page 84 states clearly that starting characters can have only two kinds of implants: Basic and Alpha. This seems to exclude Cultured.
~~~~~
So that's where we're at. If Cultured is "gradeless," then it can't be made to cost less Essence and it can't be purchased in chargen. If Cultured is just another type of Standard/Basic implant, then it can be graded and it can be purchased in chargen.
If there's a third option or better evidence to point to either of the two I listed, I haven't seen it yet.
![frown.gif](http://forums.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/frown.gif)
Oh, and the 1.3 errata doesn't have any corrections listed for pages 84, 303, or 339.
emo samurai
Feb 24 2006, 04:00 PM
Until the Champion of Japanese Economic Superiority pulls off his datasteal and ultra-cultured bioware hits the market.
Brahm
Feb 24 2006, 04:09 PM
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Feb 24 2006, 10:22 AM) |
+3 Reaction and +3 IP for 2.4Mil, costing only 0.75 essence, or (more likely) 0.375 essence if you've got more cyber than bio. Wow. What does delta do to the availability? The cyberware grade table only mentions money and essence costs. |
Makes it one hell of a lot harder to get the money together to buy?
![smile.gif](http://forums.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/smile.gif)
Also depending on how the GM sees the world, you might be looking at nearly 5 million for it. Monopolized distribution channel? Check! Market dry of Deltaware? This represents a lot of stock to carry. Law Enforcement crackdown on all blackmarket or greymarket Deltaware? "Hey, these are serious low breakers. For the good of the citizens we need to get tough on Deltaware. Now if you'll excuse me I need to put away this big bag of money that just got handed to me by Deltaware manufacturers."
4.75 million
![nuyen.gif](http://forums.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/nuyen.gif)
is a
lot of cash. Even an entire team of runners coming up with that much money, muchless one single runner, puts you into the catagory of a very high power level game that only the GM could have made the choice of to start with.
Post ScriptIf, as a GM, you don't like the idea of Deltaware being available then
Just Say No. Be up front about it with your players. Top it off with a good IC explaination.
Our GM doesn't say we CAN'T find explosives. But every one of the fixers that have been asked have explained they just don't want to risk stocking the stuff. No sane, metally capable person should because of the bombsniffer drones LoneStar regularly sends out on patrol.
Of course one of our team has a contact that falls outside the
mentally capable person catagory. Unfortunately not only was the C4 already allocated to blowing up Autodawg street vending machines, the stuff they had was decades old, and plastic explosive compound becomes unstable with age, and was also stored with "these little shiny metal things" mixed into it.
Shrike30
Feb 24 2006, 08:38 PM
There's a part of me that goes "oh god" when i hear things like that, and another part that wants to play in those campaigns...
hyzmarca
Feb 24 2006, 08:56 PM
QUOTE (Brahm @ Feb 24 2006, 11:09 AM) |
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Feb 24 2006, 10:22 AM) | +3 Reaction and +3 IP for 2.4Mil, costing only 0.75 essence, or (more likely) 0.375 essence if you've got more cyber than bio. Wow. What does delta do to the availability? The cyberware grade table only mentions money and essence costs. |
Makes it one hell of a lot harder to get the money together to buy? ![smile.gif](http://forums.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/smile.gif) Also depending on how the GM sees the world, you might be looking at nearly 5 million for it. Monopolized distribution channel? Check! Market dry of Deltaware? This represents a lot of stock to carry. Law Enforcement crackdown on all blackmarket or greymarket Deltaware? "Hey, these are serious low breakers. For the good of the citizens we need to get tough on Deltaware. Now if you'll excuse me I need to put away this big bag of money that just got handed to me by Deltaware manufacturers." 4.75 million ![nuyen.gif](http://forums.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/nuyen.gif) is a lot of cash. Even an entire team of runners coming up with that much money, muchless one single runner, puts you into the catagory of a very high power level game that only the GM could have made the choice of to start with. Post ScriptIf, as a GM, you don't like the idea of Deltaware being available then Just Say No. Be up front about it with your players. Top it off with a good IC explaination. Our GM doesn't say we CAN'T find explosives. But every one of the fixers that have been asked have explained they just don't want to risk stocking the stuff. No sane, metally capable person should because of the bombsniffer drones LoneStar regularly sends out on patrol. Of course one of our team has a contact that falls outside the mentally capable person catagory. Unfortunately not only was the C4 already allocated to blowing up Autodawg street vending machines, the stuff they had was decades old, and plastic explosive compound becomes unstable with age, and was also stored with "these little shiny metal things" mixed into it. |
Unless something radical has happened in the five years between editions no one stocks deltaware at all. It is impossible to stock deltaware.
When you order deltaware you go into the delta clinic and the doctors there perform several highly invasive scans and tests on your body along with all of the standard uninvasive ones. They then send these test results and scans to professional cyberware engineers who design your deltaware from the ground up so that it is as perfect a match to your physiology as is possible. Your deltaware will work in you and you alone. To anyone else it is just overpriced betaware.
At least, that is how it was in SR3. Considering the necessity of some power creep with future sourcebooks, it is possible that Zetaware will be the next hot thing.
Postscript - That's some downright nasty GMing. If you can make the availability rolls then you can make the availability rolls.
Brahm
Feb 24 2006, 09:17 PM
QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
Postscript - That's some downright nasty GMing. If you can make the availibility rolls then you can make the availibility rolls. |
The Just Say No? It really comes down to what kind of game you are playing, and the players and GM agreeing to it up front at the beginning.
Although if your character comes up with the cash you have basically already said yes to a wildly powerful character. 4.75 million will get you a at list price pair of matching T-birds.
![nyahnyah.gif](http://forums.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/nyahnyah.gif)
Although by the same street markup a of 20%-40% may apply, and 24F is one serious availability.
MaxHunter
Feb 25 2006, 03:20 PM
...Only if availability is limited. As the book goes, you could roll and roll forever until you get the thing. My group and myself are using the -number of rolls capped by the skill- houserule and it kinda works.
I still have problems with pricing. I mean: How does the legality index affect cost? (I go "F" meaning "crackdown = +50%" and "R" a 25% increase). Would it be more expensive to get the higher availability items? (by the present rules it does necessarily have to be so if you have ample time...)
Sometimes I roll availability dice and add a 10% markup for each hit.
Also, fixers and middlemen charge a 5%x connection rating fee.
But it does not get any "transparent".
I propose a sample activity for you:
A street sam, planning a field trip to amazonia is interested on getting a Combat Armor Suit with environmental adaptation and an Ares Alpha Assault Rifle, he goes and talks to his friend fixer, who has a 3 connection rating and rolls 13 dice in the availability test. (5 charisma + 5 negotiation + 3 connection rating) How long does it take him to get the items and how much does the street sam pay?
Let's see if you get the same numbers I do...
cheers,
Max
edit: I realise it's off-topic somewhat, so I am posting it as a separate item on the Sr4 forum. I'll keep track of this thread too, anyway.
Plus: What about cultured bioware as Alpha?
hyzmarca
Feb 25 2006, 03:35 PM
QUOTE (MaxHunter) |
I still have problems with pricing. I mean: How does the legality index affect cost? |
It doesn't. Since Street Index was left out nothing does. Characters buy at the listed price, no more and no less.
Darkness
Feb 25 2006, 03:58 PM
QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
QUOTE (MaxHunter @ Feb 25 2006, 10:20 AM) | I still have problems with pricing. I mean: How does the legality index affect cost? |
It doesn't. Since Street Index was left out nothing does. Characters buy at the listed price, no more and no less.
|
The legality index itself doesn't, but street costs depend on the "history" of the item and the black market in general. Take a look page 302, Black Market Goods and Street Costs.
TinkerGnome
Feb 25 2006, 03:59 PM
Street index was always a weird animal, anyway. Sometimes it made sense, sometimes it made no sense.
Like concealability, really.
MaxHunter
Feb 25 2006, 04:12 PM
...and that is another issue. Next will come a discussion on conceleability and it's uses. I used to be a very important factor in gear-choosing before and now it's kinda gone and I honestly miss it. I am probably going to go a little deeper than the rules in the book there.
I do not agree on players always buying at the listed price at all. Page 302 is a good starter, but check my ideas on top (or at the new topic).
Personally, weird animals tend to be ignored completely, so I'd rather having clearer parameters.
Cheers
Max
hyzmarca
Feb 25 2006, 04:15 PM
QUOTE (Darkness) |
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Feb 25 2006, 04:35 PM) | QUOTE (MaxHunter @ Feb 25 2006, 10:20 AM) | I still have problems with pricing. I mean: How does the legality index affect cost? |
It doesn't. Since Street Index was left out nothing does. Characters buy at the listed price, no more and no less.
|
The legality index itself doesn't, but street costs depend on the "history" of the item and the black market in general. Take a look page 302, Black Market Goods and Street Costs.
|
Since there are no rules for applying these modifiers they may as well not exist. GM discression doesn't cut it here.
No GM is going to write a 15 page history of every bullet, gun, and doodad a runner buys. No GM is going to write a 20,000 page dissertation that percisely maps out plack market distribution channels and politics in his shadow universe and make percise, well thought out updates to it every single session. In order to apply those modifiers correctly, fairly, and consistantly that is the level of detail that a GM needs to put into it. Anything less would be just pulling crap out of one's ass.
TinkerGnome
Feb 25 2006, 05:06 PM
The best "fix" for cost and availability is to simply increase the time between tests and cap tests with skill. Moving every time up a step (100 - 1 day, < 1k - 2 days, < 10k - 1 wk, > 10k - 2 wks) would greatly increase the attractiveness of offering extra cash for the item. Instead of getting an Alpha in 6 days, it'd take an average of 3 weeks.
Brahm
Feb 25 2006, 05:09 PM
QUOTE (MaxHunter) |
...Only if availability is limited. As the book goes, you could roll and roll forever until you get the thing. My group and myself are using the -number of rolls capped by the skill- houserule and it kinda works. |
Limiting the number of Extended Test rolls isn't really a house rule, it is an optional rule and the setting the limit at the Skill rating is the example given. It certainly isn't the only limit you could choose though. For decking Decrypt Extended Tests for example a limit of 4 rolls works great.
Brahm
Feb 25 2006, 05:29 PM
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Feb 25 2006, 11:15 AM) |
Since there are no rules for applying these modifiers they may as well not exist. GM discression doesn't cut it here.
No GM is going to write a 15 page history of every bullet, gun, and doodad a runner buys. No GM is going to write a 20,000 page dissertation that percisely maps out plack market distribution channels and politics in his shadow universe and make percise, well thought out updates to it every single session. In order to apply those modifiers correctly, fairly, and consistantly that is the level of detail that a GM needs to put into it. Anything less would be just pulling crap out of one's ass. |
Welcome to GMing 101. You don't need a 15 page history of every bullet, weapon, and widget. It isn't actually anywhere close to that bad. That small list of modifiers is pretty straight forward, although admittedly relatively sparse.
That is if you don't just say screw it to bothering translating everything into and out of nuyen. The more you pay for runs in equipment, and the more you let the runners just go out and get the gear they want with a run, the less you have to worry about the limitations of Availability.
Churl Beck
Feb 25 2006, 06:16 PM
QUOTE (Azralon) |
Then we're told that all of the prices in the gear section are for Standard cyberware and bioware.... with the exception of Cultured bioware. So "Cultured" is apparently not the same as "Standard." That's unfortunate, because it breaks our paradigm of 4 implant grades. Two possibilities:
1) Standard/Basic/Cultured, Alpha, Beta, Delta. 2) Standard/Basic, Alpha, Beta, Delta, Cultured (which exists outside of the grade system). |
Doesn't this just mean that certain forms of bioware have to be cultured? All of the bioware listed as "cultured" has to do with the brain and/or nervous system. However, I don't interpret that to mean that Muscle Toner (for instance) cannot be cultured. My reading of of the grades is:
Standard/Basic, Alpha, Beta, Delta/Cultured
Am I missing something?
Rotbart van Dainig
Feb 25 2006, 06:33 PM
Grade are one thing, yet they don't explicitly exclude Cultured Bioware...
Churl Beck
Feb 25 2006, 07:20 PM
Cultured bioware is described as "a higher [than delta] grade of bioware" (pg. 64), so I see no justification in saying that it can be further alpha-, beta-, or delta-graded (which would in fact be a downgrade). Also, as has already been pointed out, it says (on pg. 303) that the prices for cultured bioware are not "standard," which to my mind means that the multipliers for cost and essence have already been factored into the table (on pg. 339). That would suggest that "cultured bioware" is a separate category of bioware, and hence an exception to the normal grading rules. Otherwise the category exists for no purpose other than to cause confusion.
Nevertheless, my understanding of delta-graded 'ware (whether cyber or bio) is just that it is tailor-made for the patient. So for all practical purposes, that is identical to saying that it is cultured.
Rotbart van Dainig
Feb 25 2006, 08:36 PM
Look, you are reading more into the sentence than it really says - especially to what it is higher grade (it may be better than Standard, but worse than Alpha).
Given that SR4 still has some confusing leftovers, it is not very wise to try to extract strong exclusions from implications that are only potentially valid - and given the streamlined setup of SR4, such an exclusion would be more likely noted as a hard rule.
There are no hard rules what grades represent, either - grades referred to the overall quality of a job.
On the other hand, Categories of Implants in SR4 aren't even more than simple arrangements, and sometimes plain wrong - a Sim Rig is Headware, but grouped as Bodyware.
Churl Beck
Feb 25 2006, 11:12 PM
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
Look, you are reading more into the sentence than it really says - especially to what it is higher grade (it may be better than Standard, but worse than Alpha). Given that SR4 still has some confusing leftovers, it is not very wise to try to extract strong exclusions from implications that are only potentially valid - and given the streamlined setup of SR4, such an exclusion would be noted as a hard rule.
There are no hard rules what grades represent, either - grades referred to the overall quality of a job.
On the other hand, Categories of Implants in SR4 aren't even more than simple arrangements, and sometimes plain wrong - a Sim Rig is Headware, but grouped as Bodyware. |
I don't think that I'm saying anything that hasn't been known at least since Shadowtech.
"Bioware that has been protein-matched and grown from the host's cellular matrix takes less of a toll on the body's functioning than does regular bioware. Such bioware is referred to as cultured bioware. Cultured bioware is implanted at a reduced Body Cost (the item's Body Cost multiplied by .75, a 25 percent reduction....multiply the item's nuyen price by 4). All neural bioware is cultured bioware. Body Cost and monetary factors are already figured in to the listed values for neural bioware." (Shadowtech, page 6)
This is consistent with the rules as presented in SR4. You are free to call the SR4 rules "confusing leftovers," but in the absence of more definitive rules that say otherwise, I see no reason to change my understanding of cultured bioware.
Rotbart van Dainig
Feb 25 2006, 11:29 PM
QUOTE (Churl Beck) |
I don't think that I'm saying anything that hasn't been known at least since Shadowtech. |
Which handled Bioware completly different than SR4...
QUOTE (Churl Beck) |
This is consistent with the rules as presented in SR4. |
And exactly here is the problem - it isn't.
'It's always been that way' doesn't work well with edition changes.
QUOTE (Churl Beck) |
You are free to call the SR4 rules "confusing leftovers," but in the absence of more definitive rules that say otherwise, I see no reason to change my understanding of cultured bioware. |
Oh, certainly I'm not calling the basic rules 'confusing leftovers', there is just some wording that doesn't match the core of those rules presented in SR4 that perfectly.
Ta'al
Feb 26 2006, 07:05 AM
So, have we reached a verdict on the Bioware grades issue?
Option 1: A/B/D grades exist for cyberware only, Bioware costs are exactly as listed.
Option 2: Grades exist for both cyberware and bioware, with costs calculated as written.
Example: Deltaware Synaptic Enhancers
Option 3: Basic bioware can be upgraded using the RAW, however cultured Bioware already represents the pinnicle of essense/nuyen tradeoff.
Example: Deltaware Cat's eyes, but no deltaware mnemonic enhancers.
Oh, BTW: This is my first post here at Dumpshock, hi everyone!
Ta'al
MaxHunter
Feb 26 2006, 07:22 AM
Hi and Welcome to the shadows Ta'al!!!
Beware of the Drop Bears...
Max
Ophis
Feb 26 2006, 10:01 AM
Option 2 is the one. No exceptions on the grade thing mentioned on p301ish (no book to hand).
Thats my two pennies.
Churl Beck
Feb 26 2006, 05:10 PM
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
QUOTE (Churl Beck) | I don't think that I'm saying anything that hasn't been known at least since Shadowtech. |
Which handled Bioware completly different than SR4...
|
I'm not arguing that the rules haven't at all changed, I'm arguing that the concept of cultured bioware hasn't changed. IOW, "cultured" is a type of grading for bioware, from which it follows that it is not compatible with other forms of grading.
Unless, of course, you believe that all forms of grading are mutually compatible with one another. AFAIK, SR4 doesn't say that a single piece of 'ware can't be both alpha- and beta-graded. But is that is a reasonable interpretation of the rules? For that matter, can a character alpha-grade a single piece of cyberware twice?
QUOTE |
QUOTE (Churl Beck) | This is consistent with the rules as presented in SR4. |
And exactly here is the problem - it isn't. 'It's always been that way' doesn't work well with edition changes.
|
Unless you're willing to be more specific, I have to disagree.
To recap: I believe that this...
"The prices for cyberware and bioware presented in this chapter are for standard 'ware (with the exception of cultured bioware...)." (SR4, page 303)
...is just a clumsy way of saying this...
"Cultured bioware is implanted at a reduced Body Cost (the item's Body Cost multiplied by .75, a 25 percent reduction....multiply the item's nuyen price by 4). All neural bioware is cultured bioware. Body Cost and monetary factors are already figured in to the listed values for neural bioware." (Shadowtech, page 6)
No incompatiblity. Also, "cultured bioware" is specifically mentioned in SR4 as being a "grade" (listed under "Implant Grades," page 64). One has to read that paragraph out of context to presume that it means that cultured bioware is just a non-generic type of bioware rather than a grade like alpha, beta, and delta.
hyzmarca
Feb 26 2006, 05:22 PM
It is faily simple to presume that cultured bioware has 25% less body index cost. Of course, the fact that SR4 doesn't use body index renders that moot.
At no point does SR4 give rules for cultured bioware, it is just mentioned in passing. At no point does SR4 state to refer to Shadowtech or any other sourcebook.
As it stands, cultured bioware is just fluff in SR4, nothing more and nothing less.
Rotbart van Dainig
Feb 26 2006, 05:24 PM
QUOTE (Churl Beck) |
I'm not arguing that the rules haven't at all changed, I'm arguing that the concept of cultured bioware hasn't changed. IOW, "cultured" is a type of grading for bioware, from which it follows that it is not compatible with other forms of grading. |
Which is plain wrong - it has changed; now being a category first, not a grade:
Bioware has two categories: Basic and cultured.
See:
QUOTE (SR4 @ p. 303) |
Cyberware and bioware is available in four grades: standard, alphaware, betaware, and deltaware. |
QUOTE (Churl Beck) |
Also, "cultured bioware" is specifically mentioned in SR4 as being a "grade" (listed under "Implant Grades," page 64). |
Which, indeed, is either a leftover or a hint on additional rules upcoming in Arsenal, allowing to purchase Basic Bioware as Cultured in addition to Grades - it specifically says 'additionally'.
QUOTE (Churl Beck) |
One has to read that paragraph out of context to presume that it means that cultured bioware is just a non-generic type of bioware rather than a grade like alpha, beta, and delta. |
Yes, you really have to read the hard rule on p. 303 out of context to have a doubt how grades work in SR4.
So, either way, to read a strong exclusion out of those vague wordings is quite far stretched.
Churl Beck
Feb 26 2006, 05:27 PM
QUOTE (Ta'al) |
So, have we reached a verdict on the Bioware grades issue?
Option 1: A/B/D grades exist for cyberware only, Bioware costs are exactly as listed.
Option 2: Grades exist for both cyberware and bioware, with costs calculated as written. Example: Deltaware Synaptic Enhancers
Option 3: Basic bioware can be upgraded using the RAW, however cultured Bioware already represents the pinnicle of essense/nuyen tradeoff. Example: Deltaware Cat's eyes, but no deltaware mnemonic enhancers.
Oh, BTW: This is my first post here at Dumpshock, hi everyone!
Ta'al |
If you're looking for consensus, then the internet is the wrong place to be. I go with #3, because I really can't see any reason to believe that "cultured" isn't a grade of bioware. Even then I suppose that someone might argue that a piece of 'ware can be graded multiple times. There is no explicit rule against that, but good sense says no.
Churl Beck
Feb 26 2006, 05:41 PM
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
Which is plain wrong - it has changed; now being a category first, not a grade: Bioware has two categories: Basic and cultured. See:
QUOTE (SR4 @ p. 303) | Cyberware and bioware is available in four grades: standard, alphaware, betaware, and deltaware. |
|
"Cyberware and bioware is available in four grades" is not logically equivalent to "cyberware and bioware is avaiable in four grades and only four grades." We already know that there are four grades of bioware from reading page 64, however page 64 also informs us that "additionally, there is a higher grade of bioware" for a total of five grades of bioware, and four grades of cyberware.
QUOTE |
QUOTE (Churl Beck) | Also, "cultured bioware" is specifically mentioned in SR4 as being a "grade" (listed under "Implant Grades," page 64). |
Which, indeed, is either a leftover or a hint on additional rules upcoming in Arsenal, allowing to purchase Basic Bioware as Cultured in addition to Grades - it specifically says 'additionally'.
|
So you choose to ignore this line as being a "leftover." Noted. However, it still exists despite your denial.
Churl Beck
Feb 26 2006, 05:45 PM
Also, I invite you to explain what the book means when it says that "The prices for cyberware and bioware presented in this chapter are for standard 'ware (with the exception of cultured bioware)." Why is cultured bioware an exception, by your reading?
TinkerGnome
Feb 26 2006, 05:48 PM
I'm sure we'll see grading for bioware explained more fully in the upcoming books. For the time being, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to aquire delta grade cultured bioware. Under the old system, you had bioware grown from neutral cells and cultured which was grown from your own. There was no actual gradation in quality from this.
I think it's plausable to say that an alpha clinic might be able to culture a mnemonic enhancer, but a delta clinic could culture one that was precisely tuned and had less of an impact on the user.
This kind of thing would have been unbalancing in SR3, what with the 3 "free" points of bio index. However, in SR4 with the joint essence loss, it's not unbalancing.
Keep in mind that the GM has sole discression on when a beta or delta clinic is available. If you don't want your PCs to get into one of the world's handful of delta clinics (there can't be more than a dozen or so), then they don't get in.
Thanee
Feb 26 2006, 05:59 PM
The part under
Implant Grades, which says "Higher Grades of cyberware
and bioware known as alphaware, betaware and deltaware are available." could very well just be an editing error. In the first paragraph only cyberware is mentioned thereafter and bioware is covered in the second paragraph.
At some point, the designers might shed some light on this...
![smile.gif](http://forums.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/smile.gif)
Bye
Thanee
Rotbart van Dainig
Feb 26 2006, 06:02 PM
QUOTE (Churl Beck) |
"Cyberware and bioware is available in four grades" is not logically equivalent to "cyberware and bioware is avaiable in four grades and only four grades." |
In fact, it is - that's the meaning of 'available'.
QUOTE |
However, it still exists despite your denial. |
And yet has no defined meaning in SR4.
QUOTE (Churl Beck) |
Why is cultured bioware an exception, by your reading? |
That would be a reverse, since we are starting with logic, and thus not allowed.
All we know is that all ware comes in four grades and that, additionally, cultured bioware is more costly and essence friendly.
Whether or not there will be a rule to purchase basic bioware as cultured will be shown by Arsenal.
Yet, that has no impact on the availability of higher grade bioware.
QUOTE (Thanee) |
The part under Implant Grades, which says "Higher Grades of cyberware and bioware known as alphaware, betaware and deltaware are available." could very well just be an editing error. |
A possibility indeed, just that line is in there twice.
Churl Beck
Feb 26 2006, 06:28 PM
QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
It is faily simple to presume that cultured bioware has 25% less body index cost. Of course, the fact that SR4 doesn't use body index renders that moot.
At no point does SR4 give rules for cultured bioware, it is just mentioned in passing. At no point does SR4 state to refer to Shadowtech or any other sourcebook. As it stands, cultured bioware is just fluff in SR4, nothing more and nothing less. |
As it stands, cultured bioware "is a higher grade of bioware" in addition to the grades of alpha, beta, and delta (pg. 64), as specifically mentioned under the heading "Implant Grades." If it is not an implant grade like all of the others in that section, then it does not belong there. In the absence of evidence that this was a mistake on Fanpro's part, there is no reason is disregard it.
There is no need to refer to Shadowtech or any other sourcebook. However, that does not mean that the authors didn't have Shadowtech in mind when they were writing SR4. There is an informative parallel between the two sourcebooks. It is certainly preferable to use past material to help interpret an ambiguity than it is to disregard the ambiguous rule altogether.
Churl Beck
Feb 26 2006, 06:44 PM
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
QUOTE (Churl Beck) | "Cyberware and bioware is available in four grades" is not logically equivalent to "cyberware and bioware is avaiable in four grades and only four grades." |
In fact, it is - that's the meaning of 'available'.
|
Quiz time. How many of these statements are true?
"One grade of cyberware is available."
"Two grades of cyberware are available."
"Three grades of cyberware are available."
"Four grades of cyberware are available."
Answer: all of them. They are not mutually exclusive. Now these:
"One and only one grade of cyberware is available."
"Two and only two grades of cyberware are available."
"Three and only three grades of cyberware are available."
"Four and only four grades of cyberware are available."
Answer: only one of them. They are mutually exclusive.
QUOTE |
QUOTE (Churl Beck) | Why is cultured bioware an exception, by your reading? |
That would be a reverse, since we are starting with logic, and thus not allowed.
|
The measure of a good theory is that it accounts for all of the known facts which it purports to explain. My theory can explain why cultured bioware is described under "Implant Grades" on page 64. My theory can also explain why cultured bioware is listed as an "exception" on page 303. Your theory can do neither. Instead you have to ignore both by insisting (without evidence) that they were mistakes on Fanpro's part.
I would like to give you a chance to tell me otherwise. But if you cannot or will not do it, then there is no reason to give preference to your interpretation over mine.
Thanee
Feb 26 2006, 06:56 PM
However you put it, there simply is no way of telling whether non-cultured bioware is available as cultured bioware and more Essence-friendly, or cultured bioware is simply a fluff term for neural bioware, all changes already reflected in the cost.
But there are no rules about the effect of cultured bioware yet. And it is mentioned, that bioware is available as alpha-/beta-/deltaware, and there are rules about those implant grades, too.
Other than that, there is no way to tell what was actually intended, until the designers actually say what is.
![smile.gif](http://forums.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/smile.gif)
What I don't believe is, that bioware would be available as cultured (i.e. -25% Essence cost) and non-cultured *plus* the alpha-/beta-/deltaware grades. It can only really be either or. As it stands, the latter (which means cultured = pure fluff) is more likely.
Bye
Thanee
Rotbart van Dainig
Feb 26 2006, 06:59 PM
QUOTE (Churl Beck) |
Your theory can do neither. |
That, pal, is wrong - read again.
Basically, your theory needs an assumption build on a reverse to happen - that not only violates not to use reverses in logic, but occams razor, too.
That makes it a very bad theory, no matter whether it seems to explain something.
Churl Beck
Feb 26 2006, 08:18 PM
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
QUOTE (Churl Beck) | Your theory can do neither. |
That, pal, is wrong - read again.
Basically, your theory needs an assumption build on a reverse to happen - that not only violates not to use reverses in logic, but occams razor, too.
Basically, that makes it a very bad theory, no matter whether it seems to explain something.
|
Occams' razor requires that a theory not be multiplied beyond necessity. That means that the theory must account for all of the known facts, and it does not (for the sake of simplicity) allow one to ignore facts which might be deemed inconvenient. Your theory requires regarding sections of the text as either "editing errors" or "useless fluff," thereby ignoring them as rules implementations. Your theory also requires reversing the status quo for what constitutes cultured bioware, which, in any case, puts the burden of proof on you (whether you accept it or not).
Anyway, the next sentence on page 303 says "When purchasing implants of other grades, apply the Essence Cost and Cost adjustments as noted on the Implant Grades table...." The first question is: what does "other grades" refer to? It apparently refers to "non-standard" grades, as inferred from the preceding sentence--i.e., alphaware, betaware, and deltaware.
However, the preceding sentence also states (parenthetically) that the prices for cultured bioware are non-standard. So the sentence in question has no application to cultured bioware. To paraphrase: "When purchasing implants of [any grades beside standard and cultured], apply the Essence Cost and Cost adjustments as noted on the Implant Grades table...."
In other words, regardless of how you understand "cultured bioware," the book nowhere says that it can be upgraded to alpha-, beta-, or delta. Or maybe you think that cultured bioware can be so upgraded, but that the upgrade does not require adjusting the Essence and Cost? In which case "cultured deltaware" is just more fluff for you to ignore.
hyzmarca
Feb 26 2006, 08:52 PM
The rules don't prohibit delta cultured. The text doesn't explain what the bioware grades mean are with enough detail to make an accurate assumption.
Untill it is erated, it is a case of there being no Destiny Table.
Rotbart van Dainig
Feb 26 2006, 09:04 PM
QUOTE (Churl Beck) |
Your theory requires regarding sections of the text as either "editing errors" or "useless fluff," thereby ignoring them as rules implementations. |
Oh, on the contrary - it is a well-proven fact that SR4 is a rushed job containing leftovers, so this is a valid possibility not to ignore.
On the other hand, transition from basic to cultured might be added later on, yet the main book does make grades and cultured not mutually exclusive.
Just in case you missed it: you are ignoring both.
QUOTE (Churl Beck) |
Your theory also requires reversing the status quo for what constitutes cultured bioware, which, in any case, puts the burden of proof on you (whether you accept it or not). |
Not really - the burden of proof still is yours, since SR4 clearly does not care very much about the status quo.
QUOTE (Churl Beck) |
To paraphrase: "When purchasing implants of [any grades beside standard and cultured], apply the Essence Cost and Cost adjustments as noted on the Implant Grades table...." |
Perfect. That would imply that it is absolutly valid to get delta cultured.
redwulf25_ci
Feb 26 2006, 10:16 PM
QUOTE (MaxHunter) |
...Only if availability is limited. As the book goes, you could roll and roll forever until you get the thing. |
Don't forget those rolls take time, sometimes days PER ROLL if the availibilty and price are high enough. I can see it now, three months after a run you wanted some explosives for the fixer calls you up "Hey, you know those explosives you were asking about? They finaly came in!"
Churl Beck
Feb 26 2006, 10:28 PM
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
Oh, on the contrary - it is a well-proven fact that SR4 is a rushed job containing leftovers, so this is a valid possibility not to ignore. |
I'm not asking you to prove that it's a possibility, I'm asking you to prove that it is the case (with this particular rule). You decline every opportunity to do so.
QUOTE |
On the other hand, transition from basic to cultured might be added later on, yet the main book does make grades and cultured not mutually exclusive.
|
At best, the rules are ambiguous. In the absence of further information, you invented a rule that says "cultured bioware can be delta-graded" rather than (more reasonably) deciding the matter by precedent.
QUOTE |
Not really - the burden of proof stills is yours, since SR4 clearly does not care very much about the status quo.
|
Not only have I cited the relevant rules, but I've cited parallel rules from previous editions. If that doesn't show that the status quo hasn't changed, then what will? (To which you counter "that's just a leftover, they must not have mean to put that in."
![ohplease.gif](http://forums.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/ohplease.gif)
)
QUOTE |
QUOTE (Churl Beck) | To paraphrase: "When purchasing implants of [any grades beside standard and cultured], apply the Essence Cost and Cost adjustments as noted on the Implant Grades table...." |
Perfect. That would imply that it is absolutly valid to get delta cultured. ![grinbig.gif](http://forums.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/grinbig.gif) |
Yes, as long as you don't apply Essence and Cost adjustments to it. But then you don't seem to realize why that is ridiculous...
Let me rephrase the sentence in the negative: "Do not apply Essence Cost and Cost adjustments when purchasing standard and cultured implants."
Rotbart van Dainig
Feb 26 2006, 10:51 PM
QUOTE (Churl Beck) |
At best, the rules are ambiguous. |
Well, everything is, obviously.
QUOTE (Churl Beck) |
In the absence of further information, you invented a rule that says "cultured bioware can be delta-graded" rather than (more reasonably) deciding the matter by precedent. |
No need to invent any rule:
QUOTE (SR4 @ p. 303) |
Cyberware and bioware is available in four grades: standard, alphaware, betaware, and deltaware. |
QUOTE |
Not only have I cited the relevant rules, but I've cited parallel rules from previous editions. If that doesn't show that the status quo hasn't changed, then what will? |
The rule above, you are happy to ignore.
![wink.gif](http://forums.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/wink.gif)
QUOTE (Churl Beck) |
To which you counter "that's just a leftover, they must not have mean to put that in." |
Not really - I reminded you that it may either be a leftover, or a hint on rules to come on that matter... if you would have paid more attention, you would even have realized that even the rules you cited do not exclude the possibility of bioware grades, but list cultured as an addition to that system.
QUOTE (Churl Beck) |
Let me rephrase the sentence in the negative: "Do not apply Essence Cost and Cost adjustments when purchasing standard and cultured implants." |
Which, in fact, is still right - as soon as you purchase higher grades, it's alpha/beta/delta bioware.